Who can be saved?

Lukaris said:

I think John 3:16-21 answers the question that God wants all to be saved. It is only by the cooperation of our free will with the saving grace of God that we are saved. Either we accept Christ
as our savior ( Ephesians 2:8-10 ) or by grace,have lived worthily of God's grace ( Romans 2:6-16 ).

We either choose good or evil ( John 5:22-30, Ezekiel 18:1-9 etc. ).

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John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

chriscomplex said:

Do they have a chance to not go to hell without God? That is the question.

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Is God obligated to give everyone a "chance" to choose Him? Is God sovereign or is man?

The non-elect will not choose God. It is a fallacious statement to say that the non-elect will choose God, if only would have given them the "chance".

Adstar said:

God did not force one person to accept His will and force another person to reject His will.

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How about Paul or Lydia?

Did God ask Paul to step off his horse on the Damascus road?

Or how about Pharaoh?

There are many examples in the Bible where your claim is proven untrue.

Adstar said:

Yes and thats what calvinists teach..

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You have a misunderstanding of Calvinism. That is not what Calvinism teaches.

JoeP222w said:

Is God obligated to give everyone a "chance" to choose Him? Is God sovereign or is man?

The non-elect will not choose God. It is a fallacious statement to say that the non-elect will choose God, if only would have given them the "chance".

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Well a third option would help.

Cnk12 said:

That was always my understanding, therefore my surprise when I learned of the Calvinist point of view. That God, unconstrained by time, would always know who will be saved makes more sense to me. Though at the same time, the scripture referred to, Romans 9:14-24 by dhh712 does seem to support her view.

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Well lets review that passage..

(Romans 9:14-18) "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. {15} For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. {16} So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. {17} For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. {18} Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

God saying:: " I will have mercy on who i shall have mercy and i will have compassion on whom i will have compassion" does not support calvinism God will have mercy and compassion on those who will embrace his will and accept the Atonement He has lovingly offered to all people..


The next part:: "" So then it is not of him that willeth , nor on him that runneth but that God who showeth Mercy"" This to me is talking about a mans will to be perfect and his efforts to be perfect through his works.. All Christians should know that we are not saved because we will to be good or we put in a lot of efforts at doing rightious works or sin avoidance.. We are saved by being in a position where God can be rightiously mercufull towards us.. We get in the right place with God when we believe His will and trust in the atonement He sercured for our salvation..

The Next part:""""For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."""

This is talking about the Pharaoh of Egypt during the times of the exodus.. Note the scriptures say God raised him up.. It does Not say God created him for this purpose.. God raised him up to the position of Pharaoh,, God foreknew Pharaoh how he would twice harden his own heart and rebel against Gods will twice by his own free will before God then kept Pharaohs heart hardened for the final great signs and wonders done in the land of Egypt. These signs where needed to prove to the world that God was the one freeing the Hebrews from Egypt and not Moses.. Yes God told Moses that He would harden Pharaohs heart But God never hardened his heart from the first.. As the scripture states..


(Exodus 8:31-32) "And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; and he removed the swarms of flies from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people; there remained not one. {32} And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go."

But later we read::
(Exodus 9:11-12) "And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils; for the boil was upon the magicians, and upon all the Egyptians. {12} And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses."

Those who refuse the will of God by their own free will can be sent strong delusions and be deceived and kept in a state of rebellion as we read it shall happen in the future:::

(2 Thessalonians 2:8-12) "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, {10} And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. {11} And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: {12} That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Here we see that these end times people will be given over to strong delusions and great deception Because they first rejected the will of God that they accept the Gospel ( the love of the truth that saves ) but had pleasure in evil.. So in the end times people who have rejected the gospel will be totally fooled by the anti-christ and all the lying signs and wonders ( miracles ) that will be performed by the false prophet..

So God will have mercy on those who embrace His mercy and he will harden people who reject His mercy and prefer evil..

JoeP222w said:

How about Paul or Lydia?

Did God ask Paul to step off his horse on the Damascus road?

Or how about Pharaoh?

There are many examples in the Bible where your claim is proven untrue.

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God did not take over Pauls will to force him to believe like a zombie.. Yes God did appear to Paul and kicked him off his horse.. God had mercy on Paul.. But God did not take over Pauls mind..

Read my post #46 i go into some detail about Pharaoh.. And God hardening people...

Cnk12 said:

1) Did Jesus' death and resurrection provide a path to eternal life for everyone, or just the chosen?

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2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

1 Timothy 2:5-6
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

1 Timothy 4:10
10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Cnk12 said:

2) If we were created with a free will, is it reasonable to deduce that anyone can choose to accept Christ? Or is it only the chosen?

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All those who God knows in His omniscience will freely choose to trust in Christ will do so. It is these who are "elected" to salvation.

