Who Does Baptism Benefit?

[Jonaitis]

Why does baptism only benefit the person being baptized and not the believing congregation who witnesses (and participates) in the sacrament?

Do a believer benefit in the Lord's Table who doesn't participate, but observe?

 

[Tree of Life]

Honestly? I have thought about this for years, and I do in fact lean toward the idea it blesses all who are present at the baptism, since it isn't shown to the baptized alone but all who watch.

I agree! I think that this makes biblical sense and makes sense of the concept of "sacrament".

Let me ask another question.

If baptism is a means of grace for all believers - including those who witness baptism - is the conveyance of this grace tied to the moment of administration? In other words, is it possible to benefit from witnessing a baptism a few days later, upon reflecting on baptism's meaning?

 

[Tree of Life]

Do a believer benefit in the Lord's Table who doesn't participate, but observe?

Yes and no. Observing is participating, as part of the participation is the observation of the giving and the taking of bread and wine. But if one does not receive the bread and wine, he does not receive the full benefit of the sacrament in that way. But he may still benefit from the Lord's Supper by simply reflecting upon previous Suppers he has attended and received. In the Reformed view, the conveyance of grace is not tied to the moment of administration.

 

[Jonaitis]

Let me ask another question.

If baptism is a means of grace for all believers - including those who witness baptism - is the conveyance of this grace tied to the moment of administration? In other words, is it possible to benefit from witnessing a baptism a few days later, upon reflecting on baptism's meaning?

Interesting question...

I'll have to think more about that one, what do you believe?

 

[Albion]

Yes and no. Observing is participating, as part of the participation is the observation of the giving and the taking of bread and wine. But if one does not receive the bread and wine, he does not receive the full benefit of the sacrament in that way. But he may still benefit from the Lord's Supper by simply reflecting upon previous Suppers he has attended and received. In the Reformed view, the conveyance of grace is not tied to the moment of administration.

Yes, we probably need better guidance about what we mean by the word benefits.

 

[Tree of Life]

Interesting question...

I'll have to think more about that one, what do you believe?

That the grace conveyed through the sacraments is not tied to the moment of administration. We may experience grace in the moment we celebrate, but the grace may also come later as we reflect upon the event.

This is part of the reason why it makes sense to baptize the children of believers. All those who believe in the congregation benefit from witnessing the baptism. And the baptized child may benefit from their own baptism later in life as they reflect upon baptism and realize that they, too, have been baptized.

 

[Tree of Life]

Yes, we probably need better guidance about what we mean by the word benefits.

In the Reformed view, the grace that is conveyed in the sacraments is not a converting grace, but a confirming grace. Baptism does not regenerate (converting grace), but it does assure believers that they are indeed regenerate (confirming grace). The sacraments are not about getting salvation, but about getting the assurance of salvation.

 

[Albion]

Hmm. I would agree that receiving a sacrament does not confer salvation upon anyone, but the grace conveyed by the sacrament has to be different--or more meaningful--than what might be said to come from just feeling edified (or reflective or something like that) from watching!

 

[Tree of Life]

Hmm. I would agree that receiving a sacrament does not confer salvation upon anyone, but the grace conveyed by the sacrament has to be different--or more meaningful--than what might be said to come from just feeling edified (or reflective or something like that) from watching!

How about "assurance"?

 

[Albion]

How about "assurance"?

Not a lot different, is it?

 

[Jonaitis]

That the grace conveyed through the sacraments is not tied to the moment of administration. We may experience grace in the moment we celebrate, but the grace may also come later as we reflect upon the event.

This is part of the reason why it makes sense to baptize the children of believers. All those who believe in the congregation benefit from witnessing the baptism. And the baptized child may benefit from their own baptism later in life as they reflect upon baptism and realize that they, too, have been baptized.

Your first paragraph makes sense, because any amount of blessing conveyed isn't only confined to the actual administration of it (although the full benefit would be the actual witnessing of it administered).

Your second paragraph is a syllogistic fallacy to prove a doctrine absent from Scripture.

 

[Tree of Life]

Not a lot different, is it?

I think that the biblical concept of assurance is stronger than a general feeling of edification.

 

[Tree of Life]

Your second paragraph is a syllogistic fallacy to prove a doctrine absent from Scripture.

What is a syllogistic fallacy? The doctrine of applying sacraments to the children of believers is not absent from Scripture. But I was not attempting to prove this doctrine here, only to provide a partial rationale for it.

 

[Jonaitis]

What is a syllogistic fallacy? The doctrine of applying sacraments to the children of believers is not absent from Scripture. But I was not attempting to prove this doctrine here, only to provide a partial rationale for it.

You're trying to reach a false conclusion using certain reasoning that may be true.

 

[Albion]

I think that the biblical concept of assurance is stronger than a general feeling of edification.

Let me put it this way...if there is a sense of assurance, it is not a special benefit obtained thanks to watching a sacrament be received by someone else. It would be about the same IMO as whatever you feel after seeing a great sunset or a beautiful cathedral. Yes, it may put you in mind of higher, spiritual, verities, but it is only remotely related to what the sacraments were ordained for.

 

[Tree of Life]

You're trying to reach a false conclusion using certain reasoning that may be true.

Perhaps you're thinking of a non-sequitur or a simply unsound argument. Either way, I'm not making an argument. I'm just showing how the concept of a sacrament is very coherent with infant baptism.

 

[Jonaitis]

Let me put it this way...if there is a sense of assurance, it is not thanks to watching a sacrament be received by someone else. It would be about the same IMO as whatever you feel after seeing a great sunset or a beautiful cathedral. Yes, it may put you in mind of higher, spiritual, verities, but it is only remotely related to what the sacraments were ordained for.

However, watching a great sunset or beautiful cathedral isn't pictures of the Word as we see in the Lord's Supper and Baptism.

 

[Tree of Life]

Let me put it this way...if there is a sense of assurance, it is not thanks to watching a sacrament be received by someone else. It would be about the same IMO as whatever you feel after seeing a great sunset or a beautiful cathedral. Yes, it may put you in mind of higher, spiritual, verities, but it is only remotely related to what the sacraments were ordained for.

I should say that it's very important that we participate in the sacraments in order to receive their confirming grace. But we participate in baptism only once. When we see a baby or anyone else get baptized, those who have also been baptized and who believe in Christ experience the blessings of that sacrament as they reflect on their own baptism.

 

[Albion]

However, watching a great sunset or beautiful cathedral isn't pictures of the Word as we see in the Lord's Supper and Baptism.

Well, then substitute a painting by Michaelangelo, if we want the comparison to be between explicitly religious scenes.

 

[Tree of Life]

Well, then substitute a painting by Michaelangelo, if we want the comparison to be between explicitly religious scenes.

Even then, the sacraments are what they are because they are specifically ordained and blessed by Christ. The Spirit has not promised to meet us in a Michaelangelo painting, but he has promised to meet us in the Lord's Supper.