Who did Moses chat with?

[JohnRabbit]

But you keep forgetting what law is being talked about. You're mixing things in your big mixing bowl.

what law is being talked about, and why won't you answer me on ps 119:172?

 

[JohnRabbit]

Gee....ummmm why don't u know it?

Ok...the promise fulfillment came after the law, hence no more tutor of gal 3:22-25.

19Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary



So chronologically, the no sin, no transgression of 4;15, was after the law, where the no sin no law of Romans 5;13 was before the law, as it clearly says. SIN WAS IN THE WORLD, FROM ADAM, BEFORE THE LAW.

UNTIL 3;19..UNTIL...THE PROMISE.

Done!

ok, i see what you're saying now.

why don't you just say things like this from the jump!

i just don't see it that way.

i see it as, the "ten" being in existence before sinai even at the time of adam.

the "ten" define sin (1jn 3:4).

the covenant made with israel involved the "ten" and the statutes and judgments.

later, they were given the ceremonial ritual laws (the tutor), which i believe, paul calls the "works of law". these were the washings, the sacrifices, and the like. these laws were temporary, only until messiah. they foreshadowed the things to come.

these are the laws that were added as i see the scriptures.

so, when i read "sin was in the world before the law" or "until the law", that means that the law existed and people were transgressing the law - the "ten".

sin is not imputed were there's no law, but there was a flood and all flesh died according to the bible, save noah and his crew.

that tells me that sin was imputed!

therefore there had to be a law that these who died in the flood transgressed.

 

[from scratch]

what law is being talked about, and why won't you answer me on ps 119:172?

So what do you want me to say about your verse? Do you want me to say that murder, lying, theft and adultery are righteous acts or something? All of those activities are preformed from and by the lust of the flesh according to Gal 5.

 

[from scratch]

ok, i see what you're saying now.

why don't you just say things like this from the jump!

i just don't see it that way.

i see it as, the "ten" being in existence before sinai even at the time of adam.

the "ten" define sin (1jn 3:4).

the covenant made with israel involved the "ten" and the statutes and judgments.

later, they were given the ceremonial ritual laws (the tutor), which i believe, paul calls the "works of law". these were the washings, the sacrifices, and the like. these laws were temporary, only until messiah. they foreshadowed the things to come.

these are the laws that were added as i see the scriptures.

so, when i read "sin was in the world before the law" or "until the law", that means that the law existed and people were transgressing the law - the "ten".

sin is not imputed were there's no law, but there was a flood and all flesh died according to the bible, save noah and his crew.

that tells me that sin was imputed!

therefore there had to be a law that these who died in the flood transgressed.

I'm curious John. How does before come to mean current? My thing is that before means previously to something. I put what I'm talking about in your post in black.

 

[from scratch]

The 10 Commandments are a spiritual law...they existed at the creation of man...careful study of the scriptures...you can find all 10 commandments before mt sinai...and each transgression is called a sin!

Provide the references. Implication doesn't work for support.

 

[from scratch]

no!, the bible says so..."...where there is no law there is no transgression."

Where does it say some one was charged and punished according to the law. Now go grab Cain. And I will give you Abraham.

 

[from scratch]

glad you didn't you might have burned yourself...

No I would have had to clean my new puter screen after snorting hot coffee through my nose. Just not a real comfortable experience.

 

[from scratch]

I dont understand why they just don't believe their bible.

Look at who is speaking above. It is a good idea to read and believe all the Bible.

 

[Fulltruthministry]

ok, i see what you're saying now.

why don't you just say things like this from the jump!

i just don't see it that way.

i see it as, the "ten" being in existence before sinai even at the time of adam.

the "ten" define sin (1jn 3:4).

the covenant made with israel involved the "ten" and the statutes and judgments.

later, they were given the ceremonial ritual laws (the tutor), which i believe, paul calls the "works of law". these were the washings, the sacrifices, and the like. these laws were temporary, only until messiah. they foreshadowed the things to come.

these are the laws that were added as i see the scriptures.

so, when i read "sin was in the world before the law" or "until the law", that means that the law existed and people were transgressing the law - the "ten".

sin is not imputed were there's no law, but there was a flood and all flesh died according to the bible, save noah and his crew.

that tells me that sin was imputed!

therefore there had to be a law that these who died in the flood transgressed.

I think the number 10 has a different relevance also: For me it means a set thing: God told Israel that they had sinned against Him 10 times:
Showing that their sins reached a limit according to what God was willing to allow:
God also says 10 woman will be at one stove: Again showing a set judgment in the 10; showing that no matter how many women are at the stove; famine will come:
Or showing that no matter how many times they sinned; a judgment comes in the 10 in regards to Israel in the wilderness:

Thus by the command being in the 10; it also shows that Gods will is to be obeyed fully or COMPLETE; THUS a set judgment HAS to come by the command: Since man has not the ability to obey of himself: Thus sin has to be atoned for:
Thus life can know see that our existence is better found in the One that formed us; we see that by His Will shall we live; Thus we are made children in justice; God is just to us and Himself by allowing us to see our selves outside of Him, thus finding room to enjoy what we are given: Finding contentment:
Paul used an example of covetousness;
He said he wouldnt have known what it was if the law hadnt said not to covet:
Thats what God teaches;
He teaches us how to have the ability to live in the presence of a God that cant have doubt stand before Him.

