Who Doesn't Go To Hell?

Petros2015

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The description seems to be of physical bodies. What do you make of that?

To be quite honest, I am not sure - the passage is from the end of Isaiah 66, and it very specifically says "dead" bodies, not "live and writhing in eternal agony" bodies. Although, that doesn't mean that there isn't a consciousness still within them (I personally hope not).

I only came across it yesterday, but it also seems to be the same passage Christ references in Mark 9 when he says

47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.
50 “Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with each other.”

Do we have physical bodies in the afterlife?

I am given to believe that we do "in the age to come". There are many scriptures that indicate a physical resurrection for believers, as well as Christ, who was clearly able to manifest a physical body, wounds and all, and eat. We shall be "like the angels" (Luke 20:36), and they likewise seem to be able to do the same from time to time "many have entertained angels unawares".

So I really don't know what it is we are looking at here at the end of Isaiah or what perspective we are looking at it from.

I think that Time may be like a small puddle that an eternal God looks down on, which can be a bit confusing for us while we are born in it and swim from one part of it to another. In Luke 20:38 "he is not the God of the dead but of the living, for to Him all are alive"
 
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What we consider physical is only a vapor compared to the physical of the next.

We look at everything backwards.
I agree. And frankly, I have rarely met another person that understands that. You just elevated my estimation of you greatly. - lol (for what it's worth)

When did you realize this? When I read C. S. Lewis' The Great Divorce, I then understood this concept.
 
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I only came across it yesterday, but it also seems to be the same passage Christ references in Mark 9 when he says

47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.
50 “Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with each other.”
Wow, thanks. Your whole post was great. I agree.
I did want to focus on this bit though.
Notice that verse 49 says: "Everyone will be salted with fire."

Speculation on my part, but I think everyone will undergo this holy fire purging before we enter the kingdom of heaven. Burning away the wood, hay and stubble of our lives. Leaving the dead body behind to burn up. Those who enter heaven first will be witness to the remains of the Day. (age of ages) I like this description.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
 
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Petros2015

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Speculation on my part, but think everyone will undergo this holy fire purging before we enter the kingdom of heaven. Burning away the wood, hay and stubble of our lives. Leaving the dead body behind to burn up.

Yep, I think so too. Sin may be in some spiritual sense of the word, "combustible"

It is interesting to me the double use of the "salt" for both the faith and love and Spirit of Christ and but then in Mark "salted with Fire". The bodies in Isaiah are more or less "preserved in flame" whereas fire usually destroys something.

Salt adds taste and brings out the flavor of something (so does Fire, come to think of it...), but it's also a preservative (especially back in those days). Christians are "the light and salt of the world"

So it seems to me we shall be preserved by one and in one, or (as in Isaiah) by one and in the other.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I agree. And frankly, I have rarely met another person that understands that. You just elevated my estimation of you greatly. - lol (for what it's worth)

When did you realize this? When I read C. S. Lewis' The Great Divorce, I then understood this concept.

Lol, back atcha!

I'm not sure when. CS Lewis was no doubt instrumental in it. When I want someone to understand it, I steer them to his Space Trilogy, where mention is made of how the 'Oyarsas' of the three planets seem a little off-vertical, yet not them, but the horizontal of earth was what was off. (More of his light reading with heavy implications.)

And, of course, there is plenty of Scripture concerning the impermanence of this temporal reality.

A lot of it came from when I was taught hermeneutics in Seminary, and what to me seemed common sense became a weird science, with the rules still subjectively applied. For example, the human worldview that attributes undeserved substance to this life is obvious when they say that this or that passage is poetic, but prophetic, too, and they show how to tell when that passage begins to be so, and when it is no longer so; and worse, when they say this or that passage is allegorical or symbolic, as if the things of this life were the substantive to which the eternal or spiritual is compared.

To me that is like the story of the blind men in the Kalahari trying to describe the elephant. To one it is a snake (trunk), to another a rope (tail), to another a tree (leg), to another a great hippo. We don't know jack-squat.

Why can't our pearls be representative of the great single pearl that is a gate? Why can't our gold be a poor representation of the streets of gold in the New Jerusalem? Why can't we fathers be a silly picture of the REAL Father in Heaven? Why the spiritual indigestion at the thought of God being a male? —he is not male, but males are masculine, however poorly it be so. I have no problem at all with God being more masculine than I am. He is GOD, after all; He is the very definition of masculine.

There is reason even to speculate, since God is efficient in all things, and absolutely nothing he has done is done for no reason, that EVERYTHING we see is done in its fullness there, here only seen in part. Already we know that the internals of what is visible here are beyond our sight, but there we will know the workings of what is now only temporal to the smallest particle / force. How much greater then, to know the 'internals' of the REAL thing we see in eternity!

