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Who can be saved?

zippy2006

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In this way Lutheranism is neither Calvinist nor Arminian, and in some ways the Lutheran POV is that Calvinism and Arminianism share a common heritage which is completely different from the Lutheran.

From what you've said, it seems to me that Lutheranism accepts certain premises of Calvinism yet resists the logical conclusion of those premises.

For example:
  1. No one has the free will to choose God on their own.
  2. God chooses a part of humanity to be saved. In these he "overcomes" their natural resistance.
  3. God does not pass over anyone.
1 & 2 contradict 3. If I have 10 black marbles and paint 3 of them white, then I have passed over the other 7. If God decides not to elect some, and these have no power to save themselves, then God has damned them. Double Predestination is implicit, if not explicit.

If God really wants to save all, then why doesn't he? Is the natural resistance of some insurmountable? Is God's power limited in certain individuals? It doesn't seem to add up.

Edit: I was reading an article, Double or Nothing: Martin Luther's Doctrine of Predestination, and the author argues that ascribing "single predestination" to Luther is a modern idea:

Luther never taught any such doctrine as "single" predestination. The concept was clearly very foreign to him, as it required the suspension of God's sovereignty over the reprobation of man. Such a suspension to Luther was the "denial of Deity itself."[58]

Luther understood that in terms of God's predestination, the principle is indeed "double or nothing." Either God is sovereign over all things which comes to pass, or He is not sovereign at all.

Modern Lutheranism, however, treats reprobation in an almost agnostic fashion. Recall the quote from Robert Hoerber: "[T]he 'unreasonable' doctrine of election to salvation (but not to damnation) is a particularly comforting part of the gospel message."[59]

No explanation is given by Hoerber as to how it is possible (indeed, he admits that it is "unreasonable") for God to maintain sovereignty over election yet not over reprobation.

One can almost anticipate Luther's response that "the Christian's chief and only comfort in every adversity lies in knowing that God does not lie, but brings all things to pass immutably, and that His will cannot be resisted, altered, or impeded."[60]

Hoerber's supposedly "comforting" single predestinarian view is thus rejected by Luther himself. Comfort is only drawn through faith in God's sovereignty, not faith in His relinquishing of it.

Though Martin Luther and other Reformers like Calvin and Zwingli may have differed over many issues, such as the regulating principle of worship, the nature of the sacraments, the use of law in civil government, and the like, they never had a public disagreement over their respective doctrines of predestination.

In an age of controversy, this fact is quite remarkable, especially as the doctrine remains the most controversial of all doctrines. If one reads the doctrine as presented by the Reformers, a single, uniform, voice will be found: God is sovereign over heaven and hell, salvation and damnation, life and death.
 
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RC1970

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Edit: I was reading an article, Double or Nothing: Martin Luther's Doctrine of Predestination, and the author argues that ascribing "single predestination" to Luther is a modern idea:
The irony of Lutheranism is that there is very little of Luther's thought left in it. Luther himself predicted that this would happen. The Lutherans use the same language as Luther, but they redefine the terms, and you end up with a very human understanding of the things of God. It's really very sad.
 
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zippy2006

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The irony of Lutheranism is that there is very little of Luther's thought left in it. Luther himself predicted that this would happen. The Lutherans use the same language as Luther, but they redefine the terms, and you end up with a very human understanding of the things of God. It's really very sad.

Yeah, a main problem when a religion becomes unmoored from the founder or tradition is that it slowly morphs into nothing more than the zeitgeist. Since I disagree with much of Lutheranism, I would welcome reform on the basis of the early church or the Scriptures, but I simply don't see this happening. Yet some synods are better than others.

In reading Luther's quotes in that article I was actually impressed by the thoroughness with which he defended double predestination. I had never seen someone defend it in such detail, and many of his points certainly merit consideration.
 
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RC1970

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Yeah, a main problem when a religion becomes unmoored from the founder or tradition is that it slowly morphs into nothing more than the zeitgeist. Since I disagree with much of Lutheranism, I would welcome reform on the basis of the early church or the Scriptures, but I simply don't see this happening. Yet some synods are better than others.

In reading Luther's quotes in that article I was actually impressed by the thoroughness with which he defended double predestination. I had never seen someone defend it in such detail, and many of his points certainly merit consideration.
The Doctrines of Grace are always repugnant to the human way of thinking. We naturally want it to be about us, what we want and what we do, when, in fact, it's all about God, what He wants and what He does.
 
