Who checked?

[Uphill Battle]

funny thing is, even if she DID bear Christ without the breaking of her hymen, that does not lead to the conclusion that she remained ever virgin.

So, pointing to this passage, you cannot use it in support of ever virginity.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

funny thing is, even if she DID bear Christ without the breaking of her hymen, that does not lead to the conclusion that she remained ever virgin.

So, pointing to this passage, you cannot use it in support of ever virginity.

true. I am sure she is rolling in her grave that people are talking about her hymen! I mean COME on...what have people stooped to? Nothing better to talk about? this thread is ridiculous.

 

[Uphill Battle]

true. I am sure she is rolling in her grave that people are talking about her hymen! I mean COME on...what have people stooped to? Nothing better to talk about? this thread is ridiculous.

in all fairness, I brought it up.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

nooooo. that isn't what I said. The condition change is the Age. not the remaining.

at the end of the age, the relationship we have with Jesus will Change. We will be with him in a different manner. (unless you'd like to say what we have now, in this age, is the same as we will have in the next!)

But that is not what scriptue says. It doesn't say that the relationship will change, nor does it specify what the Age actually is and when it ends. The point is that, in this scripture passage, "until" simply means 'right on through.' In point of fact, until (eos) is an indefinite term.

 

[Benedicta00]

Protevangelion of James http://ministries.tliquest.net/theology/apocryphas/subapostolic/pjames.htm

translated by M.R. James

Origen mentions the Book of James (and the Gospel of Peter) as stating that the ' brethren of the Lord' were sons of Joseph by a former wife. This is the first mention of it, and shows us that the book is as old as the second century. To collect later references to it is unnecessary.

It is generally agreed that the story of the death of Zacharias (chs. xxii-xxiv) does not properly belong to the text. Origen and other early writers give a different account of the cause of His death: it was, they say, because, after the Nativity, he still allowed Mary to take her place among the virgins in the Temple.

Difficulty is also caused by the sudden introduction of Joseph as the narrator in ch. xviii. 2 sqq. We cannot be sure whether this means that a fragment of a 'Joseph-apocryphon' has been introduced at this point; or, if so, how far it extends. We are sure, from a sentence of Clement of Alexandria, that some story of a midwife being present at the Nativity was current in the second century.

We have the book in the original Greek and in several oriental' versions, the oldest of which is the Syriac. But, oddly enough, there is no Latin version. The matter is found in an expanded and altered form in the 'Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew', but we have yet to find an old Latin translation of the present text. Such a thing seems to have existed, for a book identifiable with ours is condemned in the Gelasian Decree.

In the early chapters the Old Testament is extensively drawn upon, and imitated; but the author is not familiar with Jewish life or usages.

The best recent edition of this book is a French one, by Amann. There is as yet no really critical edition of the text, in which all manuscripts and versions are made use of. I follow Tischendorf's in the main.

From New Advent here is the graphic mention of it.

And the widwife said to him: Is this true? And Joseph said to her: Come and see. And the midwife went away with him. And they stood in the place of the cave, and behold a luminous cloud overshadowed the cave. And the midwife said: My soul has been magnified this day, because my eyes have seen strange things—because salvation has been brought forth to Israel. And immediately the cloud disappeared out of the cave, and a great light shone in the cave, so that the eyes could not bear it. And in a little that light gradually decreased, until the infant appeared, and went and took the breast from His mother Mary. And the midwife cried out, and said: This is a great day to me, because I have seen this strange sight. And the midwife went forth out of the cave, and Salome met her. And she said to her: Salome, Salome, I have a strange sight to relate to you: a virgin has brought forth—a thing which her nature admits not of. Then said Salome: As the Lord my God lives, unless I thrust in my finger, and search the parts, I will not believe that a virgin has brought forth.