And I think the law was given before Moses: Or a law that one can consider the law in its instance:
Being that God DID give man a command:
And it became a transgression when the command was broken and they ate:

ALL of this shows us that God brings creation into Himself by showing it that nothing good can move outside of Himself:
Thus the command in itself brought about the desire to sin: Thus showing men; that we were given a birth; and we learn where that birth comes from through the purpose of God; through the unfolding of life, and the allowance of sin:
Thus since we were in God before the world; God KNEW US:
Then that which is known has to see the breath of God that foresaw how it became known:
By realizing who it is without God; allows it to come freely into God as a child:
Thus the law was given so that mercy could abound; or death was allowed reign so that life can be known; being that anything not of life is death: Thus whats concealed in life has not only found, but also been made aware of its existence in the light of that life: ITS JUST
Amen

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by YosemiteSam glad you didn't you might have burned yourself...

No I would have had to clean my new puter screen after snorting hot coffee through my nose. Just not a real comfortable experience.

I have done that numerous times on GT

 

[Fulltruthministry]

Obviously you don't see what is written here..."for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given...stop...what law?...continue, "but sin is not counted where there is no law"...stop...we know that Adam sinned...we know that Sodom and Gomorrah sinned...so sin in the last part was counted!!!...God flooded the world because of sin...so before whatever law Paul speaks of in the first part of the verse had to come or "was added" to an already existing law.

Then we would also have take into account that the bible says that Jesus went a ministered to the souls in prison from the days of noah:
So it seems that were given a command also; yet they were yet to recieve a word that reclects or embodies the revelation of the Christ; or the core expectation of peace amoung men through Gods Word Spoken and presented to them; thats what the command does: It shows that the will of God for men henges upon having love for eachother: [will continue with that..]

Yet God does say the people in the days of noah were disobedient:
Thus they were given a command to repent through noah:
They were given a reflection of having the abibity to be saved through water; or the reflection of what the cleansing of Christ represents in regards to water: or a pledge to follow God; thus we have the cleansing:
Thus all they needed was to be ministed to in regards to having a chance to show reverance to Gods Spoken Word; or Written Command:

1 Peter 3:18-20

King James Version (KJV)



18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

 

[Fulltruthministry]

Its hard to get a feel for where the thread has went:
It seems that people are at odds with how there is no law against the fruits of the Spirit:
No sure:
It seems that GOd says against these there is no law; because in those we obey the law; but not by the law; but rather through the power that gives us the fruit: or makes us fruitful:

 

[JohnRabbit]

So what do you want me to say about your verse? Do you want me to say that murder, lying, theft and adultery are righteous acts or something? All of those activities are preformed from and by the lust of the flesh according to Gal 5.

i'm not you!

i don't know what you're gonna say, that's why i asked.

 

[Fulltruthministry]

I'm intersted in understanding Who Moses talked with?

Is there any Scriptural evidence for one or the other in the trinity doctrine?

Or is John saying that The Father and Jesus are the same Individual for lack of a better expression?

I'm looking at and for Scriptural evidence. You can provide anything elseyou like but only with support meaning you can use things outside the Bible. I just want to know what you base your idea on.

I really think the full answer isnt there:
It seems that the law was given by God through an angel when we consider everything written:
We know the law was given by God;
yet Gods Spoke through an angelic presence; just as He lead Israel through an angel:
Thus what the Father Spoke was the Son:
I find comfort in backing that up with something that happened to Abraham:

Abram spoke to the Lord:
And yet the Lord spoke in the Lord:
This is what im referring too:


Gen 18
17 Then the LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.


SO RIGHT HERE; one can say that the Lord was talking to the other two angels: its says: THE LORD SAID:
yet when we continue to read: We see that not only did the Lord say He will come down and see:
But we also see that Moses was left standing with the Lord:
So there was the Lord talking to the Lord; yet one was on high;
The Father speaking in His Son:
Thus its the Father that said I will go down and see this sight:
Being that the Lord or Word(Son) of God stayed with Abraham:


19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”
20 Then the LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”
22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD.