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zippy2006

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The Doctrines of Grace are always repugnant to the human way of thinking. We naturally want it to be about us, what we want and what we do, when, in fact, it's all about God, what He wants and what He does.

Perhaps that is true, but all Christians deny that God is the cause of sin. I just find Calvin and Luther's denial implausible in light of their understanding of sovereignty (and especially the philosophical presuppositions underlying it). The crucial absence in their theology is that of sufficient grace.
 
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RC1970

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Perhaps that is true, but all Christians deny that God is the cause of sin. I just find Calvin and Luther's denial implausible in light of their understanding of sovereignty (and especially the philosophical presuppositions underlying it). The crucial absence in their theology is that of sufficient grace.
How much Grace is "sufficient" for a spiritually dead person to be made born again?
 
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ViaCrucis

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The irony of Lutheranism is that there is very little of Luther's thought left in it. Luther himself predicted that this would happen. The Lutherans use the same language as Luther, but they redefine the terms, and you end up with a very human understanding of the things of God. It's really very sad.

I'm always fascinated by people who seem to think that Lutheranism is supposed to be "Anything Luther said".

Lutheranism is, and always has been, about a confession; and the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone. What Fr. Martin thought about eggs on toast for breakfast is irrelevant.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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RC1970

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I'm always fascinated by people who seem to think that Lutheranism is supposed to be "Anything Luther said".

Lutheranism is, and always has been, about a confession; and the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone. What Fr. Martin thought about eggs on toast for breakfast is irrelevant.

-CryptoLutheran
My point is, why use the man's name if you are going to reject most of his theology? I spent a few years in Lutheranism, and I can honestly say that it was truly a sorrowful experience.
 
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ViaCrucis

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My point is, why use the man's name if you are going to reject most of his theology? I spent a few years in Lutheranism, and I can honestly say that it was truly a sorrowful experience.

"Lutheran" isn't what the original Lutherans called themselves, it's a term that originated as an exonym and pejorative. "Evangelical" was the endonym, what Lutherans called and referred to themselves as, Evangelische in German. Evangelische is still the German word used to refer to Lutherans and other Protestants even today. Others called us Lutheran, as an attack, it was ultimately accepted and embraced in spite of that.

Also, we don't reject "most of his theology", what is it you imagine Lutherans reject that Luther taught?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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zippy2006

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Perhaps that is true, but all Christians deny that God is the cause of sin. I just find Calvin and Luther's denial implausible in light of their understanding of sovereignty (and especially the philosophical presuppositions underlying it). The crucial absence in their theology is that of sufficient grace.

Perhaps I spoke too soon:

…how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them... (John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,” 10:11)​
 
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ViaCrucis

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"The foreknowledge of God (praescientia) foresees and foreknows also that which is evil; however, not in such a manner as though it were God's gracious will that it should happen; but all that the perverse, wicked will of the devil and of men wills and desires to undertake and do, God sees and knows before; and His praescientia, that is, foreknowledge, observes its order also in wicked acts or works, inasmuch as a limit and measure is fixed by God to the evil which God does not will, how far it should go, and how long it should last, when and how He will hinder and punish it; for all of this God the Lord so overrules that it must redound to the glory of the divine name and to the salvation of His elect, and the godless, on that account, must be put to confusion.

However, the beginning and cause of evil is not God's foreknowledge (for God does not create and effect [or work] evil, neither does He help or promote it); but the wicked, perverse will of the devil and of men [is the cause of evil], as it is written Hos. 13:9: O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in Me is thy help. Also: Thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness. Ps. 5:4.
" - The Solid Declaration of Concord

God is not the cause of evil, neither is His foreknowledge of evil actions the cause of evil; the cause of evil is the wicked will of devils and men. Lutherans definitely do not believe that God is the author of the evil machinations of wicked creatures.

Predestination extends only to the believing. Not to the unbelieving, or to the wickedness found in this world; God has predestined us in Jesus, He has not predestined unbelief, stubbornness, or wickedness in the hearts of man or devil. The unbelief, wickedness, and evil of men and devils is of our own work and will; not God's.

"Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?" (Ezekiel 18:23)

"Say to them, 'As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?'" (Ezekiel 33:11)

"[God our Savior] who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4)

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

-CryptoLutheran
 
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