20. And the midwife went in, and said to Mary: Show yourself; for no small controversy has arisen about you. And Salome put in her finger, and cried out, and said: Woe is me for mine iniquity and mine unbelief, because I have tempted the living God; and, behold, my hand is dropping off as if burned with fire. And she bent her knees before the Lord, saying: O God of my fathers, remember that I am the seed of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob; do not make a show of me to the sons of Israel, but restore me to the poor; for You know, O Lord, that in Your name I have performed my services, and that I have received my reward at Your hand. And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by her, saying to her: Salome, Salome, the Lord has heard you. Put your hand to the infant, and carry it, and you will have safety and joy. And Salome went and carried it, saying: I will worship Him, because a great King has been born to Israel. And, behold, Salome was immediately cured, and she went forth out of the cave justified. And behold a voice saying: Salome, Salome, tell not the strange things you have seen, until the child has come into Jerusalem.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm

 

[Benedicta00]

funny thing is, even if she DID bear Christ without the breaking of her hymen, that does not lead to the conclusion that she remained ever virgin.

So, pointing to this passage, you cannot use it in support of ever virginity.

XIX. I And behold a woman coming down from the hillcountry, and she said to me: Man, whither goest thou ? And I said: I seek a midwife of the Hebrews. And she answered and said unto me: Art thou of Israel ? And I said unto her: Yea. And she said: And who is she that bringeth forth in the cave ? And I said: She that is betrothed unto me. And she said to me: Is she not thy wife? And I said to her: It is Mary that was nurtured up in the temple of the Lord: and I received her to wife by lot: and she is not my wife, but she hath conception by the Holy Ghost.

Hmmm...

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

in all fairness, I brought it up.

I realize...but the point is the same. In the end...who really cares? She gave us the Perfect Lamb, that takes away the sin of the world. It is all about Him. NOT His mother, if she was a virgin all her life or not or anything else to do with her really. It is about Jesus and HIM crucified.

 

[Benedicta00]

The protoevangellion of Saint James, oftn claimed to be of a date late than 300 AD, mysteriously was spoken of by Iraneus CA 180 AD. Iraneus had, of course, a marvelous prophetic gift fo commenting on writings not yet written.

Exactly...

 

[Latreia]

Can we give that poor horse a nice little funeral now?

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Can we give that poor horse a nice little funeral now?

OH no, this is the debate that never ends...it goes on and on my friend...some people started talking about it, not knowing when it would end............sorry...got that little ditty in my head. The funny thing is, no one is really listening to each other....and on and on and on it goes.........

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Reader Iakovos, have I ever told you that Moses and I just think you're the bomb diggety?

Melody, weren't you banned under the name Judah's Praise? I didn't know you were allowed to re-register under a new username.

LK

sweetheart, I was banned, it was lifted....and I changed my name. Sorry to disappoint you! What does that matter...and HOW did you even know? I didn't re register. a good friend gave me enough blessings to change my name..and what does that have to do with the conversation?

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

wow. something I said?

 

[Latreia]

wow. something I said?

Steady.

I do hereby pass the Crown of The Queen of the Threadkillers on to you and wear it as proudly and as regally as have I for sooo long....

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Steady.

I do hereby pass the Crown of The Queen of the Threadkillers on to you and wear it as proudly and as regally as have I for sooo long....

WOW! WHat an honor! thank you so much. I will wear it with pride!

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

There is a belief among EO that I have seen whereas they claim that Mary, upon giving birth to Christ, had her hymen remain intact, despite the birth.


Can I ask how was this even remotely verified?


****edited to keep the dead horse from being beaten again.

I have been away, or I would have responded earlier.

It was I who stated this in the other thread that you had mentioned. Please feel free to use the quote as you wish, it does not bother me.

In the Protoevangelium of James, Mary is said to have an actual virgin birth, in which the baby Jesus is born without any change to Mary’s body. This miracle is tested by a friend of the midwife, Salome, who reaches in and certifies that Mary’s hymen is still intact, whereupon God withers her hand for having doubted.

Here is the source.

