Who checked?

[HisBelovedMelody]

I believe 1Timothy that says the Word is ENOUGH.

 

[Kenpo]

I did not say nor infer that it is scripture.

I said, not everything that "WAS" cononized as scripture is "NOT" recognized by Protestants as being such. IOW ~ The KJV is incomplete.

So the question turns to you as well... "How do you determine which early writings are authoritative and which are not?"

As for my answer... It's simple. I trust The Church of Antioch.

If, 150 years from now, someone decides that even fewer books should have been in "The Bible" and publish it as authorative... will you be proud of your great-grandchildren for upholing the new authorative "Bible", or rather the one you held to?

Forgive me...

I am sorry perhaps I could have been more clear. I realized that you are pointing out that many protestant churches do not accept the Apocrypha. That was not my point. That is not what I was referring to.

What I was trying to ask is where do you draw the line as to what is authoritative or not? What you quoted is not accepted as Scripture even by your Church. Why is it any different that anything else that may have been written at the time? You said yourself that you are free to "consider" it. But when a doctrine is built on something does that not give that writing the same authority as Scripture? If it does then why was this particular writing not also Scripture?

 

[Kenpo]

By the way it is not my intention to be contentios here I am simply asking questions. Please do not take them as confrontational.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

IF that is how you live your life....so be it. BUT the Word OF GOD says HE ROSE on the third day. PERIOD. They can't find His body....so...give me a break. What disgusts me is how Scripture is SO extremely twisted so your house of cards (Doctrine) doesn't fall.

Are you offended again? You seem to be tortured by just being here.

I just wanted you to know that written words are not proof of anything. You have faith, that's good enough.

Why do you kick against the pricks?

*OrthodoxyUSA offers prayers for HisBelovedMelody's peace of mind.*

Forgive me...

 

[Benedicta00]

I believe 1Timothy that says the Word is ENOUGH.

No, doesn't say that.

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Are you offended again? You seem to be tortured by just being here.

I just wanted you to know that written words are not proof of anything. You have faith, that's good enough.

Why do you kick against the pricks?

*OrthodoxyUSA offers prayers for HisBelovedMelody's peace of mind.*

Forgive me...

My peace of mind is fine..and thank you for the prayers..your sarcasm is duly noted...and yes, you are forgiven....

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

No, doesn't say that.

OH please...ENLIGHTEN me...let me guess..you are going to quote some tradition??

 

[Benedicta00]

THAT is NOT Scripture. THE Word of GOD says...Joseph don't fear to take her as YOUR WIFE..NOT brother sister..THAT is so extremely twisted. I will NOT partake of any more of this twisting of scripture and nonsense. WRONG..HUSBAND wife....NOT brother sister.

14. And Joseph was greatly afraid, and retired from her, and considered what he should do in regard to her.41 And Joseph said: If I conceal her sin, I find myself fighting against the law of the Lord; and if I expose her to the sons of Israel, I am afraid lest that which is in her be from an angel,42 and I shall be found giving up innocent blood to the doom of death. What then shall I do with her? I will put her away from me secretly. And night came upon him; and, behold, an angel of the Lord appears to him in a dream, saying: Be not afraid for this maiden, for that which is in her is of the Holy Spirit; and she will bring forth a Son, and thou shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.43 And Joseph arose from sleep, and glorified the God of Israel, who had given him this grace; and he kept her.

15. And Annas the scribe came to him, and said: Why hast thou not appeared in our assembly? And Joseph said to him: Because I was weary from my journey, and rested the first day. And he turned, and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest?44 and said to him: Joseph, whom thou didst vouch for, has committed a grievous crime. And the priest said: How so? And he said: He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord, and has married her by stealth, and has not revealed it to the sons of Israel. And the priest answering, said: Has Joseph done this? Then said Annas the scribe: Send officers, and thou wilt find the virgin with child. And the officers went away, and found it as he had said; and they brought her along with Joseph to the tribunal. And the priest said: Mary, why hast thou done this? and why hast thou brought thy soul low, and forgotten the Lord thy God? Thou that wast reared in the holy of holies, and that didst receive food from the hand of an angel, and didst hear the hymns, and didst dance before Him, why hast thou done this? And she wept bitterly, saying: As the Lord my God liveth, I am pure before Him, and know not a man. And the priest said to Joseph: Why hast thou done this? And Joseph said: As the Lord liveth, I am pure concerning her. Then said the priest: Bear not false witness, but speak the truth. Thou hast married her by stealth, and hast not revealed it to the sons of Israel, and hast not bowed thy head under the strong hand, that thy seed might be blessed. And Joseph was silent.

