who can judge

[Spunkn]

Jesus is righteous because He is God. He doesn't have to "judge" Himself. I don't get what you're trying to get at? As someone who is already perfectly righteous, why would they need to be judged?

 

[blah1234]

is it possible that satan would try to convince someone that they are Jesus?

 

[Spunkn]

People have mental illnesses / delusions in which they claim to be Jesus, so sure. Satan could have his hand in that.

But I doubt that He does that very often. It's not a very smart tactic to use against people. Satan is more about subtley than direct attacks. However, someone with a mental illness could easily be persuaded by Satan to think they are Jesus.

I mean if you want to get technical about it. Satan tries to convince everyone that they can be God. Whenever you choose to disobey God you are saying "I know better than God, so I can make my own decisions". So in a sense, Satan tries to get us all to "think we are God".

 

[blah1234]

so you don't think a direct attack as in blatantly telling someone they are the Son of God is something he would do? wouldn't that be a sure fire way to convince someone they are righteous by nature and then they don't know the true way to righteousness. he could really control someone like that.

 

[Spunkn]

I think most people are smart enough to realize they're not God. If you're God, I'm pretty sure you can create a universe into existance just by speaking. So there's a pretty easy way to tell if you are God or not......

that is why I would say a direct attack such as making someone think they are Jesus would usually be on someone with a mental illness to begin with. Something like Schizophrenia.

 

[blah1234]

i guess so. Jesus was on Earth as a youngster too; he didn't start his ministry until later. it doesn't mention creation anywhere. i guess i think that all the powers of the Son come from the Father.

 

[blah1234]

to add something to may last post: Jhn 5:30
Would an anti-Christ believe they are Christ? or believe against Christ?

A false prophet might claim they are the Christ and deceive many. I wonder if they would truly believe they are the Christ or if they would be lying right from the beginning?

 

[Bible2]

canadianicon25 said in post 29:

Would an anti-Christ believe they are Christ? or believe against Christ?

An antichrist could do either one.

Nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the future Antichrist will claim to be Christ, for his antichrist denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 Jn. 4:3) will disqualify him as a mortal-flesh human (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ. Instead, the non-mortal-flesh Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) could be the false Christ (i.e. the "Lucifer" Christ, and not the "Jesus" Christ: 1 Jn. 2:22) during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Rev. 13:4-18, 12:9), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24.

When Satan (Lucifer, the dragon) is cast down to the earth at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 (Rev. 12:9,12), he won't claim to be "Jesus" Christ, just as the separate Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast, the man of sin: 2 Thes. 2:3b-4,9, Rev. 13:4-18) won't claim to be "Jesus" Christ, for "anti"-Christ can simply refer to anyone who is "against" the true Christ, as in anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 Jn. 2:22), or denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 Jn. 2:22b), or denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 Jn. 1:7).

But none of this means there won't also be multiple false human Christs who will arise during the tribulation (Mt. 24:24), including one who will be a false ultra-Orthodox Jewish Christ/Messiah. For shortly after the start of the tribulation, the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with a false ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" (Dan. 9:26a, 11:22-23a), promising this false Messiah and his ultra-Orthodox Jewish followers that they can keep a 3rd Jewish temple (Rev. 11:1), which they will have built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, for at least 7 more years (Dan. 9:27a).

 

[Bible2]

canadianicon25 said in post 29:

A false prophet might claim they are the Christ and deceive many.

That's right.

But nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the future False Prophet (Rev. 13:11-16, 19:20, 16:13) will claim to be Christ, for the reasons outlined in the prior post.

The beast which comes up out of the earth (Rev. 13:11-16) represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Rev. 19:20, 16:13). He could currently be a (secretly apostate) cardinal in the RCC, preparing himself to become the next pope. If he becomes the next pope, he could begin his tenure by making a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What's more important than this?"

He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "A Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, the next pope could come to hold high positions of power in two religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the two horns of the False Prophet lamb (Rev. 13:11). This would be similar to how the seven horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Rev. 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding seven positions of power at the same time (cf. Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Rev. 19:12). The False Prophet could even say he is Jesus. (But, again, he won't say he's Christ, for the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Christ and will deny Christ is in the flesh: 1 Jn. 2:22, 2 Jn. 1:7.)

 

[blah1234]

it's always interesting to read about interpretations of the end times. a great mystery indeed. i too believe that the Islam belief systems has a great deal to do with Lucifer and what happens during the end times.

the seven horns of the true-Jesus

I wonder if this has anything to do with the seven continents of the world?

 

[seeking Christ]

Is that from Islam?

In Christianity, I truly believe most of our Scriptures are not trying to tell us about end time events at all, but that Christ could return at any time. All is ready. There is one return, on the day of judgment itself.

IMHO

 

[blah1234]

Rev. 5:6

I was just stating that Lucifer's army could turn out to be all the followers of Islam. They could all be with evil spirits; just waiting.

 

[Bible2]

canadianicon25 said in post 32:

i too believe that the Islam belief systems has a great deal to do with Lucifer and what happens during the end times.

Islam is an anti-gospel religion, for even though it affirms Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, 5:17,75), it denies Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (Koran 9:30, 4:171, 5:72), & denies he died on the Cross for our sins (Koran 4:157) & rose from the dead on the 3rd day. In order to be saved, people have to believe the gospel that Jesus is both the Christ & the human/divine Son of God (Jn. 3:16,36, 1 Jn. 2:23), & that he died on the Cross for our sins & rose from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Cor. 15:1-4, Lk. 24:46-47, Mt. 20:19, 26:28).

The Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Rev. 13:5-18), won't support Islam in its past and current form, insofar as Islam affirms Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, 4:171), whereas the Antichrist will deny Jesus is the Christ (1 Jn. 2:22). And Islam affirms Christ is in the flesh, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny Christ is in the flesh (2 Jn. 1:7). And Islam affirms the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Rev. 13:6, Dan. 11:36). And Islam (mistakenly) affirms no man can be God, whereas the Antichrist will say he's God (2 Thes. 2:4, Dan. 11:36). And Islam forbids the worship of any images (Koran 21:52, 6:74), whereas the Antichrist will have an image made of himself to be worshipped (Rev. 13:15). And Islam rejects Satan/Lucifer as being evil, whereas the Antichrist will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon) (Rev. 13:4, 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Islam in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Rev. 13:4-7), the Antichrist and the man who will be his False Prophet (Rev. 19:20) (who could be a future, apostate pope), could at first pretend to wholly support Islam in its current form (as well as Christianity), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Rev. 13:13-18, 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 Jn. 4:3, Rev. 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Rev. 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Rev. 13:4-8, 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kin. 18:37-39).

Even though Islam (in its current form) won't be the religion of the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, Islam could be, since the latter half of the 7th century, Rev. 17:10's seventh empire (the Antichrist's empire will be a different, still-future, 8th empire: Rev.17:11). Also, because Islam claims the (anti-gospel) Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it's one fulfillment of Gal. 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Cor. 11:14).

 

[Bible2]

seeking Christ said in post 33:

In Christianity, I truly believe most of our Scriptures are not trying to tell us about end time events at all, but that Christ could return at any time.

Jesus Christ can't return at any time, for he won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the never-fulfilled tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Rev. 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Rev. 19:7-20:6, 1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-53, 1 Thes. 4:15-16). Mt. 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thes. 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thes. 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thes. 2:1-4, Dan. 11:31,36, Rev. 11:1-2, 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of the 3rd Jewish temple (Mt. 24:15-31, Dan. 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thes. 2:1,8, Rev. 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Rev. 13:5-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6, Mt. 24:9-31). At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thes. 4:15, 2 Thes. 2:1, Mt. 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thes. 4:16-17, 2 Thes. 2:1, Mt. 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Prov. 10:30, Jn. 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thes. 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Ps. 50:3-5, cf. Mk. 13:27) by their works (2 Cor. 5:10, Rom. 2:6-8, Lk. 12:45-48, Mt. 25:19-30) and then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Rev. 19:7-8, Mt. 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" (Rev. 3:5). Then they will mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Rev. 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the unsaved armies of the world (Rev. 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Rev. 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isa. 25:6-9, 1 Cor. 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for a thousand years (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

seeking Christ said in post 33:

There is one return, on the day of judgment itself.

When Jesus returns, only the church will be bodily resurrected and finally-judged (1 Cor. 15:21-23, Rev. 20:5, Ps. 50:3-5, cf. Mk. 13:27; Mt. 25:19-30, 2 Cor. 5:10, Lk. 12:45-48). The bodily resurrected church (including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist) will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for a thousand years (Rev. 19:7-20:6, 5:10, 2:26-29, Ps. 66:3-4, 72:8-11, Zech 14:3-21). Only sometime after the thousand years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Rev. 20:7-10, Ezek. chs. 38-39) will the rest of the dead be bodily resurrected (Rev. 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).

 

[Bible2]

seeking Christ said in post 33:

Is that from Islam?

By "that" do you mean posts 30-31? If so, no, they're based on the Bible's prophecies.

With regard to Islam's prophecies (which haven't been discussed yet), some Christians like to look into them to see how they compare with the Bible's prophecies. For example, there's the Islamic prophecy of a future individual called "the 12th Imam", or "the Mahdi", whom some Christians believe will be the same as the Antichrist.

During the Antichrist's rise to power -- i.e. before he declares himself God (2 Thes. 2:4, Dan. 11:36) and begins his future, literal, 3.5-year worldwide reign (Rev. 13:4-18) -- if he greatly increases the military and political power of the Arab world, which is mostly Muslim, many Muslims could declare him to be the Mahdi. They could do this even though he won't fulfill most of the detailed Muslim prophecies regarding the Mahdi. For the Muslim prophecies regarding the Mahdi aren't scriptural, and so nothing requires they'll all be fulfilled. Also, the Antichrist could reject the solely-human title of the "Mahdi", in his own mind, as being far beneath what he sees as his divinity. And before he declares himself to be God, if he rejects the title of "Mahdi" publicly, he could pretend to do so for humble reasons, saying something like: "Oh, no, I am not the great Mahdi, but a humble peacemaker who wants the best for all Arabs and for all mankind, no matter what religion they may presently follow", etc.

Also, the first person whom Muslims will declare to be the Mahdi may not even be the Antichrist. For before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Dan. 11:21-45), an Iraqi Baathist General could lead an all-out war against Israel which will result in the total defeat and occupation of Israel (Dan. 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"). This Iraqi Baathist General could then be hailed by the Muslims worldwide as the Mahdi. But he will subsequently suffer a defeat (perhaps in Algeria) and then he'll mysteriously disappear (Dan. 11:18-19), so that the Muslims could say they were mistaken in thinking he was the Mahdi.

Similarly, years later, when the Antichrist claims to be God (2 Thes. 2:4, Dan. 11:36) and starts forcing the world to worship him (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) (Rev. 13:4-8, 12:9) and an image of the Antichrist (Rev. 13:15), if many Muslims had said he was the Mahdi, some of them could say they were mistaken. Also, these actions by the Antichrist will result in a fatwa (a death sentence) being issued against him by radical Muslim clerics, which fatwa Islamic terrorists could then try to carry out by waging all-out jihad ("holy war") against him. For they hold most strongly to Islam's tenets that no man can be God, that Lucifer/Satan is evil, and that no image can be worshipped. But the terrorist part of Islam (just as even the moderate part of Islam, and just as even public, Biblical Christianity) will eventually be wiped out during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, when everyone (not in hiding) will be forced to either convert to the Antichrist's religion of Gnostic Luciferianism or be killed (Rev. 13:4-18, 1 Jn. 2:22, 2 Jn. 1:7).

Also, even though Jews today don't go around killing people for religious reasons, by the time the Antichrist declares himself to be God, some ultra-Orthodox Jews, led by a miracle-working false "Messiah", might also feel inspired to try to kill the Antichrist for blasphemy, especially when he will commit it even within their own temple (2 Thes. 2:4), and will defile their temple (Dan. 11:31,36, Mt. 24:15). The Antichrist could also sit in every other religions' holiest shrine and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc. This could result in the radical adherents of every religion becoming so enraged at the Antichrist that they will attempt to assassinate him. (But they will all fail, for he won't be defeated until Jesus returns: 2 Thes. 2:8-9, Rev. 19:20.)

Many moderate Muslims could become convinced by the miracle-working False Prophet (Rev. 19:20) that the early manuscripts of the Koran were partially corrupted by men, so that many Muslims will accept whatever the False Prophet tells them is correct and incorrect in the Koran. (He could do the same thing with many Christians with regard to the Bible.)

In Muslim prophecy, besides the Mahdi, there's also "The Masih ad-Dajjal", or "The False Messiah", whom Muslims say will appear in the end times. While Bible prophecy shows there will be multiple false Messiahs, who will be able to perform amazing miracles (Mt. 24:24), Muslims could focus on one of these, a miracle-working ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" in Israel, as being "The Masih ad-Dajjal", after he declares himself to be the Messiah but then (with his ultra-Orthodox Jewish followers) destroys the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem to clear the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple.

It could be this destruction of the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, by a man the Muslims could declare to be "The Masih ad-Dajjal", that will give rise to the war in which another man, an Arab who could be the first man the Muslims will declare to be the Mahdi, will completely defeat and occupy Israel (Dan. 11:15-17).

 

[damascusroad]

Bible2, I don't know what author you are quoting and expounding upon, just that it isn't God and His Word. I don't know how old you are or how much time you have invested in your "study," but I would encourage you to start over, with Genesis 1:1.

We Christians will not be here for the dread and awful days of the Great Tribulation. The Kingdom of God on earth is the Kingdom promised to the Jews, with Jesus seated on the Throne of David for 1,000 years, ruling over the 12 Tribes of Israel.

Those of us who are born again will be caught up to meet Him in the air ..... pre-trib, pre-millenial. The Bible is clear .... the preterists and the amillenialists, the "no rapture" folks, and on and on simply get it wrong .... sadly.

Amen.

 

[KrazyCanadian1962]

Like any court, We are innocent until proven guilty. No human, angel or demon will be able to prove Christ is guilty of anything because He is totally righteous.

Humans, on the other hand, won't be difficult to prove as guilty. We all are and the proof is abundant for each of us.

At the judgement, God will find us guilty, Jesus will hand over our pardon. end of story. OR the beginning....

Satan may be there to say "look at this sinner, he is not worthy" etc etc...but the blood of Christ will save us. And Satan will have no argument.

 

[Spunkn]

Like any court, We are innocent until proven guilty. No human, angel or demon will be able to prove Christ is guilty of anything because He is totally righteous.

Humans, on the other hand, won't be difficult to prove as guilty. We all are and the proof is abundant for each of us.

At the judgement, God will find us guilty, Jesus will hand over our pardon. end of story. OR the beginning....

Satan may be there to say "look at this sinner, he is not worthy" etc etc...but the blood of Christ will save us. And Satan will have no argument.

It's actually the other way around. We are guilty because of sin, until we accept Christ. Then we are made righteous. None of us are ever truly innocent.

 

[Bible2]

damascusroad said in post 38:

We Christians will not be here for the dread and awful days of the Great Tribulation.

The Bible shows we Christians will still be here during the future tribulation (Mt. 24:9-13, Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6).

The Kingdom of God on earth is the Kingdom promised to the Jews, with Jesus seated on the Throne of David for 1,000 years, ruling over the 12 Tribes of Israel.

All genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Rom. 11:1, Acts 4:36), and all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Rom. 11:17,24, Eph. 2:12,19, Gal. 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezek. 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Rev. 21:9,12).

This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Mt. 26:28, 1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:6, Heb. 9:15), & the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jer. 31:31-34, Jn. 4:22b). Jn. 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Cor. 12:13, Eph. 4:4-6, Rev. 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Mt. 21:22), without any wavering (cf. Jas. 1:6-7). Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Rom. 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Rom. 2:29, Philip. 3:3, Col. 2:11-13).

Those of us who are born again will be caught up to meet Him in the air ..... pre-trib, pre-millenial.

The Bible shows the rapture will be post-trib, pre-millennial (see post 36).

 

[Bible2]

damascusroad said in post 38:

The Bible is clear .... the preterists and the amillenialists, the "no rapture" folks, and on and on simply get it wrong .... sadly.

That's right.

While 2 Thes. 2:1-8 is most often referred to in order to refute the mistaken idea of an imminent, pre-trib coming of Jesus & rapture of the church, Paul there wasn't so much countering pre-trib rapturism as full preterism, which mistakenly says the day of the Lord/Christ is already at hand (2 Thes. 2:2) (in the sense of already present), that the 2nd coming & rapture have already occurred (2 Thes. 2:1-2), that the resurrection of the church is already past (2 Tim. 2:18). Paul was careful to counter full preterism, for it can trouble (2 Thes. 2:2) & even overthrow the faith of some believers (2 Tim. 2:18). It can cause them to lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Rom. 8:23-25, Philip. 3:21, Lk. 24:39) at the 2nd coming (1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-53, 1 Thes. 4:15-16, Rev. 19:7-20:6).

Preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), pre-trib rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all have originated from the same spirit of fear, that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24. For these 5 views of preterism, historicism, pre-trib rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

Preterism says the tribulation happened in 70 AD. Historicism says it happened over a long period in history (for example, during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after). Pre-trib rapturism says Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the tribulation begins. Symbolicism says the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Mt. 6:24), or is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says the tribulation is only spiritual events, which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 begins in the future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezek. 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Mt. 24:9-31, Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some in the church completely unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Heb. 6:4-8, Jn. 15:6, 2 Tim. 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Mt. 24:9-12, 13:21, Isa. 8:21-22, Lk. 8:13).

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Pet. 4:12-13, Rev. 2:10), for even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6, Mt. 24:9-13), this will be to their gain (Philip. 1:21,23, 2 Cor. 5:8, 4:17-18, 2 Tim. 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Rom. 8:23-25, Philip. 3:21, Lk. 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-53, 1 Thes. 4:15-16, Rev. 19:7-20:6), which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31, Rev. 19:7-20:6).

-

Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (Jas. 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chs. 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Rev. 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians in every nation (Rev. 12:9,17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6, Mt. 24:9-13).

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), he first suffered the loss of his wealth and his servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14-15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But Job remained patient through all his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was completed, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, 1:3), and giving him the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against Job, for Job was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, the suffering of those in the church won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Rev. 12:9,17, cf. Rev. 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when God allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) to make war against Christians and physically overcome them in every nation (Rev. 12:9,17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, Mt. 24:9-13), stripping away all their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Rev. 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust God that they have no fear of suffering or death (Rev. 2:10, Heb. 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Cor. 5:8, Philip. 1:21,23, Rev. 6:9-10, Lk. 23:43).

Christians mustn't love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mk. 8:35-38, Jn. 12:25, Rev. 12:11), just as Christians mustn't love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their family from starving or getting killed (Mt. 10:37, Lk. 14:26). And Christians mustn't love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Mt. 6:24, 1 Tim. 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Lk. 14:33, 9:23, Mt. 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philip. 2:6-8, 2 Cor. 5:15, 1 Cor. 15:3).