From: http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-08/anf08-67.htm

19. And I saw a woman coming down from the hill-country, and she said to me: O man, whither art thou going? And I said: I am seeking an Hebrew midwife. And she answered and said unto me: Art thou of Israel? And I said to her: Yes. And she said: And who is it that is bringing forth in the cave? And I said: A woman betrothed to me. And she said to me: Is she not thy wife? And I said to her: It is Mary that was reared in the temple of the Lord, and I obtained her by lot as my wife. And yet she is not my wife, but has conceived of the Holy Spirit.
And the widwife said to him: Is this true? And Joseph said to her: Come and see. And the midwife went away with him. And they stood in the place of the cave, and behold a luminous cloud overshadowed the cave. And the midwife said: My soul has been magnified this day, because mine eyes have seen strange things-because salvation has been brought forth to Israel. And immediately the cloud disappeared out of the cave, and a great light shone in the cave, so that the eyes could not bear it. And in a little that light gradually decreased, until the infant appeared, and went and took the breast from His mother Mary. And the midwife cried out, and said: This is a great day to me, because I have seen this strange sight. And the midwife went forth out of the cave, and Salome met her. And she said to her: Salome, Salome, I have a strange sight to relate to thee: a virgin has brought forth-a thing which her nature admits not of. Then said Salome: As the Lord my God liveth, unless I thrust in my finger, and search the parts, I will not believe that a virgin has brought forth.

20. And the midwife went in, and said to Mary: Show thyself; for no small controversy has arisen about thee. And Salome put in her finger, and cried out, and said: Woe is me for mine iniquity and mine unbelief, because I have tempted the living God; and, behold, my hand is dropping off as if burned with fire. And she bent her knees before the Lord, saying: O God of my fathers, remember that I am the seed of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob; do not make a show of me to the sons of Israel, but restore me to the poor; for Thou knowest, O Lord, that in Thy name I have performed my services, and that I have received my reward at Thy hand. And, behold, an angel of the Lord stood by her, saying to her: Salome, Salome, the Lord hath heard thee. Put thy hand to the infant, and carry it, and thou wilt have safety and joy. And Salome went and carried it, saying: I will worship Him, because a great King has been born to Israel. And, behold, Salome was immediately cured, and she went forth out of the cave justified. And behold a voice saying: Salome, Salome, tell not the strange things thou hast seen, until the child has come into Jerusalem.


Forgive me...

 

[Iollain]

nm

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

What are you now the tattle-taler of CF?

well, since the ban was expired in the beginning of January..she is one late on the draw...and 2,I would love to know how she knew about that. I don't think that is 'public' information.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Anybody have a link on this writing.
Isn't it a gnostic writing

We need to understand the reason some scriptures were included in The Bible and others were not.

In a nutshell...

Thousands of documents were brought to The Church for review as if they were true or not. MANY of them were false doctrines, but not all of them.

In the end, it was decided that those documents that had been read aloud in the Churches from when they were written until now would be called canon. This was done so that all the Churches everywhere would be able to read the same scriptures on the same days. Thus travelers from one area to another would not see a difference in worship structure from one place to the next. These texts would be read throughout the calendar year of The Church and repeated every year in the same fashion.

Many other "true" documents were there, including the "Protoevangelium of James", written by St. James himself recounting the story of Christ's birth. (Remember that St. James was about 15 when Christ was born.) It was not included as scripture, not because anyone doubted it as being authentic, but rather that it had not been read in the Churches as part of the calendar year celebrations of the Church.

This document is still, to this day, held as being true and accurate along with others that were just not included.

Thousands were rejected as false, few were kept.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

So... the answer to the O.P. is

Salome the midwife.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

OF Course they hymen would still be in tact at that point. DUH! Doesn't say anything about AFTER that. So a whole theology is built around that one statement. i would be shocked too to see a virgin deliver...like that just plain stands to reason!

That section of the text came after Christ's birth.

Forgive me...