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Who can we blame for CRT? Immanuel Kant

muichimotsu

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Derrick Bell certainly created the racial elements of it....but he was a rationalist.

Today's CRT scholar thinks truth is subjective and lived experiences can identify it....if your lived experiences represent the bottom of a hierarchical power structure.

If you're at the top of a power structure...well your lived experiences are just an attempt at preserving your own power.
I didn't say he created critical theory, that's the misleading idea, thinking people will just lump them together when one is an umbrella term, the other is a specific iteration.

It's not making an absolute claim of reality, it's a lens for interpretation that can lead to particular models and conclusions (provisional as they would generally be, versus whatever absolutist drivel you want to spout out as if facts can't be spun for a narrative and science is never subjective at all), you apparently think that because it has postmodernist elements that critical theory can't be used by modernists, except you outright admitted CRT's founder in essence would've been a modernist. Critical theory is not antithetical to rationalism, you'd have to actually substantiate that claim
 
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FireDragon76

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I think that's more or less accurate, actually, though the skepticism started before Kant. Kant was trying to harmonize the extremes of Descartes with the extreme skepticism of Hume.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I didn't say he created critical theory

Ahem...

Critical Theory is more specific in nature and applies to Critical Race Theory, yes, which began with Derrick Bell, while Critical Theory goes back to the 1920s or so from German thinkers of the Frankfurt school.

But if you want to blame someone for Critical Race Theory specifically, that really only came about in the 1970s via Derrick Bell, and the older framework is not necessarily to blame for any outcomes that may result in differing theoretical models as to investigating certain aspects, like race, or just having different approaches, like critical social theory. And the applications are pretty broad by intention, because it's meant to look in a somewhat postmodern fashion, even if modernist philosophy also acknowledges the value

Trying to find a scapegoat as specific as Immanuel Kant or Karl Marx is unhelpful unless you're paid to just be a mouthpiece for ideological bents, in which case, that person likely doesn't care about much nuance, but just conveying an idea that sounds smart to the masses so they can continue to treat CRT like it's anything comparable to simple discussions that I wish my generation had in regards to racial injustice and how to approach such issues.

I didn't say he created critical theory either. You should read my words more carefully.



It's not making an absolute claim of reality,

Then why use it?

If it doesn't identify any truth claims then all these complaints about disparities and equity sound like communist gobbledygook.

it's a lens for interpretation that can lead to particular models and conclusions

Oh conclusions? I guess it does make truth claims after all then.

What is it's epistemology? How does it approach these truth claims?

(provisional as they would generally be, versus whatever absolutist drivel you want to spout out as if facts can't be spun for a narrative and science is never subjective at all), you apparently think that because it has postmodernist elements that critical theory can't be used by modernists, except you outright admitted CRT's founder in essence would've been a modernist.

No I claimed his ideas form the racist beliefs in CRT. I gave him credit for being a rationalist.

Much like you just attacked science and logic and facts as bad tools for understanding truth, the modern version of CRT can't use logic or science or mathematics or really anything that has a reliable track record of making truth claims about reality that hold up over time.
 
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LeafByNiggle

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I think critical race theory is about prejudices and favoritism of Whites past and present. It errs in as much as it does not also find evidence of the prejudices and favoritism of Blacks, Latinos and others both past and present. I lived in a Black majority city where the mayor was Black. A city government office building I visited was full of Blacks. The parking meter enforcement were Black women. Many police officers were White men. I guessed too many Black men have felony records. It was like they talked about the shame of White injustices, while they also showed favoritism. It is as if some do not want equality, they want reparations, affirmative action and supremacy.

Having blacks everywhere around city hall in a black majority city is not sign of black injustice against whites. Did the blacks in that city prevent whites from buying property in the best neighborhoods? Did the black police stop and question white joggers just because they were jogging through a black neighborhood? Were the whites in that city concentrated in the most run-down neighborhoods? Were the jails full of mostly white people? If you can find positive answers to these questions you might have a point.
 
