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Who can be saved?

ToBeLoved

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Yes and thats what calvinists teach.. That is a terrible charge to place before the Almighty God of all existence..
Exactly.

Calvinist believe e in really almost a different God because after they change all His perfect, loving and holy attributes to that He knew Adam and Eve would sin and that He predestined it, besides the predestining some to hell, then what kind of God have they created with their theology?

I think it is one of the most crippling doctrines in Christianity. Terrible.
 
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Adstar

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I'm sorry but this doesn't make sense to me. If God knows what we will do (which He does), then how is that God choosing? Just because God knows, how does that translate to "God chose"?

So do you think God chooses those who reject His will ?

He chose us from the very beggining of creation because He foreknew us, He knew we would accept the Way of salvation through the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ.. This does not mean we are the only ones called for many are called but few are chosen..
 
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Cnk12

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That is what the Bible teaches. You should look at Romans 9:14-24, particularly v22 which discusses "vessels prepared for destruction".

This site is a good source for explanation of this doctrine:
Ligonier Ministries

This portion is informative: "As the Creator, God has the right to do with His creation as He pleases. God is just and His glory is manifested in punishing those whom He has ordained to do evil just as a potter has the right to make some vessels fit for destruction."

This is not easy theology. But it is what the Bible teaches. We can either accept it--trust the Lord and lean not on our own understanding, or hold up objections to it and say that that makes God immoral according to our own standards.

Basically Calvinism takes into account the full counsel of God as is revealed to us in his word. You can certainly ignore portions of the Bible, therefore cherry-picking parts of it but what does that leave you? Your own made-up theology based on what you think is acceptable. The truth can be hard at times. But for those who do not want to accept truth, God will allow them their delusions as their just punishment (2 Thess 2:11).

Thank you for the explanation. I read the Romans verses you referenced (although I had to use NIV to absorb them) they certainly support your view. I haven't studied the Ligonier website you referenced as I have to get to work now, but I saved it and will be checking it out.

The Calvinist view is new to me. Though I'm not well read in the Bible, I have read the gospels and a few other books. The sense I had after reading those is that it would be in God's nature to offer salvation to all.

I'm very interested should you (or anyone) care to address a couple of other questions.

Given the Calvinist view...

1) ...does John 3:16 contradict Roman's 14 - 24? If not, how do you reconcile the two?

2) ...is it fair to deduce that God created souls whose only option is eternity in hell?
 
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ToBeLoved

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So do you think God chooses those who reject His will ?

He chose us from the very beggining of creation because He foreknew us, He knew we would accept the Way of salvation through the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ.. This does not mean we are the only ones called for many are called but few are chosen..
But how is that God choosing us? If WE live out our lives and either ACCEPT or REJECT Christ AND that is the only criteria that God bases who is 'chosen' then really we have chosen through our actions and God just foreknows.

So to say God has chosen, to me is misleading.

Foreknowledge is much different from God choosing.

And let me also add that God foreseeing is not predestining. To destine is to choose the outcome. If God foreknows what we will do, that is not predestining anything, that is who GOd is, Omnipresent and Omnipotent. God cannot not, know.
 
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Thank you for the explanation. I read the Romans verses you referenced (although I had to use NIV to absorb them) they certainly support your view. I haven't studied the Ligonier website you referenced as I have to get to work now, but I saved it and will be checking it out.

The Calvinist view is new to me. Though I'm not well read in the Bible, I have read the gospels and a few other books. The sense I had after reading those is that it would be in God's nature to offer salvation to all.

I'm very interested should you (or anyone) care to address a couple of other questions.

Given the Calvinist view...

1) ...does John 3:16 contradict Roman's 14 - 24? If not, how do you reconcile the two?

2) ...is it fair to deduce that God created souls whose only option is eternity in hell?


1)There is no verse Romans 13: 24 ????

2) Yes,, thats the oinly conclusion a 5 point calvinist can come to.. Terrible hey?
 
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But how is that God choosing us? If WE live out our lives and either ACCEPT or REJECT Christ AND that is the only criteria that God bases who is 'chosen' then really we have chosen through our actions and God just foreknows.