It is in the following, that you and I diverge, because I see in this question of substance of the vapor vs the eternal, the 'default' that God is (i.e., were there nothing else, there would be God). Then, whatever he decides to make for himself, is altogether holy, perfect and beautiful, requiring no substituted or replaceable parts, and all other creation is structure and means for building that thing for himself. All the rest of creation is unimportant by comparison, to that one project. Though we, whom he has redeemed, are not worth more than the worst of those that continue to reject him, and no more virtuous in and of ourselves, we are shown mercy because he wants us to learn of his gracious love, in making us members of the Bride of Christ. Compared to God, humanity is nothing, and he owes them nothing. Compared to God, humans don't even register as sentient, within this vapor of existence we now inhabit. Yet he gives us will, and knowledge, to where we are without excuse.
 
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Petros2015

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I'm not sure when. CS Lewis was no doubt instrumental in it. When I want someone to understand it, I steer them to his Space Trilogy, where mention is made of how the 'Oyarsas' of the three planets seem a little off-vertical, yet not them, but the horizontal of earth was what was off. (More of his light reading with heavy implications.)

I love those books, especially Perelandra and Great Divorce.
Also, "'Till We have Faces"

Till We Have Faces Quotes by C.S. Lewis

I haven't read it since High School, but I think it may be time to revisit it again.
 
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It is in the following, that you and I diverge, because I see in this question of substance of the vapor vs the eternal, the 'default' that God is (i.e., were there nothing else, there would be God). Then, whatever he decides to make for himself, is altogether holy, perfect and beautiful, requiring no substituted or replaceable parts, and all other creation is structure and means for building that thing for himself. All the rest of creation is unimportant by comparison, to that one project. Though we, whom he has redeemed, are not worth more than the worst of those that continue to reject him, and no more virtuous in and of ourselves, we are shown mercy because he wants us to learn of his gracious love, in making us members of the Bride of Christ. Compared to God, humanity is nothing, and he owes them nothing. Compared to God, humans don't even register as sentient, within this vapor of existence we now inhabit. Yet he gives us will, and knowledge, to where we are without excuse.
Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful reply. I appreciate it.
Do you think this vaporous physical aspect became that way after the Fall? (original sin) Or was it created that way?
 
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Mark Quayle

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I love those books, especially Perelandra and Great Divorce.
Also, "'Till We have Faces"

Till We Have Faces Quotes by C.S. Lewis

I haven't read it since High School, but I think it may be time to revisit it again.
Definitely. Have you read That Hideous Strength? It's the last of his space trilogy.

Till We Have Faces probably rates as my best source of his quotes. Great book. My favorite of them all is probably, "I saw well why the gods do not speak to us openly, nor let us answer. Till that word can be dug out of us, why should they hear the babble that we think we mean?"
 
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Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful reply. I appreciate it.
Do you think this vaporous physical aspect became that way after the Fall? (original sin) Or was it created that way?

Created that way. Temporal. All of it part of his plan. I don't think this implies in the least that God cannot intrude any way he pleases, even as one of us in appearance, nor even to allow other spirit beings, (angels, demons), to do so likewise.

What's your take on that question, and why?
 
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Petros2015

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Definitely. Have you read That Hideous Strength? It's the last of his space trilogy.

Yep! "Wither" still gives me the chills - I loved they way they got what they were after but it didn't turn out quite the way they were expecting... (don't want to put spoilers here though)
 
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Petros2015

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Also good - in "the Great Divorce" his "guide" is George MacDonald, who wrote many things that inspired him.

"Indeed you are yourself the only riddle. What you call riddles are truths, and seem riddles because you are not true." ~George MacDonald, Lilith

Lilith is considered among the darkest of MacDonald's works, and among the most profound. It is a story concerning the nature of life, death and salvation. Many believe MacDonald is arguing for Christian universalism, or the idea that all will eventually be saved. (Summary from Wikipedia)

(audio book link)

LibriVox
 
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Saint Steven

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What's your take on that question, and why?
It's a mystery to me.
I agree with you that the physical creation was intended to be temporary.
But what was introduced into the whole system when the Fall occurred?
If death came as a result, what was the previous state?

Adam and Eve were tending the garden. Did that mean removing dead leaves from the trees? Or were there no dead leaves since death had not yet been introduced?

God provided animal skins as a covering for the shame (imagined) of Adam and Eve. The end of the previous chapter finds them naked an unashamed. The unanswered question from God is very telling. "Who told you that you were naked?" Who indeed.

And what about the Tree of Life that was there in the garden? And will be in heaven.
The leaves are for the healing of the nations. Which can only be true if all the nations are present and accounted for. And it is something that was in the physical realm that will reappear in the spiritual realm. Not temporary?

Saint Steven said:
Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful reply. I appreciate it.
Do you think this vaporous physical aspect became that way after the Fall? (original sin) Or was it created that way?
 
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Mark Quayle

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It's a mystery to me.
I agree with you that the physical creation was intended to be temporary.
But what was introduced into the whole system when the Fall occurred?
If death came as a result, what was the previous state?

Adam and Eve were tending the garden. Did that mean removing dead leaves from the trees? Or were there no dead leaves since death had not yet been introduced?