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dqhall

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Having blacks everywhere around city hall in a black majority city is not sign of black injustice against whites. Did the blacks in that city prevent whites from buying property in the best neighborhoods? Did the black police stop and question white joggers just because they were jogging through a black neighborhood? Were the whites in that city concentrated in the most run-down neighborhoods? Were the jails full of mostly white people? If you can find positive answers to these questions you might have a point.
White people in the city suffered slashed tires, robberies, murder, racial insults, hate crimes. Blacks are more likely to murder than any other race. This is not justice. The neighborhood I lived in was 30 percent White, not the nicest neighborhood. The chief of police had his cruiser stolen from his property. One block might be middle class, another block housing projects with semiauto gun battles on a Saturday night. It was not police doing the killing. The head of security for my complex before I moved there was murdered. I do not blame it on slavery. My ancestors lived in Indiana and had no slaves.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Having blacks everywhere around city hall in a black majority city is not sign of black injustice against whites. Did the blacks in that city prevent whites from buying property in the best neighborhoods? Did the black police stop and question white joggers just because they were jogging through a black neighborhood? Were the whites in that city concentrated in the most run-down neighborhoods? Were the jails full of mostly white people? If you can find positive answers to these questions you might have a point.

Let's imagine that I'm describing a pretty broad concept to you that involves the following ideas....

1. The past affects the present....deeds, misdeeds, justice and injustice have all played a part in our daily lives and continue to do so today.

2. Some people generally speaking have benefitted from certain things in the past while others have struggled because of those very same things. These all relate to where we are today and how we got there..

3. There's a set of biases both visible and hidden, rules that appear indifferent, and consequences that seem unfair and these things are both a cause of points #1 and #2....and perpetuate them today.

4. Because all of points 1 through 3 are definitely true, we should demand justice if we haven't benefited from this unfairness...and if we have benefitted, even if we simply didn't struggle, we should pursue justice for those who are victims of points 1-3. That is a moral obligation, whether or not we can recognize it or even if we don't acknowledge it. That is the best way for everyone to move forward to a level playing field.

Got it? You probably heard all those ideas a lot of times by now....

What is the general concept I'm describing with these ideas?

A. Systemic racism.
B. White privilege
C. Critical Race Theory
D. A Plan to Push Marxism Forward.

Don't just guess, give it some thought and tell me what you honestly think.
 
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LeafByNiggle

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White people in the city suffered slashed tires, robberies, murder, racial insults, hate crimes.
Did an entire thriving white community get plundered and their property taken from them, as happened to "black wall street" in Tulsa in 1921?

Blacks are more likely to murder than any other race.
Blacks in the same situation as whites (like the ones that live in nice neighborhoods with good schools and grocery stores and recreational opportunities) are not any more likely to murder than any other race.

The neighborhood I lived in was 30 percent White....
Anecdotal evidence does not establish a pattern of black injustice against whites. It is more convincing if you don't make it personal.


Let's imagine that I'm describing a pretty broad concept to you that involves the following ideas....

1. The past affects the present....deeds, misdeeds, justice and injustice have all played a part in our daily lives and continue to do so today.

2. Some people generally speaking have benefitted from certain things in the past while others have struggled because of those very same things. These all relate to where we are today and how we got there..

3. There's a set of biases both visible and hidden, rules that appear indifferent, and consequences that seem unfair and these things are both a cause of points #1 and #2....and perpetuate them today.

4. Because all of points 1 through 3 are definitely true, we should demand justice if we haven't benefited from this unfairness...and if we have benefitted, even if we simply didn't struggle, we should pursue justice for those who are victims of points 1-3. That is a moral obligation, whether or not we can recognize it or even if we don't acknowledge it. That is the best way for everyone to move forward to a level playing field.

Got it? You probably heard all those ideas a lot of times by now....

What is the general concept I'm describing with these ideas?

A. Systemic racism.
B. White privilege
C. Critical Race Theory
D. A Plan to Push Marxism Forward.

Don't just guess, give it some thought and tell me what you honestly think.

As you said, these are very broad concepts you are describing. Perhaps too broad. Items 1-3 do not mention race, so it can't be A, B, or C. Item 4 is the only item that recommends a remedy. Since A, B, and C do not recommend remedies, they only describe situations, for that reason they cannot apply. Since D is the only choice that involves a proposed response, it might be the closest one to what you describe, but the remedy you describe ("should pursue justice" and "move to a level playing field") are too general to be identified as Marxism, it can't be that either. So I would have to say none of the above.
 
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dqhall

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Did an entire thriving white community get plundered and their property taken from them, as happened to "black wall street" in Tulsa in 1921?


Blacks in the same situation as whites (like the ones that live in nice neighborhoods with good schools and grocery stores and recreational opportunities) are not any more likely to murder than any other race.


Anecdotal evidence does not establish a pattern of black injustice against whites. It is more convincing if you don't make it personal.




As you said, these are very broad concepts you are describing. Perhaps too broad. Items 1-3 do not mention race, so it can't be A, B, or C. Item 4 is the only item that recommends a remedy. Since A, B, and C do not recommend remedies, they only describe situations, for that reason they cannot apply. Since D is the only choice that involves a proposed response, it might be the closest one to what you describe, but the remedy you describe ("should pursue justice" and "move to a level playing field") are too general to be identified as Marxism, it can't be that either. So I would have to say none of the above.
Check it out. Black people are killing more White people than White people are killing Blacks. See lines 1 and 2 in the FBI homicide table.
Expanded Homicide Data Table 6

Some people died in Tulsa. How many died at Fredericksburg or Gettysburg during the Civil War? Did they come from nice neighborhoods? Man’s inhumanity to man continued. Millions of Jews perished in Hitler’s camps. Millions of Christians died in Stalin’s Gulag Archipelago. The Turkish Jihad killed over a million Armenian Christians over a hundred years ago in the Armenian genocide.

How is it that a sinner can not become righteous by moving to a different part of the city? The change must come from within. Jesus is calling. Who will obey?
 
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public hermit

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I Kant say. I'm not that familiar with Kants work.

Certainly within the time period, Kant couldn't be the only one criticizing rationality. There was widespread distrust of science. It has a tendency to provide more useful answers than traditional narratives.



Oh this explains it...

Allen Carl Guelzo (born 1953) is an American historian who serves as Senior Research Scholar in the Council of the Humanities

A historian and researcher in the humanities.

This guy knows exactly where it comes from. He knows that if you just follow citations you go back to Marx and Hegel, Gramsci, I forgot the name of the old Brazilian marxist who thought schools were for political revolution....

He can't possibly be that deep in the humanities without knowing this mainly comes from marxists trying to understand why communism wasn't happening in the west....and how to change that.

I'm not sure CRT can be traced back to Marxism. Can it? Maybe it Kant. I would certainly say proponents of Critical Race Theory are often fond of Marxism, too. But that doesn't mean one came out of the other. I really don't know.

What I do think is that his claim that Kant was anti-reason or anti-Enlightenment seems patently false, on the face of it. Perhaps he has an argument to support his claim, which I would be interested to hear, but it must be very unique, which is one strike against it. But, I've been wrong before, so...
 
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Ana the Ist

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Blacks in the same situation as whites (like the ones that live in nice neighborhoods with good schools and grocery stores and recreational opportunities) are not any more likely to murder than any other race.

Ageed.

Anecdotal evidence does not establish a pattern of black injustice against whites. It is more convincing if you don't make it personal.

Agreed.



As you said, these are very broad concepts you are describing. Perhaps too broad. Items 1-3 do not mention race, so it can't be A, B, or C.

Interesting...could we put race indicators on any of them and change your answer?

Item 4 is the only item that recommends a remedy. Since A, B, and C do not recommend remedies, they only describe situations, for that reason they cannot apply.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. In regards to critical theories....they differ from traditional theories in several ways, but one really important way....

Traditional theories seek to understand phenomenon.

Critical theories exist to criticize power hierarchies. That's it. They don't have to explain them, they don't have to even understand them.

Since D is the only choice that involves a proposed response, it might be the closest one to what you describe, but the remedy you describe ("should pursue justice" and "move to a level playing field") are too general to be identified as Marxism, it can't be that either. So I would have to say none of the above.

Again, I think that's interesting. Do you think that you know Marxism well enough to detect it in scholarly work/debate/research....etc?
 
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LeafByNiggle

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Check it out. Black people are killing more White people than White people are killing Blacks.
As I said, when you look only at blacks in the same circumstances as whites (nice neighbor hoods, good jobs, etc.), they do no murder at any higher rate than anyone else.

Some people died in Tulsa.
And those that did not had their property plundered and they never got it back.

How many died at Fredericksburg or Gettysburg during the Civil War?
Irrelevant. That was a war.

How is it that a sinner can not become righteous by moving to a different part of the city?
A person does not become righteous just because he is not shooting people.
 
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LeafByNiggle

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Interesting...could we put race indicators on any of them and change your answer?
If you changed your points 1, 2, and 3 to identify the "some people" as racial groups, then it could described A, B, or C. Although it is still too broad to nail it down to just one of them.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.
To elaborate,

A. Systemic racism.
B. White privilege
C. Critical Race Theory

All describe something about the condition of society. In their purest form they do not include admonitions of what ought to be done about those conditions, like "should pursue justice" and "move to a level playing field". So if your points 1, 2, 3, and especially 4 are meant to describe one of A, B, or C, they would fail to do so because point 4 calls for a remedy and A, B, and C do not. Of course if a person accepts the truth of A, B, or C that person would most likely feel the need to call for a remedy. Said another way, the only people that do not think any remedy of that sort is needed are people would reject the truth A, B, and C.

Traditional theories seek to understand phenomenon.

Critical theories exist to criticize power hierarchies. That's it. They don't have to explain them, they don't have to even understand them.
I don't think that is quite right. I can't imagine a scholarly investigation into the development of racially-motivated power structures that did not at least attempt both understand and explain those power structures. CRT is after all a scholarly investigation.

Do you think that you know Marxism well enough to detect it in scholarly work/debate/research....etc?
I have seen enough to know that Marxism is all too frequently invoked as a boogy man to incite irrational fear of all sorts of things, much like "communism" as invoked to great effect during the McCarthy era. And yes, I do know what Marxism means well enough to know that your points 1, 2, and 3 are not it. And point 4 is vague enough that is could be used to justify Marxism, or it could be used to justify responses that have nothing to do with Marxism.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I'm not sure CRT can be traced back to Marxism. Can it? Maybe it Kant. I would certainly say proponents of Critical Race Theory are often fond of Marxism, too. But that doesn't mean one came out of the other. I really don't know.

Is it straight up Marxist? No. Does it have Marxist elements at its core....absolutely. You can trace certain ideas and methods right back to Marx, Postmodernism, and basically a volkish idea of race essentialism.

I can't say if it's strongest advocates and scholars want to live in a communist state. I can say it makes sense as a racist worldview that uses some bad ideas and philosophies (ot uses them badly) to lend itself an appearance of legitimate scholarship.

In general, I don't care if some racists in academia sell some books The problem is that they put themselves firmly into the education system for children. At that point, I see a genuine problem that's somewhere between political indoctrination and child abuse.


What I do think is that his claim that Kant was anti-reason or anti-Enlightenment seems patently false, on the face of it. Perhaps he has an argument to support his claim, which I would be interested to hear, but it must be very unique, which is one strike against it. But, I've been wrong before, so...

I think it's misdirection. They don't want people really looking into the views of its leading voices and scholars today.

Google "Kendi defines racism" and watch the minute long YouTube video.
 
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dqhall

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As I said, when you look only at blacks in the same circumstances as whites (nice neighbor hoods, good jobs, etc.), they do no murder at any higher rate than anyone else.
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Being born white does not guarantee a good job, nice neighborhood, etc. I wonder how some Asians are not so depressed, get good grades in school, have a good work ethic, etc. I watched a video about a parking lot attendant who got paid $12/hr and amassed a $500,000 retirement account. He spent more time studying investments than whining about his poverty.

I read Hispanics live longer than blacks or whites. Who thought health is important? Obese people are eating their way to an early death.

Those who looted during the BLM riots did not give back the loot they stole.
Some were burning businesses in St. Louis until they learned the businesses were owned by blacks, then they stopped torching them. That is racism too.

You would not want to hire someone convicted of shooting someone else, would you? Murder is not righteousness.
 
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muichimotsu

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The theory evolves, at best he originated the first iteration of the term, which is not the same as it never changing. That's like saying only Freud did anything of significance to Freudian psychology. Word choice can be tricky, let's not be pedantic





Then why use it?

If it doesn't identify any truth claims then all these complaints about disparities and equity sound like communist gobbledygook.
Because absolutism leads to fascism, genius. And nice well poisoning to just throw out the buzzword of communism to foment more fear instead of substantiating your objections in a way that isn't "Oh, this doesn't answer everything to my satisfaction, thus it's worthless," which is childish, to be frank


Oh conclusions? I guess it does make truth claims after all then.

What is it's epistemology? How does it approach these truth claims?

Pretty sure it isn't exclusively postmodern, so you're already burying the lead in more attempts to discredit without actually offering an alternative that isn't dismissive and victim blaming of those who suffer racial injustice, like they just created the situations that have been around since America's founding and didn't go away after the Civil War, they just festered in Jim Crow not targeting race explicitly. And even moreso now with nationalist nonsense that treats anyone who doesn't act white enough in their satisfaction of conforming to American exceptionalist white supremacy as a traitor (to the country and/or their race)

Ahem, you mean its, you don't use it's unless it's a contraction of "it is"


No I claimed his ideas form the racist beliefs in CRT. I gave him credit for being a rationalist.

Much like you just attacked science and logic and facts as bad tools for understanding truth, the modern version of CRT can't use logic or science or mathematics or really anything that has a reliable track record of making truth claims about reality that hold up over time.
Oh, the theory that looks at race as a factor is somehow actually also prejudiced against white people, as if they aren't enabling or outright participating in a discriminatory social structure that centers and favors white people historically.

Almost like critical theory is based in the social sciences, which you'd know if you actually looked at it even an iota instead of having pundits tell you what to think and then convince yourself you're some brilliant intellectual yourself via delusions of grandeur. But sure, dismiss anything that doesn't have the positivist spin you want to put on things, you sure are in the "majority" there
 
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LeafByNiggle

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Being born white does not guarantee a good job, nice neighborhood, etc.
Statistically, it makes it much more likely.

I watched a video about a parking lot attendant who...
This has nothing to do with statistics. You did cite statistics about black murders, didn't you?

Those who looted during the BLM riots did not give back the loot they stole.
Those who marched peacefully in the BLM marches did not steal anything. You are referring to a subset of marchers who engaged in violence.

You would not want to hire someone convicted of shooting someone else, would you? Murder is not righteousness.
Nor is plundering the wealth and property of an entire prosperous community in Tulsa. Yet the people who did that suffered no consequences and got to keep their plunder.
 
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Ana the Ist

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If you changed your points 1, 2, and 3 to identify the "some people" as racial groups, then it could described A, B, or C. Although it is still too broad to nail it down to just one of them.

Right, it is too broad to nail down just one of those ideas. If I wanted to though, I think it would be easy to take some specific indicators of race....and shape either 1 or 2 into the concepts of "white privilege" or more generally speaking just privilege....or the concept of "systemic racism".

It really just depends on whose viewpoint I'm describing. If I'm talking about the people who have faced struggles and obstacles or "oppression" I can racialize the idea that more or less describes "systemic racism".