16. And the priest said: Give up the virgin whom thou didst receive out of the temple of the Lord. And Joseph burst into tears. And the priest said: I will give you to drink of the water of the ordeal of the Lord,45 and He shall make manifest your sins in your eyes. And the priest took the water, and gave Joseph to drink and sent him away to the hill-country; and he returned unhurt. And he gave to Mary also to drink, and sent her away to the hill-country; and she returned unhurt. And all the people wondered that sin did not appear in them. And the priest said: If the Lord God has not made manifest your sins, neither do I judge you. And he sent them away. And Joseph took Mary, and went away to his own house, rejoicing and glorifying the God of Israel.

17. And there was an order from the Emperor Augustus, that all in Bethlehem of Judaea should be enrolled.46 And Joseph said: I shall enrol my sons, but what shall I do with this maiden? How shall I enrol her? As my wife? I am ashamed. As my daughter then? But all the sons of Israel know that she is not my daughter. The day of the Lord shall itself bring it to pass47 as the Lord will. And he saddled the ass, and set her upon it; and his son led it, and Joseph followed.48 And when they had come within three miles, Joseph turned and saw her sorrowful; and he said to himself: Likely that which is in her distresses her. And again Joseph turned and saw her laughing. And he said to her: Mary, how is it that I see in thy face at one time laughter, at another sorrow? And Mary said to Joseph: Because I see two peoples with my eyes; the one weeping and lamenting, and the other rejoicing and exulting. And they came into the middle of the road, and Mary said to him: Take me down from off the ass, for that which is in me presses to come forth. And he took her down from off the ass, and said to her: Whither shall I lead thee, and cover thy disgrace? for the place is desert.

18. And he found a cave49 there, and led her into it; and leaving his two sons beside her, he went out to seek a widwife in the district of Bethlehem.

And I Joseph was walking, and was not walking; and I looked up into the sky, and saw the sky astonished; and I looked up to the pole of the heavens, and saw it standing, and the birds of the air keeping still. And I looked down upon the earth, and saw a trough lying, and work-people reclining: and their hands were in the trough. And those that were eating did not eat, and those that were rising did not carry it up, and those that were conveying anything to their mouths did not convey it; but the faces of all were looking upwards. And I saw the sheep walking, and the sheep stood still; and the shepherd raised his hand to strike them, and his hand remained up. And I looked upon the current of the river, and I saw the mouths of the kids resting on the water and not drinking, and all things in a moment were driven from their course.

19. And I saw a woman coming down from the hill-country, and she said to me: O man, whither art thou going? And I said: I am seeking an Hebrew midwife. And she answered and said unto me: Art thou of Israel? And I said to her: Yes. And she said: And who is it that is bringing forth in the cave? And I said: A woman betrothed to me. And she said to me: Is she not thy wife? And I said to her: It is Mary that was reared in the temple of the Lord, and I obtained her by lot as my wife. And yet she is not my wife, but has conceived of the Holy Spirit.

I see no contradictions between this and Matthew's very short version of the nativity. In fact it says the same thing, it just goes on and picks up where that left off.

But what I don't think is being understood here is that Mary was never to be Joesph wife conjugally. She was a consecrated virgin that he was to look after.

 

[Benedicta00]

OH please...ENLIGHTEN me...let me guess..you are going to quote some tradition??

can you loose the attitude please? I understand you are passionate in your skepticism but please calm down.

Timothy does not say that scripture is enough, if it does, then show us.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I am sorry perhaps I could have been more clear. I realized that you are pointing out that many protestant churches do not accept the Apocrypha. That was not my point. That is not what I was referring to.

What I was trying to ask is where do you draw the line as to what is authoritative or not? What you quoted is not accepted as Scripture even by your Church. Why is it any different that anything else that may have been written at the time? You said yourself that you are free to "consider" it. But when a doctrine is built on something does that not give that writing the same authority as Scripture? If it does then why was this particular writing not also Scripture?

It is not Holy Scripture... but it is authorative.

We know that St. James wrote it.

You need to ask... What was the purpose of gathering these books and making them canon? What did that mean to the men who were gathering them? Why did they want such a list? Was this "ALL" that they accepted as being true? To the exclusion of all the other document that were submitted?

In truth the books that were set aside as canon were done so, because they desired all "Liturgical Services" within the Chruches to be the same throughout the calendar year. From one church to the next scriptures would be read every week in the same exact order with the same exact explainations to go along with them.

Many books were rejected for being false. But please leave that up to the same authority that said which ones were and which were not. How is it that we, standing here 2000 years later have the audacity to suppose that we know better than The Churches (plural) that incorperated these books into canon in the first place.