So to say God has chosen, to me is misleading.

Foreknowledge is much different from God choosing.

I don't know how to explain this in a simpler way.. God chose us because when we where called by the conviction of the Holy Spirit we accepted the love of the truth and embraced His atonement.. God having foreknowledge of every second of our lives before we ever lived could have our names written in His book of life while Adam and eve where still alive and walking about in the garden of Eden.. If a person believes in God giving accurate prophecy of the future then God must know the future before it happens in our universe time.. God see's all our times at one time from his Heavenly dimension..
 
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And let me also add that God foreseeing is not predestining. To destine is to choose the outcome. If God foreknows what we will do, that is not predestining anything, that is who GOd is, Omnipresent and Omnipotent. God cannot not, know.

I never said He predestines us to believe.. to accept His will.. We do that.. The verse says what he predestines us to::

Romans 8: KJV

29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

So He predestinated us to be saved / conformed to the image of His Son.. Not predestinate to believe..
 
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Cnk12

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God chose those who would embrace His will from His forknowledge of them ebracing his will.. God did not force one person to accept His will and force another person to reject His will.. God from the very foundation of creation know all history and foreknew those who would embrace His will and from that foreknowledge He predesitnes those who will be conformed to the image of the Messiah Jesus..

Free will has always been active in humanity. And we chose to accept or reject Gods will..

I am Not a calvanist ...

That was always my understanding, therefore my surprise when I learned of the Calvinist point of view. That God, unconstrained by time, would always know who will be saved makes more sense to me. Though at the same time, the scripture referred to, Romans 9:14-24 by dhh712 does seem to support her view.
 
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Cnk12

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1)There is no verse Romans 13: 24 ????

2) Yes,, thats the oinly conclusion a 5 point calvinist can come to.. Terrible hey?

Sorry, the scripture I meant to reference was Romans 9, verses 14 - 24
 
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ViaCrucis

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Thank you for the explanation. I read the Romans verses you referenced (although I had to use NIV to absorb them) they certainly support your view. I haven't studied the Ligonier website you referenced as I have to get to work now, but I saved it and will be checking it out.

The Calvinist view is new to me. Though I'm not well read in the Bible, I have read the gospels and a few other books. The sense I had after reading those is that it would be in God's nature to offer salvation to all.

I'm very interested should you (or anyone) care to address a couple of other questions.

Given the Calvinist view...

1) ...does John 3:16 contradict Roman's 14 - 24? If not, how do you reconcile the two?

2) ...is it fair to deduce that God created souls whose only option is eternity in hell?

As a Lutheran I would counter the Calvinist use of Romans ch. 9 by insisting that it be read in light of the entire epistle to the Romans; indeed, Romans 9 disconnected from the rest of the epistle is deeply problematic. While I recommend reading the entire epistle (because Paul is making a very lengthy argument that begins in ch. 1 and finds its climax and culmination in ch. 11), I would at least recommend reading ch. 11.

In particular this: "God consigned all to disobedience that He might have mercy on all."

Further, in light of everything the New Testament teaches it must be made very clear also, "God is the Savior of all people, especially of those that believe" (1 Timothy 4:10) and also, "God desires that all be saved" (1 Timothy 2:3-4).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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That was always my understanding, therefore my surprise when I learned of the Calvinist point of view. That God, unconstrained by time, would always know who will be saved makes more sense to me. Though at the same time, the scripture referred to, Romans 9:14-24 by dhh712 does seem to support her view.

I would add also that Lutherans also believe in election, not on the basis of God knowing beforehand who would choose Him; but that He has indeed chosen us in Jesus. But election in Lutheranism is not about God choosing some to be saved and passing over others for damnation; it is instead about God's loving kindness toward us in Jesus who desires and causes our salvation by His own mercy. God passes over none, indeed God desires that all be saved. And all means all.