God provided animal skins as a covering for the shame (imagined) of Adam and Eve. The end of the previous chapter finds them naked an unashamed. The unanswered question from God is very telling. "Who told you that you were naked?" Who indeed.

And what about the Tree of Life that was there in the garden? And will be in heaven.
The leaves are for the healing of the nations. Which can only be true if all the nations are present and accounted for. And it is something that was in the physical realm that will reappear in the spiritual realm. Not temporary?

Saint Steven said:
Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful reply. I appreciate it.
Do you think this vaporous physical aspect became that way after the Fall? (original sin) Or was it created that way?

Saint Steven said: Do you think this vaporous physical aspect became that way after the Fall? (original sin) Or was it created that way?

I can't say I had really thought of the question, in this way, very often before you asked it. I have always assumed a literal (physical/material) quality to Genesis' creation before the fall, including the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The trees were not, in my thinking, of themselves necessarily anything special but by the choice of their use, God would dispense the qualities or results that he had promised.

Likewise, the fall was, to my thinking, only spiritual, yet God produced the results of their disobedience as he had promised. The era of 'Innocence' the Dispensationalists (no, I'm not a Dispensationalist) separate as such, is called that for a reason. It means almost, "ignorance", spiritually —at least as to good vs evil.

Many of the ideas that people assume about Eden to me are not necessarily Biblical. I don't know that there was no death before the fall. Certainly it seems Adam and Eve knew (or should have known) what God was referring to with his promise that they would surely "die". I take that death to mean a state both spiritual and physical under which death operates as it does now, to imply that Adam and Eve were different from the animals of the Garden in both ways before the fall. Their minds were certainly changed from innocence, and their bodies began the long slow decline we now experience.

As a somewhat side-issue, to me, both the pre-fall and certainly current 'physical' or 'material', temporal, reality almost certainly imply 'Entropy' to me. But the 'Super-reality' of the spiritual does not.

I do find it fascinating that God seems to have set the two trees diametrically opposite in use or meaning—the knowledge of Good and Evil producing death vs the maintenance or increase of life. Sounds kind of like Paul's reasoning concerning the awakening of rebellion upon knowledge of the Law.

The 'healing of the nations' doesn't necessarily imply 'all the nations' (though I think it does mean that, from other Scripture); it is an interesting mystery to me just what that tree is. My particular idea of the New Jerusalem is that it is not just 'dressed as a bride adorned for her husband', but (I'm pretty sure) it is THE Bride of Christ —i.e. us, the church, the elect, those to whom he has shown mercy, God's own dwelling place. (CS Lewis has some good thoughts on the nature of spiritual beings needing/wanting such a place —but I don't remember in which book.) Since the tree is there, and ostensibly 'super-physical' in the way I like to think all things are there, it is a curious question as to whether it was so in the Garden. I don't know. Anyhow, apparently there is a reason it says 'for the nations' and not, 'for whatever individual wishes it'. I find it very interesting how often God deals with people groups, or 'tribes' or 'nations' instead of with individuals. But I know people of the past didn't think like we do now, of the individual being an-end-unto-himself.
 
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Mark Quayle

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"Indeed you are yourself the only riddle. What you call riddles are truths, and seem riddles because you are not true." ~George MacDonald, Lilith
I've heard something like this: That we see contradiction or at least, 'tension' in meaning or paradox, not because there it actually is, but because we are ignorant —sometimes purposely ignorant.
 
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Many of the ideas that people assume about Eden to me are not necessarily Biblical. I don't know that there was no death before the fall. Certainly it seems Adam and Eve knew (or should have known) what God was referring to with his promise that they would surely "die". I take that death to mean a state both spiritual and physical under which death operates as it does now, to imply that Adam and Eve were different from the animals of the Garden in both ways before the fall. Their minds were certainly changed from innocence, and their bodies began the long slow decline we now experience.

As a somewhat side-issue, to me, both the pre-fall and certainly current 'physical' or 'material', temporal, reality almost certainly imply 'Entropy' to me. But the 'Super-reality' of the spiritual does not.
This is an interesting discussion. Thanks.

In reading this bit it occurred to me that trees in the garden may have had "dead" leaves that need to come off the tree to make room for new ones. A sign of growth rather than death. The same with A&E before the Fall. Hair and fingernails would grow and need to be trimmed, making room for more hair and nails. Perhaps the oldest profession was salon work, rather than what is usually claimed. - lol

In the last sentence of your first paragraph above you write:
"Their minds were certainly changed from innocence, and their bodies began the long slow decline we now experience."

Does that indicate a massive change in the physical universe? What was once kept in ageless stasis now is in decline?
 
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Petros2015

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With my luck, I suppose those things were considered heretical. - lol

"I'm used to being a sinner, but I'm not sure how I'd feel about being a heretic. I might enjoy it too much" ;)
 
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"I'm used to being a sinner, but I'm not sure how I'd feel about being a heretic. I might enjoy it too much" ;)
Come on in, the water's fine. - lol

Thanks for the video link. That was good.
 
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