Selah.

chriscomplex said:

Well a third option would help.

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Is God required to give man "options"?

Adstar said:

Well lets review that passage..

(Romans 9:14-18) "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. {15} For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. {16} So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. {17} For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. {18} Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

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Truthfully, I think this is God saying that life is not always fair and for God's will to be done sometimes he intervenes, sometimes he doesn't.

I really don't even associate that with any pro Calvinism.

ToBeLoved said:

Truthfully, I think this is God saying that life is not always fair and for God's will to be done sometimes he intervenes, sometimes he doesn't.

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Life in this fallen world cannot be fair.. A courrupt world will bring about injustices all the time. Thats why we look forward with joyfull hope for the coming of the LORD Jesus Christ and our entry into Eternity. Because we know we will then be living in a fair and perfect word where we shall also be without corruption .

God injects His intervention into this world at critical moments to keep the world on track to ensure it plays it's part in His eternal plan..

I really don't even associate that with any pro Calvinism.

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I am happy to hear that.

Cnk12 said:

Are the non-elect purposefully created by God not be chosen?

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God has the sovereign right to do with His creation as He chooses. [Romans 9]

Cnk12 said:

Or is it that God created everyone to have a chance at redemption but always knew they'd not opt for it because He is not constrained by time?

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Is God obligated to give man a "chance"? Can grace be demanded?

The non-elect will not choose God, they have no desire for Him, they never will. We do not know who the elect are.

Cnk12 said:

Among those is why He might create souls for eternal damnation. Despite that, the concept seems to contradict His nature as at least I am able to understand it.

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I am not talking about neutral people, innocent of all guilt. They (we) are rebel sinners, each and every one of us, until God does a sovereign work of grace in the heart of the unbeliever, according to His own choosing, and not by any work or anything special in the individual. Salvation is all of God's work and Him alone.

JoeP222w said:

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

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God's Word says that He has revealed Himself to all through creation so man is without excuse so all are called.

Romans 1:19-20
What may be known of God is manifest in them for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

JoeP222w said:

God has the sovereign right to do with His creation as He chooses. [Romans 9]

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God could, but we know that from the beginning we have free will.

God has made the rules and He has chosen to let His creation choose.

JoeP222w said:

Is God obligated to give man a "chance"? Can grace be demanded?

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But Jesus Christ already died for all to have grace, so no one demands grace because it was freely given by Christ.

This scenario does not exist. God already decided before the world was created to extend grace.

JoeP222w said:

I am not talking about neutral people, innocent of all guilt. They (we) are rebel sinners, each and every one of us, until God does a sovereign work of grace in the heart of the unbeliever, according to His own choosing, and not by any work or anything special in the individual. Salvation is all of God's work and Him alone.

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With this theology, why did God punish the Israelite's in the Old Testament for disobeying Him? God indicates over and over that they are His chosen people, so we know God chose them. However, God let them sin against Him if they chose to and they did. Then and only then did God punish them for making and executing that decision to not obey Him and He had the prophets warning the people, before God held them responsible for those decisions.

So how does Calvinism explain the OT and God's punishment of the people for non-obedience? Because they are God's special people, set apart from all the others.

Cnk12 said:

Hi, Today I read the following... It was the #2 reply to a post in General Theology titled "Pretend I'm an atheist. How would you convert me?"
"I hope you receive plenty of replies from mature believers but my two cents worth is WE humans do not convert anyone only the HOLY SPIRIT can convert after GOD THE FATHER has chosen to hover over the unbeliever. We can spend years talking to brick walls becoming disheartened over it but GOD will have compassion on those HE chooses and not everyone is chosen."
Over the years I've heard others say that not everyone is chosen. So my questions are...
1) Did Jesus' death and resurrection provide a path to eternal life for everyone, or just the chosen?
2) If we were created with a free will, is it reasonable to deduce that anyone can choose to accept Christ? Or is it only the chosen?
Thank you,
Charles

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Hi there Charles, welcome to the path! I just noticed your thread here, and I see you're on track. I thought you'd also be interested to see what we are finding out about the judgement through this other thread:

Why are we accountable if we did not ask to be born?

Cnk12 said:

So my questions are...
1) Did Jesus' death and resurrection provide a path to eternal life for everyone, or just the chosen?
2) If we were created with a free will, is it reasonable to deduce that anyone can choose to accept Christ? Or is it only the chosen?
Thank you,
Charles

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Yes, and yes. God gives everyone the grace to turn to Him, what remains is for us to respond.

JoeP222w said:

How about Paul or Lydia?

Did God ask Paul to step off his horse on the Damascus road?

Or how about Pharaoh?

There are many examples in the Bible where your claim is proven untrue.

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Paul was forced?