The Calvinist view is often called "Double Predestination" as it states that God has both predestined the elect to salvation and predestined the reprobate for destruction; Lutherans on the other hand absolutely and emphatically deny and reject double predestination; God has, in His grace, predestined us in Jesus, choosing us and electing us in Christ; but God has predestined nobody for destruction or damnation, indeed as said before God desires that ALL be saved. As a Lutheran I might acknowledge that the Calvinist position is "reasonable", but it is not biblical. The biblical view is indeed paradoxical according to Lutheranism; the paradox of God choosing His elect and, nevertheless, desiring all to be saved--and yet no one is saved by their own choosing, actions, or will but instead by the gracious work of Christ alone through God's efficacious means of grace, the preaching of the Gospel and the Holy Sacraments. Therefore no one is damned by God's choice or will, for God's will is the salvation of all, it is God's work to save all; it is only through our own will that we are damned, God does not damn us, we damn ourselves.

Here is what we might call a Lutheran alternative to TULIP:

Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Universal Atonement
Resistible Grace
Assurance of the Saints

Total Depravity, that is, man is sinful, broken, not only in part but in total, thus even man's will is subject to sin, and bent toward slavery to himself.

Unconditional Election, that is, God has chosen us in Christ apart from anything of ourselves--it was not on account of our worthiness or our acts or our choices that He has chosen us, it is solely on account of His great love and kindness in Jesus.

Universal Atonement, that is, Jesus Christ died for everyone, without exception.

Resistible Grace, that is, while the human will is not free to do that which is pleasing to God due to the yoke and bondage of sin, the will absolutely does by its own natural inclination flee from God and resist His grace; which is why no one can boast of his or her salvation since it is God alone who causes it to be; having overcome us with His love and grace by the power of the Holy Spirit through the Means of His grace.

Assurance of the Saints, that is, we can be confident and certain in the promises of God in Jesus, that He who began a good work in us will continue that good work until the day Christ returns; that we are indeed truly saved in Christ, and that though we might and will fail Him, Jesus won't fail us.

In this way Lutheranism is neither Calvinist nor Arminian, and in some ways the Lutheran POV is that Calvinism and Arminianism share a common heritage which is completely different from the Lutheran. For Lutherans the chief and guiding principle of theology is the grace of God in Jesus Christ. It isn't God's sovereignty (Calvinism) or man's free will (Arminianism), it is instead the good, gracious, and Incarnate God crucified and raised from the dead for us. It's all about Jesus, it's all about grace.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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dhh712

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1) ...does John 3:16 contradict Roman's 14 - 24? If not, how do you reconcile the two?

2) ...is it fair to deduce that God created souls whose only option is eternity in hell?

1) I don't see any contradiction--whoever does believe upon Jesus will not perish but have eternal life.

2) that seems to be what creating vessels for destruction means.
 
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ripple the car

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Hi, Today I read the following... It was the #2 reply to a post in General Theology titled "Pretend I'm an atheist. How would you convert me?"
"I hope you receive plenty of replies from mature believers but my two cents worth is WE humans do not convert anyone only the HOLY SPIRIT can convert after GOD THE FATHER has chosen to hover over the unbeliever. We can spend years talking to brick walls becoming disheartened over it but GOD will have compassion on those HE chooses and not everyone is chosen."
Over the years I've heard others say that not everyone is chosen. So my questions are...
1) Did Jesus' death and resurrection provide a path to eternal life for everyone, or just the chosen?
2) If we were created with a free will, is it reasonable to deduce that anyone can choose to accept Christ? Or is it only the chosen?
Thank you,
Charles

I would say that Christ calls out to everyone, but that not all respond to and follow Him. Not all get to hear of Him, either. Whether there's an opportunity for reconciliation with God through Christ after death for such people... I hope so.

I would also say that to trust in and begin to follow, and continue to follow Christ is both an act of human will and an act of God's will, begun and fulfilled by His grace. So.... it's not what I say that might automatically cause a light bulb to go on in your head, though the thing people say to us can definitely be used by God and inspired by Him to nudge us along towards Christ.

Rather, our journey towards and with Christ is just that, a journey that the soul goes on. I can't spark or ignite that journey in you by repeating a simple statement or fact, but certainly God can use folks on here to encourage and speak to you.
 
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dhh712

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And Calvinists believe a perfect God led Adam and Eve to sin in the Garden.