As an example... "The protoevangelical of James" was always said to be true, meanwhile "The gnostic gospel of Barnabas" was always held to be false. There are other examples... such as The Didache, said to be true, and by the hands of the Apostles themselves... but they were not used in the Liturgical services of Church through the calendar year. Therefore they did not need to be included as canon.

The canon was not created for people to read... people couldn't read. The canon was created as a set of books to be used in common among all the Churches for Liturgical Services... thats all.

We tend to think that being part of the canon meant that these were the books that were true and anything outside this scope of books was false information. Not so.

Forgive me...

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

can you loose the attitude please? I understand you are passionate in your skepticism but please calm down.

Timothy does not say that scripture is enough, if it does, then show us.

and your quote above was from what??? NOT the Bible.

Yes, I am passionate about Truth. MY attitude?? Hmm...yeah. ANYWAY...

15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[Benedicta00]

Yeah. ok............You believe that the "Catholic" denomination put the Word of God together. I don't. Yes, people put it together, but not the Catholic denomination. OH forget it..not going around on this again. You hold to what you believe and I will with what I believe. When you believe 'tradition' over the word of God that says they were HUSBAND AND WIFE...and you have gall to say they lived as brother/sister?? I am sorry, that is wrong and so twisted.

No the "catholic denomination" didn't canonized the NT but the Catholic Church did.

This is a matter of public historical record, those people you claim who did, where Catholic bishops.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

My peace of mind is fine..and thank you for the prayers..your sarcasm is duly noted...and yes, you are forgiven....

Sorry, but I was not being sarcastic. I believe you are suffering as Saul was suffering in ACTS 9, hence the reference to kicking against the pricks.

Peace and Love to you.

Forgive me...

 

[Benedicta00]

and your quote above was from what??? NOT the Bible.

Yes, I am passionate about Truth. MY attitude?? Hmm...yeah. ANYWAY...

15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I don't see where it says "scripture is enough."

 

[a_ntv]

From the Ascension of Isaiah chapter 11:

3. And he came into his lot. And when she was espoused, she was found with child, and Joseph the carpenter was desirous to put her away.
4. But the angel of the Spirit appeared in this world, and after that Joseph did not put her away, but kept Mary and did not reveal this matter to any one.
5. And he did not approach May, but kept her as a holy virgin, though with child.
6. And he did not live with her for two months.
7. And after two months of days while Joseph was in his house, and Mary his wife, but both alone.
8. It came to pass that when they were alone that Mary straight-way looked with her eyes and saw a small babe, and she was astonished.
9. And after she had been astonished, her womb was found as formerly before she had conceived.
10. And when her husband Joseph said unto her: "What has astonished thee?" his eyes were opened and he saw the infant and praised God, because into his portion God had come.
11. And a voice came to them: "Tell this vision to no one."
12. And the story regarding the infant was noised broad in Bethlehem.
13. Some said: "The Virgin Mary hath borne a child, before she was married two months."
14. And many said: "She has not borne a child, nor has a midwife gone up (to her), nor have we heard the cries of (labour) pains." And they were all blinded respecting Him and they all knew regarding Him, though they knew not whence He was. (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ascension.html)

This apochriphal text is probably the only source about the birth of Jesus that is indipendent from the Gospels - very older than the ProtoGospel of James.
The chapters 6-11 date on about the 70ad for some scolars, according others (more probable) they date about the 120ad, surely before the 135ad.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

and your quote above was from what??? NOT the Bible.

Yes, I am passionate about Truth. MY attitude?? Hmm...yeah. ANYWAY...

15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Jhn 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Forgive me...

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Sorry, but I was not being sarcastic. I believe you are suffering as Saul was suffering in ACTS 9, hence the reference to kicking against the pricks.

Peace and Love to you.

Forgive me...

...

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

IF the apocrypha was 'inspired' and it was catholic bishops that put the Word of God together...WHY didn't they include them?? I mean come on...a bunch of bishops...and they couldn't get them in the Word?? MUST be a reason for it.

 

[Benedicta00]

I wonder why some ppl here reject this book out of hand just because the Church did not included it in the canon?

The Church that didn't include it is the same Church who says it is for our consideration?

So I'm confused... on what are we basing this rejection on?

The Church didn't verify the inspiration of this book but that does not mean that it is a book that is to be condemned. It is there for our consideration.

The Church never condemned it as she did the Gnostic books. And we agree with the Church's rule on those, but not this book? That it is for our consideration?

Again, I'm confused?

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

I don't see where it says "scripture is enough."

NOTE: it says the Word is for teaching rebuke etc...NOT tradition OR mans doctrine. THE WORD. SO no, not "the word is enough"..but it implies it.