If I'm talking about the people who have benefited from 1 and 2....I could racialize it into a description that pretty well describes the concept of "white privilege".

The interesting thing to me is that without that racialization...to anyone who hasn't been exposed to these ideas, it just kind of broadly looks like "history" or "society"....or perhaps more generally an aspect of society that describes a power dynamic in history.

Obviously I was making the point that this worldview is pretty malleable. If I were to add indicators of class based on wealth, and used terms like bourgeois or proletariat to describe the oppressed and oppressors...I'd sound basically like an early 1900s Russian Communist.

In fact, I'd say that if you wanted to take the general ideas of 1 and 2 apply them to any society anywhere at any time....you could. You might need to describe those who have benefited from society and those who haven't along different lines like religion or access to resources...but you could do it.

There's really no social system that has ever been created that some people have not been able to gain advantage from.

To elaborate,

A. Systemic racism.
B. White privilege
C. Critical Race Theory

All describe something about the condition of society. In their purest form they do not include admonitions of what ought to be done about those conditions, like "should pursue justice" and "move to a level playing field".

I not only have to disagree here, but I'm going to make a truth claim. CRT does contain an admonition. It does contain a call to action. We can argue about whether or not it's an accusation of guilt in a sense of justice, or whether it is a more moral accusation of behavior regardless of whether or not its conscious behavior...but it does describe the relationship between 1 and 2 this way and it does describe the necessity of action in resolving the admonition. The call for action is a defining aspect of CRT and if you want....I can pull any number of college level definitions of CRT and point it out. For example...

What is Critical Race Theory?

Another component to CRT is the commitment to Social justice and active role scholars take in working toward “eliminating racial oppression as a broad goal of ending all forms of oppression”. [4] This is the eventual goal of CRT and the work that most CRT scholars pursue as academics and activists.

The idea that its "just an analytical tool" or a "lens that provides a way to analyze race relationships"....is clearly false. It's also a call to action.

One could argue that it's both....but the idea that it's just one is false. I'd go as far as saying that the whole idea of it being an analytical tool is entirely false....it doesn't do analysis whatsoever. It's a worldview with a narrative that tells people to see race relationship a certain way. I can show you how it does this...and I can show you how it describes people who disagree.

The point though, is that it definitely contains an element of necessary action. That could be either spreading the worldview or marching in protest...but it doesn't allow for just "believing the worldview". Generally speaking, if you were to tell people you agree with this worldview but don't want to engage in the corrective actions, you'll be accused of being "complicit" in oppression or more specifically "systemic racism". Silence is violence and etc.

So if your points 1, 2, 3, and especially 4 are meant to describe one of A, B, or C, they would fail to do so because point 4 calls for a remedy and A, B, and C do not.

C definitely does contain all call to action. You described a necessary admonition...and it is a part of the theory. Nobody who believes that the worldview would describe 1 or 2 as just history or the nature of humanity...it's described as a power dynamic that places people in a role of either oppressed or oppressors. There is no nuetral position...and it doesn't really matter whether or not you think that the accusation is a moral one or one about justice and injustice.

Of course if a person accepts the truth of A, B, or C that person would most likely feel the need to call for a remedy. Said another way, the only people that do not think any remedy of that sort is needed are people would reject the truth A, B, and C.

I'm glad you can recognize that it is a truth claim....it doesn't just say it's possible to view things the way it does...it says its necessary to view things that way to understand reality.

That's how you can see it isn't an analytical tool or lens for viewing race relationships. It's a truth claim about reality.

How do you understand the truth? I'm an atheist so I require evidence. I can't just ignore evidence that disproves a worldview. I was never able to actually accept the truth claims because they require me to accept the word of some people as truth...and ignore the word of others because they either are part of the "oppressor" group trying to preserve their privilege or whatever.

I understand that such broad worldviews don't always have evidence. I think debate can be a good method for comparing subjective claims. Unfortunately, no CRT believer or adherent will debate. I have to think it's because the whole thing falls apart pretty quickly if they do.

I don't think that is quite right. I can't imagine a scholarly investigation into the development of racially-motivated power structures that did not at least attempt both understand and explain those power structures. CRT is after all a scholarly investigation.

If I quoted one of the "scholars" who developed the concept of critical theory describing it as I just did...

Would you admit you were wrong?

I have seen enough to know that Marxism is all too frequently invoked as a boogy man to incite irrational fear of all sorts of things, much like "communism" as invoked to great effect during the McCarthy era. And yes, I do know what Marxism means well enough to know that your points 1, 2, and 3 are not it. And point 4 is vague enough that is could be used to justify Marxism, or it could be used to justify responses that have nothing to do with Marxism.

If I asked you to describe dialectical models as Marxists see them....would you be able to do that?

I'm not asking if you understand Hegelian dialectics....I barely understand the concept and I certainly can't put it into a practical application, I think most scholars don't really understand the concept.....

I do know how Marx saw the concept and I know how it influenced Marxists since then.

Would you be able to tell me if Kendi's concept of Antiracism fits a modern Marxist dialectical model?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Statistically, it makes it much more likely.

True. The problem is the assumption that being white and being successful indicate that one causes the other.

We can say that a black man has a much higher chance of committing murder in his lifetime than a white man....but we shouldn't assume it's because he is black or give any consideration to racist theories that say it's because he's black.

Have you bought into a theory that claims that a white man is successful because he's white? Wouldn't that be racist in the same way as claiming that a black man is more likely to commit murder because he's black?


Those who marched peacefully in the BLM marches did not steal anything. You are referring to a subset of marchers who engaged in violence.

Right. You don't believe in group guilt or group responsibility. People are responsible for themselves and their actions alone.

Nor is plundering the wealth and property of an entire prosperous community in Tulsa. Yet the people who did that suffered no consequences and got to keep their plunder.

If there's someone alive today who was involved in the Tulsa race massacre or whatever people call it... I'm all for charging them with a crime.

If however, you want to blame people who had nothing to do with it or wish to make people who did not commit those deeds pay for them....

Do you believe in group responsibility or not?

You clearly don't regarding BLM riots. Those people were, in many cases, marching right alongside those doing the crimes...

It seems like they are far more culpable than some random white people who have no relation to the white people who destroyed a black community in Tulsa.

What do you believe in? Racial guilt? Group guilt?

Or the individual guilt and responsibility we've been striving to define and protect since this society was founded?

You can't really believe in both...they're mutually exclusive. You can believe in group guilt or racial guilt or historical guilt....but if you switch from one to another whenever it suits your position, people are going to point out the hypocrisy.
 
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LeafByNiggle

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True. The problem is the assumption that being white and being successful indicate that one causes the other.
That is a reasonably hypothesis, isn't it? One that I have not advanced. I have only mentioned the correlation. If that correlation suggests a causation in your mind, then that is for you to deal with an explain. I suppose you could try to come up with some alternate explanation for the correlation. But please don't try to deny the factual correlation. That is way too easy for me to support.

We can say that a black man has a much higher chance of committing murder in his lifetime than a white man....but we shouldn't assume it's because he is black or give any consideration to racist theories that say it's because he's black.
You are welcome to advance that theory. But as a theory, it would call for some support. How would you go about supporting the theory that higher murder rates are caused by blackness and not anything else, like say, society conditions?

Have you bought into a theory that claims that a white man is successful because he's white? Wouldn't that be racist in the same way as claiming that a black man is more likely to commit murder because he's black?
The question is not whether is is racist. The question is whether it is true. For example, if I said that the disease sickle cell anemia is higher among blacks because of their race, that would be true, because it is. Can you say something similar for societal success?
 
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Ana the Ist

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That is a reasonably hypothesis, isn't it? One that I have not advanced. I have only mentioned the correlation. If that correlation suggests a causation in your mind, then that is for you to deal with an explain. I suppose you could try to come up with some alternate explanation for the correlation. But please don't try to deny the factual correlation. That is way too easy for me to support.

Ok...lets agree that it's a reasonable hypothesis.

How can we disprove or prove it? We can look at genetics. Science mapped the human genome and found no significant differences that would lead to a possible genetic answers. So biology isn't going to explain it.

We could also look at the laws. Are there laws that give benefits to white people? No. There's actually laws against racial discrimination. How about policies? No...I'd actually have a far easier time pointing out policies and practices that give benefits to non-whites and other various minorities because of the implementation of Affirmative Action in both university applications hiring practices in many big businesses. I think we can probably agree that finding any sort of written policy or practice or laws that benefit whites would be much more difficult.

What other explanation are there? We looked really hard at implicit bias....but that hasn't been very successful at proving your hypothesis. At this point, science has been unable to find any connection between implicit bias and behaviors in regards to race. We cannot, for example, demonstrate that someone holds an implicit bias and use that information to predict how they will react in any sort of racial situation.

So what's left? I suppose we can talk about culture. We would have to define this though (ie. Black culture, white culture, etc) and we would have to actually examine every culture. If we are interested in the ways it influences outcomes and the disparities between whites and blacks...we can't just look at white culture, we would have to also look at black culture. It could be possible that white people do things that cause them to succeed more...but it's also possible that black people are doing things that cause them to succeed less.

That's a tricky thing. Defining what is a part of white or black culture is difficult in of itself. I'm quite certain that no one wants to examine black culture, even if they could define it, because I've seen what accusations are almost immediately made against those scholars who try.

If you can think of a possible explanation I'm missing....feel free to point it out.

You are welcome to advance that theory. But as a theory, it would call for some support. How would you go about supporting the theory that higher murder rates are caused by blackness and not anything else, like say, society conditions?

I don't know. I know that nothing about skin color relates to one's ability to commit murder, or even those personality traits that would be associated with that choice (like psychopathy).

That's why I wouldn't make the claim that black people commit disproportionately more murders because they are black.

The question is not whether is is racist. The question is whether it is true.

Well if a theory is racist then for the reasons outlined above, we can dismiss it as untrue.

That's why I can say that "white people are more likely to be successful because they are white" is a racist theory.

There's nothing genetically different about being white which would lead to such an explanation.

For example, if I said that the disease sickle cell anemia is higher among blacks because of their race, that would be true, because it is. Can you say something similar for societal success?

That's a biological fact though. I don't know what you even mean by "success" here. It's too broad of term personally and socially.

Let's be more specific. Let's ask if there's anything about being black or white that would make it more likely for the person to make 80,000$ a year, or more. I would say no.

We do know that there are multiple factors that are unrelated to race which can affect the chances of meeting that standard or not meeting that standard...

For example being a child of divorce would impact that outcome. It's not a factor any child can control, but it does seem to be a factor. Another example is graduating high school....which is a factor that someone has a choice in. I can say it's easier for a child from a stable two family home to graduate from high school than a child of divorce. It's weird to me though when people begin to describe the struggle that the child of a stable two family home didn't face (the struggle that the child of divorce did face) as a privilege. It's not as if either child was able to decide if their parents would stay married.

Yet that does seem to affect the chances of graduating. There's an element of personal choice, or agency, that affects the outcome as well. If the child chooses to skip school....chances of graduating diminish.

Other factors are almost entirely perspers choice....like having a child as a teenager. That's going to impact one's significantly in many ways and impact other outcomes in a big way.

So if I were going to look at why two groups were having a disparity between outcomes (which I would expect because we all make different choices) I would want to start with the factors which are a result of agency (like having a child as a single parent or which degree they choose to pursue) and see if those groups make those decisions in different numbers. If they do... and the disparities reflect that...we've got a pretty good explanation for the disparity.

If the disparity isn't reflective of the choices....then I'd move onto more complicated factors like circumstances they didn't choose.

Does that make sense?
 
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