We don't believe that, not sure where you're coming up with that from. God had nothing to do with Adam and Eve's sin. He doesn't lead anyone to sin. It is clear that God cannot be held responsible for sin. Calvinism is a difficult theology. If you want to believe that God has no control over people who sin and and they're just doing something which God had not ordained (or something along those lines, I don't know, it's not my belief), that's fine. That's a lot easier to believe. I really don't care to get into arguments which cause division among brothers and sisters in Christ. The necessity for salvation we can all agree on: that Jesus Christ had died for us so that we can enjoy eternity with our Heavenly Father.
 
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ToBeLoved

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We don't believe that, not sure where you're coming up with that from. God had nothing to do with Adam and Eve's sin. He doesn't lead anyone to sin. It is clear that God cannot be held responsible for sin. Calvinism is a difficult theology. If you want to believe that God has no control over people who sin and and they're just doing something which God had not ordained (or something along those lines, I don't know, it's not my belief), that's fine. That's a lot easier to believe. I really don't care to get into arguments which cause division among brothers and sisters in Christ. The necessity for salvation we can all agree on: that Jesus Christ had died for us so that we can enjoy eternity with our Heavenly Father.
Honey, if there is no free will, then God planned it in Calvinism. One cannot agree that no one has free will and then not take Adam and Eve as the first example.

Problem with Calvinism is they don't like the negative things that come along with their crazy doctrine.
 
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dhh712

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Honey, if there is no free will, then God planned it in Calvinism. One cannot agree that no one has free will and then not take Adam and Eve as the first example.

Problem with Calvinism is they don't like the negative things that come along with their crazy doctrine.

That's not true. There is free will and God is completely sovereign (God made man completely upright; his creation was very good according to our Lord. Adam by his own free will choose to disobey God--the Lord had nothing to do with that. Thus his nature became--outside of God causing it to be that way so that he is at fault--sinful. Thus the only free will we have is to freely sin because that is our nature now. God uses man's sinful nature to his eternal purpose but is not at fault because there can exist no sin in him. God does send evil things upon us. There are many verses in God's word that attest to this: Amos 3:6 and Isaiah 45:7 come to mind. Yet God is perfect and those "evil" things are part of his just punishment upon his creation).

Our free will and God's sovereignty really doesn't make much sense to us, but that is what's in the Bible. I'm sorry you find the doctrine offensive; it's best we don't argue about it and accept each other's differences. There will always be disagreement about gray areas in the Bible, that's just a part of existing in this imperfect world. We each think we have it right and should believe what we are led to believe as long we have read his word thoroughly and tried to grasp what the spirit is saying to us. We won't know who's right on this side of glory, all we have is faith in the evidence of things not seen.

As I've said before, the necessary doctrine of salvation is that Jesus died for us so we can be with our creator for eternity. Believe upon the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, there are no exceptions. I personally find the Calvinistic doctrine to be the only theology that makes the most perfect logical sense as far as our logic can comprehend an infinite being. I've been exposed to other Christian theologies and for each one I couldn't come to grips with some of the teachings. I couldn't fully take it with my heart soul and mind because the God taught there just seemed off, something just didn't seem right. When God led me to Calvinism, the scales fell from my eyes. Everything fell into place and the Spirit gave me the gift of faith. Without understanding the doctrine, my faith would have fallen away long before this (The object of faith is the Lord Jesus and the doctrine is what is known of him. Of course, that is the secondary means by which my faith is maintained; it is only by the power of the Lord that my faith is preserved). Does that mean it is right? I don't know empirically. All I have to show for that is my faith in the Lord, that is how I know it is right.

I really try to avoid arguments here and directly slandering another person's beliefs (though when I'm trying to explain my beliefs to a third party, it may seem that way to someone who has differing beliefs). It is quite apparent to me you think very negatively of Calvinism, so I will discontinue this discussion and wish you the best in our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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Cnk12

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1) I don't see any contradiction--whoever does believe upon Jesus will not perish but have eternal life.

2) that seems to be what creating vessels for destruction means.

Your answer to question 2 seems counterintuitive to me, at least from what I've read in the Bible. But I'm still trying to figure out if any of the major world views are the "truth." What you say in your later posts about not arguing when both views are held firm, and focusing on being brothers and sisters in Christ makes the most sense to me.
 
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Cnk12

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I would add also that Lutherans also believe in election, not on the basis of God knowing beforehand who would choose Him; but that He has indeed chosen us in Jesus. But election in Lutheranism is not about God choosing some to be saved and passing over others for damnation; it is instead about God's loving kindness toward us in Jesus who desires and causes our salvation by His own mercy. God passes over none, indeed God desires that all be saved. And all means all.

The Calvinist view is often called "Double Predestination" as it states that God has both predestined the elect to salvation and predestined the reprobate for destruction; Lutherans on the other hand absolutely and emphatically deny and reject double predestination; God has, in His grace, predestined us in Jesus, choosing us and electing us in Christ; but God has predestined nobody for destruction or damnation, indeed as said before God desires that ALL be saved. As a Lutheran I might acknowledge that the Calvinist position is "reasonable", but it is not biblical. The biblical view is indeed paradoxical according to Lutheranism; the paradox of God choosing His elect and, nevertheless, desiring all to be saved--and yet no one is saved by their own choosing, actions, or will but instead by the gracious work of Christ alone through God's efficacious means of grace, the preaching of the Gospel and the Holy Sacraments. Therefore no one is damned by God's choice or will, for God's will is the salvation of all, it is God's work to save all; it is only through our own will that we are damned, God does not damn us, we damn ourselves.

Here is what we might call a Lutheran alternative to TULIP:

Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Universal Atonement
Resistible Grace
Assurance of the Saints

Total Depravity, that is, man is sinful, broken, not only in part but in total, thus even man's will is subject to sin, and bent toward slavery to himself.

Unconditional Election, that is, God has chosen us in Christ apart from anything of ourselves--it was not on account of our worthiness or our acts or our choices that He has chosen us, it is solely on account of His great love and kindness in Jesus.

Universal Atonement, that is, Jesus Christ died for everyone, without exception.

Resistible Grace, that is, while the human will is not free to do that which is pleasing to God due to the yoke and bondage of sin, the will absolutely does by its own natural inclination flee from God and resist His grace; which is why no one can boast of his or her salvation since it is God alone who causes it to be; having overcome us with His love and grace by the power of the Holy Spirit through the Means of His grace.

Assurance of the Saints, that is, we can be confident and certain in the promises of God in Jesus, that He who began a good work in us will continue that good work until the day Christ returns; that we are indeed truly saved in Christ, and that though we might and will fail Him, Jesus won't fail us.

In this way Lutheranism is neither Calvinist nor Arminian, and in some ways the Lutheran POV is that Calvinism and Arminianism share a common heritage which is completely different from the Lutheran. For Lutherans the chief and guiding principle of theology is the grace of God in Jesus Christ. It isn't God's sovereignty (Calvinism) or man's free will (Arminianism), it is instead the good, gracious, and Incarnate God crucified and raised from the dead for us. It's all about Jesus, it's all about grace.

-CryptoLutheran

Once again thank you for your thoughtful and thorough reply. I have a lot of food for thought.
 
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JoeP222w

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1) Did Jesus' death and resurrection provide a path to eternal life for everyone, or just the chosen?

For only the elect of God. The elect are those chosen by God, according to the counsel of His own will, not based in any merit of man. The non-elect do not want God and they never will. No one will ever be able to say "I wanted to go to Heaven, but God would not let me, because He did not choose me." No one will be able to say that. And anyone who promotes that is simply not reading the Bible.

We don't know who the elect are. And no one is elected to condemnation. Condemnation is the natural path of all people. God is the only one who elects people to salvation. Anyone who promotes that people are elect to condemnation is also not reading the Bible.

2) If we were created with a free will, is it reasonable to deduce that anyone can choose to accept Christ? Or is it only the chosen?

No where in the Bible does it say that man has an autonomous free will, i.e. that man can choose freely that which is outside of his or her nature. And the natural man, not regenerated by God will only choose that which is not of God.

God is the one who regenerates the soul, those He elects to salvation, so only the elect seek God. Those who are elect will not choose to not be with God.
 
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