who can judge

[KrazyCanadian1962]

This topic has been heavily debated by scholars with way more education and expertise than I. Same with the topic of whether or not you can lose your salvation.

Far as I'm concerned, the church must be removed before the tribulation. The comforter, Holy Spirit, cannot be here if the antichrist is to take control. If the Holy Spirit is gone then the church has to be gone too because Christ said he would never leave us. Also, Christ will return with his bride at the end of the tribulation. I can't see the church, who are the bride of Christ, doing a huge "U" turn as would be necessary if we were raptured and then return at the same time. I believe the Holy Spirit and the church are removed, this allows the anti christ to set up. We will return with our Lord at the end to defeat the unholy trinity of the antichrist, beast and satan at the end of the tribulation and usher in the millennial age.

This, of course, is just my opinion. Some day, in paradise, we can sit down and laugh at why we were wrong about our theological discussions and the opinions that drove them.

Maranatha friends.

 

[KrazyCanadian1962]

To Spunkin,

I agree, we are guilty because of our sin, but will be guilty even after we accept Christ. Accepting Christ only means we have faith that he has forgiven us and given us salvation even though we are still guilty.

And, we will not be righteous until after our judgement.

You are also right,"none of us are ever truly innocent" as, we are born in sin and none of us are without sin.

However, In any court, you are innocent until proven guilty. As you said, we are all guilty and it won't take long to prove this. We will always be guilty but our price for freedom has been paid. We will never be innocent, ever, just pardoned.

Once we sin we are guilty. This will never change. In a nonbeliever, they don't accept the pardon. Christ paid the price of death for me. I would other wise have to die to pay my price. The non believer will have to die to pay their price. I am no more innocent than the non believer, however, Christ will stand for me and tell God the price for my debt was payed at Calvary.

You are right, I will never be innocent, Its just that my debt has been paid for me, I don't have to die.

Then we will be made righteous.

 

[Bible2]

KrazyCanadian1962 said in post 43:

I believe the Holy Spirit and the church are removed, this allows the anti christ to set up.

The restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thes. 2:6-8) can't be the Holy Spirit, because in the future the restrainer of the Antichrist will be removed (2 Thes. 2:7b), whereas the Holy Spirit can never be removed because he is always omnipresent (Ps. 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer of the Antichrist can't be the church, because the church won't be removed (Jn. 17:15,20, Prov. 10:30). Believers will still be on the earth during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Rev. 13:5-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6, Mt. 24:9-13), & now there are no believers outside of the church (Eph. 4:4-5), & now no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Rom. 8:9). The restrainer of the Antichrist could be a powerful angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Rev. 20:1-3). The Spirit-filled church won't restrain the Antichrist, for he will be allowed to physically overcome the Spirit-filled church in every nation (Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6, Mt. 24:9-13), like, for example, how the Roman emperors & Satan were allowed to physically overcome people in the Spirit-filled church in the first century AD (e.g. Rev. 2:10).

We will return with our Lord at the end to defeat the unholy trinity of the antichrist, beast and satan at the end of the tribulation and usher in the millennial age.

Regarding "We will return with our Lord", 1 Thes. 3:13, like 1 Thes. 4:14-17, refers to Jesus' 2nd coming, when the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thes. 4:14-15), & their souls will descend to the earth & their bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thes. 4:16). Then they & all believers who survived the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up together as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thes. 4:17, 2 Thes. 2:1, Mt. 24:29-31). It's because of this 2nd coming rapture into the sky (& then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Rev. 19:7-8, Mt. 25:1-12) that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Rev. 19:14, 17:14, Zech. 14:5c,4).

Regarding "the unholy trinity of the antichrist, beast and satan", the unholy trinity is shown in Rev. 16:13 to consist of Satan (the dragon: Rev. 12:9), the Antichrist (the beast), and the False Prophet (Rev. 19:20, 13:11-17).

The man commonly called the Antichrist is the individual "man of sin" (2 Thes. 2:3) who will sit in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thes. 2:4, Dan. 11:36). He's the individual "man" aspect of the "beast" who will come (Rev. 13:18) and bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and himself (Rev. 13:4,8, 12:9). He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Rev. 13:5-10, Dan. 7:25, 12:7) and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Rev. 19:20, 16:13) who by amazing Luciferian miracles (cf. 2 Thes. 2:9), such as calling fire down from heaven (Rev. 13:13), will deceive the people of the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Rev. 13:15) and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Rev. 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (Rev. 19:20), while at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-3).

 

[Bible2]

KrazyCanadian1962 said in post 43:

This topic has been heavily debated by scholars with way more education and expertise than I. Same with the topic of whether or not you can lose your salvation.

Regarding "whether or not you can lose your salvation", the Bible doesn't teach OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), but that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Heb. 3:6,12,14, Col. 1:23), and there's no assurance they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Lk. 8:13, 1 Tim. 4:1, 2 Tim. 4:3-4, 2 Thes. 2:3, Heb. 3:12, Mt. 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Heb. 6:4-8, Jn. 15:6, 2 Tim. 2:12b, Mk. 8:35-38, Heb. 10:38-39, Mt. 24:9-13).

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience and good works (Rom. 2:6-8, Jas. 2:24, Mt. 7:21, Philip. 2:12b, 2 Cor. 5:9, Heb. 5:9, 2 Pet. 1:10-11, Heb. 6:10-12, Philip. 3:11-14, 1 Jn. 2:17b) of faith (1 Thes. 1:3, Gal. 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), and there's no assurance they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Mt. 25:26,30, Jn. 15:2a).

Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works of faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to repent from every sin they might commit to the end (Heb. 10:26-29, 1 Cor. 9:27, Mt. 7:22-23, Gal. 5:19-21), and there's no assurance they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Lk. 12:45-46, 2 Pet. 2:20-22, Rom. 8:13, 1 Jn. 5:16, Jas. 5:19-20).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Mk. 16:16, 1 Pet. 3:21, Rom. 6:3-11, Col. 2:12, Gal. 3:27, Acts 2:38), and there's no assurance they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of communion (Jn. 6:53, Mt. 26:26-28, 1 Cor. 10:16, 11:27-30), and there's no assurance they will choose to do that (cf. Jn. 6:60,66).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Mt. 6:14-15), and there's no assurance they will choose to do that (Mt. 18:21-35).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all they can (Rom. 12:18) to be reconciled to everyone whom they have ever wronged and who could still be holding a grudge against them (Mt. 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16), and there's no assurance they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need (Mt. 25:34-46), and there's no assurance they will choose to do that (3 Jn. 1:10b).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Tim. 5:8), and there's no assurance they will choose to do that

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mk. 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Mt. 12:28) is performed by Satan (Mk. 3:22-30). There's no assurance initially saved people will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Cor. 14:39b, 1 Thes. 5:19).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't remove words from the text of the book of Revelation and publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Rev. 22:19). There's no assurance they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Cor. 4:2).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't worship the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Rev. 14:9-12, 13:16-18). There's no assurance they won't choose to do that (1 Tim. 4:1).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Rom. 11:20-22), and there's no assurance they will choose to do that (Lk. 12:45-46).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Rev. 3:5, 2:26), and there's no assurance they will choose to do that (Rev. 21:7-8).

All this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in believers, but the healthy fear which all believers are supposed to have (e.g. Rom. 11:20-22).

 

[KrazyCanadian1962]

Like I said, this topic has been argued, at length, by people with far more expertise than I have for sure. Both sides have presented good arguments. I tend to understand the Bible to describe a Pre Trib Rapture. But.... that's my opinion.

I also tend to believe and truly hope faithfully that I am right, that you cannot lose your salvation. I base this on my personal heart. I am, for sure, saved by Christs blood and walk with full intentions of following His will. However, I am still a sinner and I sin. Whether it's coveting, gluttony, sloth.... whatever. As a human, it is impossible for me to live and not sin. So, if I can lose my salvation, I would have to continually pray the sinners prayer. I don't believe this is necessary. I believe that I was saved the day I gave my life to Christ and I will go through trials and stages where I am closer or further from Christ. The Holy Spirit lives in me and won't leave me. I must continue to ask Christ to forgive me and the people that I offend. But I will always be Christs child. Someday, in Paradise, I will be made Holy and sin no more. Until then I persevere and my motives are always to do his will even though it is impossible for me to ever live sinless as a human.

Again, my opinion only. And... some day, we can sit and chat by the tree of life and the river of living water and laugh about where our "theology" was flawed, off base and totally wrong. Until then, I will believe that I am saved by Gods grace.


Whats important is that we are brothers in Christ and doing His work to bring others to salvation. All our efforts are in good faith by our beliefs for a common good and we are not causing others to stumble.