I WILL GO DOWN AND SEE
So something was speaking in the Lord from on High'
Thus we have a truth: No one has seen the Father and lived;
Being that the Father may have went down to look as it is written:

I see the same power with Moses:
We have an instance that says Moses was face to face with God:
We have Jesus saying that no one has seen the Father:
And then we have the Father covering Moses from seeing His Presence

The Son and the Father; with the Fathers will being revealed; through the Son; with angels presence to minister for the Son:
Angels on the mount;
ministering with there presence; as the Father gave a Word through His Word:
Or as God gave a Word through the person of His Son: HIS WORD:
The lamb was slain before the foundation of the world:

I ASK YOU:
Since Jesus rose to the right hand:
Has He also not been eternally at the right hand:

Jesus said return me to the Glory I had in You before the world began:
Thus the presence of the Son was in the Father eternal:
God says through the church the manifold wisdom of God is known in Christ;
and this is said to be an eternal purpose:
CHRIST ETERNAL in the FATHER:

We as humans have no word or study for that relationship:
God took what the Word did on the cross and made it eternal before the Son was even manifest through the Cross:
ITS NO WORD FOR THAT
He made the Son eternal even before the Word became the Son:
JESUS IS THAT PRECIOUS TO THE FATHER
It shows how good GOD IS:
And how perfect HIS WILL IS

HE IS what HE IS
A GREAT AND AWESOME GOD

 

[Frogster]

ok, i see what you're saying now.

why don't you just say things like this from the jump!

i just don't see it that way.

i see it as, the "ten" being in existence before sinai even at the time of adam.

the "ten" define sin (1jn 3:4).

the covenant made with israel involved the "ten" and the statutes and judgments.

later, they were given the ceremonial ritual laws (the tutor), which i believe, paul calls the "works of law". these were the washings, the sacrifices, and the like. these laws were temporary, only until messiah. they foreshadowed the things to come.

these are the laws that were added as i see the scriptures.

so, when i read "sin was in the world before the law" or "until the law", that means that the law existed and people were transgressing the law - the "ten".

sin is not imputed were there's no law, but there was a flood and all flesh died according to the bible, save noah and his crew.

that tells me that sin was imputed!

therefore there had to be a law that these who died in the flood transgressed.

Did those in the flood, have the mosaic law yet?


John, do u understand yet, that sin entered the world, through Adam, and it was not a Mosaic transgression?


Why did sin and death spread to all, even though they did not have the law, or do the sin of Adam? It is right in 5.

If we understand that all were righteous by the act of the second Adam, why don't you understand all were sinners because of the first adam?

Caveat though, I think you think we were made righteous by works though..lol...

 

[JohnRabbit]

I'm curious John. How does before come to mean current? My thing is that before means previously to something. I put what I'm talking about in your post in black.

i've already stated that i believe the "ten" were in existent from the beginning.

so, the law that was before or until, 430 years later even, was the ceremonial - works of law, that was added.

these laws required physical labor to accomplish.

not like the "ten", which requires no physical labor, or physical work to accomplish.

so what was added was a "temporal law", like washings, which showed the need to be cleansed by God's Holy Spirit.

there were sacrifices which pointed to the sacrifice of the Christ.

these were laws that were added because of transgressions. and they transgressed the "ten", because they define sin, (gen 39:9, 1jn 3:4).

look:

Hebrews 9:1,10(NKJV)
1Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary...10concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.

look at what to with these ordinance were concerned. fleshly (physical) ordinances, "works of law", by which no man will be justified.


Ephesians 2:15(NKJV)
15having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

that law served it's purpose. foreshadowed the things to come and was done away.

for the law is spiritual, the part that God, Himself wrote.

God didn't write fleshly ordinances!

it defines sin.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Did those in the flood, have the mosaic law yet?


John, do u understand yet, that sin entered the world, through Adam, and it was not a Mosaic transgression?


Why did sin and death spread to all, even though they did not have the law, or do the sin of Adam? It is right in 5.

moses wasn't born yet, as far as i know.

 

[Frogster]

moses wasn't born yet, as far as i know.

yes, and the law he gave em, was not in existence yet.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Did those in the flood, have the mosaic law yet?

John, do u understand yet, that sin entered the world, through Adam, and it was not a Mosaic transgression?

Caveat though, I think you think we were made righteous by works though..lol...

moses wasn't born yet, as far as i know.

Coincidentally Moses was drawn out of the water, just as Noah and his family were saved from the flood waters

NKJV) Exodus 2:10 And the child grew, and she brought him to Pharaoh's daughter, and he became her son. So she called his name Moses, saying, "Because I drew him out of the water."

NKJV) 1 Peter 3:20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while [the] ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7530217/
My Global Flood Challenge

 

[Frogster]

i've already stated that i believe the "ten" were in existent from the beginning.

so, the law that was before or until, 430 years later even, was the ceremonial - works of law, that was added.

these laws required physical labor to accomplish.

not like the "ten", which requires no physical labor, or physical work to accomplish.

so what was added was a "temporal law", like washings, which showed the need to be cleansed by God's Holy Spirit.

there were sacrifices which pointed to the sacrifice of the Christ.

these were laws that were added because of transgressions. and they transgressed the "ten", because they define sin, (gen 39:9, 1jn 3:4).

look:

Hebrews 9:1,10(NKJV)
1Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary...10concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.

look at what to with these ordinance were concerned. fleshly (physical) ordinances, "works of law", by which no man will be justified.


Ephesians 2:15(NKJV)
15having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

that law served it's purpose. foreshadowed the things to come and was done away.

for the law is spiritual, the part that God, Himself wrote.

God didn't write fleshly ordinances!

it defines sin.

sorry john, as far as eph 2;15, the law was one, and we were not dead in ceremonial ordinances! the 10 were in the law.


1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins