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Who can be saved?

Cnk12

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Hi, Today I read the following... It was the #2 reply to a post in General Theology titled "Pretend I'm an atheist. How would you convert me?"
"I hope you receive plenty of replies from mature believers but my two cents worth is WE humans do not convert anyone only the HOLY SPIRIT can convert after GOD THE FATHER has chosen to hover over the unbeliever. We can spend years talking to brick walls becoming disheartened over it but GOD will have compassion on those HE chooses and not everyone is chosen."
Over the years I've heard others say that not everyone is chosen. So my questions are...
1) Did Jesus' death and resurrection provide a path to eternal life for everyone, or just the chosen?
2) If we were created with a free will, is it reasonable to deduce that anyone can choose to accept Christ? Or is it only the chosen?
Thank you,
Charles
 

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1) Did Jesus' death and resurrection provide a path to eternal life for everyone, or just the chosen?
Only the chosen. Christ laid down his life for His sheep (John 10:11). Christ says that He prays for those who the Father has given to Him and not the whole world (John 17:9).

2) If we were created with a free will, is it reasonable to deduce that anyone can choose to accept Christ? Or is it only the chosen?
We do not have a free will when it comes to this. God puts us in Christ, we do not put ourselves there (John 6:35-41).
 
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Dave-W

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1) Did Jesus' death and resurrection provide a path to eternal life for everyone, or just the chosen?
2) If we were created with a free will, is it reasonable to deduce that anyone can choose to accept Christ? Or is it only the chosen?
The calvinist will answer that it is ONLY the chosen who can and will choose to accept Christ. i.e. no free will.


The Arminian will say anyone CAN chose, but most will not. i.e. Free will.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Hi, Today I read the following... It was the #2 reply to a post in General Theology titled "Pretend I'm an atheist. How would you convert me?"
"I hope you receive plenty of replies from mature believers but my two cents worth is WE humans do not convert anyone only the HOLY SPIRIT can convert after GOD THE FATHER has chosen to hover over the unbeliever. We can spend years talking to brick walls becoming disheartened over it but GOD will have compassion on those HE chooses and not everyone is chosen."
Over the years I've heard others say that not everyone is chosen. So my questions are...
1) Did Jesus' death and resurrection provide a path to eternal life for everyone, or just the chosen?
2) If we were created with a free will, is it reasonable to deduce that anyone can choose to accept Christ? Or is it only the chosen?
Thank you,
Charles

This gets somewhat complicated because there are theological disputes which exist. The quote you provided sounds Calvinist.

Calvinism, named after the French Protestant Reformer John (Jean) Calvin was also influenced by a controversy in the 17th century known as the Remonstrant Controversy; the Remonstrants were the followers of Jacob Arminius, a Dutch theologian who put forward a series of ideas which challenged some already established Calvinist ideas--the result was the Synod of Dordt which in response to the Articles of Remonstrance put forward what is today known as TULIP:

Total Depravity.
Unconditional Election.
Limited Atonement.
Irresistible Grace.
Perseverance of the Saints.

The one to focus on here is Limited Atonement; under TULIP Jesus only died for the elect--those chosen by God for salvation according to Unconditional Election and, due to the Irresistability of Grace cannot reject God's calling, and will indeed be saved and persevere until the end (that is, one cannot become "un-saved"); thus Christ did not die for everyone, Christ only died for those who would be saved according to God's election; God having passed by the rest.

So the answer to your questions are going to look a particular way if answered by a Five Point (TULIP) Calvinist then by someone else--a Lutheran, an Arminian, Catholic, Orthodox, etc.

In historic Protestantism there are, broadly speaking, three schools of thought:

1. Lutheranism
2. Calvinism (Reformed theology)
3. Arminianism

Since I'm Lutheran I'll answer your questions accordingly:

"Did Jesus' death and resurrection provide a path to eternal life for everyone, or just the chosen?"

Neither. Jesus' death and resurrection doesn't provide a path to eternal life, it achieves and accomplishes it; Christ died for everyone and everyone means everyone. Christ's work is the forgiveness of all sin, not just some sin; His work wasn't to provide an opportunity for people to become saved--it actually saves. So for Lutherans there is no "Limited Atonement" we would instead say it is Universal Atonement. Christ died for everyone and that is objectively so. St. Paul writes, "Even as in Adam all die, so in Christ all are made alive."

"If we were created with a free will, is it reasonable to deduce that anyone can choose to accept Christ? Or is it only the chosen?"

The will isn't truly free, while man has the capacity to make choices unburdened by exterior forces (e.g. fate) the will isn't truly free because the will is a slave to man's sinfulness; we are slaves to ourselves and thus the will is not truly free, it is bound and yoked under the burden of our own selfish and self-directed passions. So no one can choose to accept Christ of their own volition; it requires the external and exterior work of God, the Holy Spirit, to create faith in us in order that Christ's universal work might be appropriated to us. From Luther's Large Catechism:

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us. Therefore sanctifying is nothing else than bringing us to Christ to receive this good, to which we could not attain of ourselves."

The Holy Spirit makes this happen for our own good, God acts through His Word and Sacraments to create and work faith in us by which we can believe and trust upon Christ and be benefactors of His universal work. As such, we confess as is written in the 2nd chapter of St. Paul's letter to the Ephesians,

"But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christby grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life." (Ephesians 2:4-10)

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Cnk12

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This gets somewhat complicated because there are theological disputes which exist. The quote you provided sounds Calvinist.

Calvinism, named after the French Protestant Reformer John (Jean) Calvin was also influenced by a controversy in the 17th century known as the Remonstrant Controversy; the Remonstrants were the followers of Jacob Arminius, a Dutch theologian who put forward a series of ideas which challenged some already established Calvinist ideas--the result was the Synod of Dordt which in response to the Articles of Remonstrance put forward what is today known as TULIP:

Total Depravity.
Unconditional Election.
Limited Atonement.
Irresistible Grace.
Perseverance of the Saints.

The one to focus on here is Limited Atonement; under TULIP Jesus only died for the elect--those chosen by God for salvation according to Unconditional Election and, due to the Irresistability of Grace cannot reject God's calling, and will indeed be saved and persevere until the end (that is, one cannot become "un-saved"); thus Christ did not die for everyone, Christ only died for those who would be saved according to God's election; God having passed by the rest.

So the answer to your questions are going to look a particular way if answered by a Five Point (TULIP) Calvinist then by someone else--a Lutheran, an Arminian, Catholic, Orthodox, etc.

In historic Protestantism there are, broadly speaking, three schools of thought:

1. Lutheranism
2. Calvinism (Reformed theology)
3. Arminianism

Since I'm Lutheran I'll answer your questions accordingly:

"Did Jesus' death and resurrection provide a path to eternal life for everyone, or just the chosen?"

Neither. Jesus' death and resurrection doesn't provide a path to eternal life, it achieves and accomplishes it; Christ died for everyone and everyone means everyone. Christ's work is the forgiveness of all sin, not just some sin; His work wasn't to provide an opportunity for people to become saved--it actually saves. So for Lutherans there is no "Limited Atonement" we would instead say it is Universal Atonement. Christ died for everyone and that is objectively so. St. Paul writes, "Even as in Adam all die, so in Christ all are made alive."

"If we were created with a free will, is it reasonable to deduce that anyone can choose to accept Christ? Or is it only the chosen?"

The will isn't truly free, while man has the capacity to make choices unburdened by exterior forces (e.g. fate) the will isn't truly free because the will is a slave to man's sinfulness; we are slaves to ourselves and thus the will is not truly free, it is bound and yoked under the burden of our own selfish and self-directed passions. So no one can choose to accept Christ of their own volition; it requires the external and exterior work of God, the Holy Spirit, to create faith in us in order that Christ's universal work might be appropriated to us. From Luther's Large Catechism:

"For neither you nor I could ever know anything of Christ, or believe on Him, and obtain Him for our Lord, unless it were offered to us and granted to our hearts by the Holy Ghost through the preaching of the Gospel. The work is done and accomplished; for Christ has acquired and gained the treasure for us by His suffering, death, resurrection, etc. But if the work remained concealed so that no one knew of it, then it would be in vain and lost. That this treasure, therefore, might not lie buried, but be appropriated and enjoyed, God has caused the Word to go forth and be proclaimed, in which He gives the Holy Ghost to bring this treasure home and appropriate it to us. Therefore sanctifying is nothing else than bringing us to Christ to receive this good, to which we could not attain of ourselves."

The Holy Spirit makes this happen for our own good, God acts through His Word and Sacraments to create and work faith in us by which we can believe and trust upon Christ and be benefactors of His universal work. As such, we confess as is written in the 2nd chapter of St. Paul's letter to the Ephesians,

"But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christby grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life." (Ephesians 2:4-10)

-CryptoLutheran


Not that I don't appreciate the other answers because I like them too, but thanks for explaining all that.

Would it then be accurate to say that God/the Trinity will create faith in anyone who in all sincerity asks Him for it?

A couple of other comments...
I always felt that the atheist/agnostic critical question of: why would a benevolent God create people/souls that were destined for hell, was one of the weakest arguments. The answer I usually hear is, because we were created with free will. But the Calvinist view (provided I understand it correctly) seems to lend credence to that atheist/agnostic critical question.

The Bible is some set of writings. On one hand a few words can summarize the message, Eternal Life, Love, Forgiveness and Brotherhood, while at the same time its depth is incredible.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Not that I don't appreciate the other answers because I like them too, but thanks for explaining all that.

Would it then be accurate to say that God/the Trinity will create faith in anyone who in all sincerity asks Him for it?

I'd say that the person who, in all sincerity, desires and asks for faith already has faith. Like the man who came to Jesus saying, "Lord I believe, help my unbelief!"

-CryptoLutheran

A couple of other comments...
I always felt that the atheist/agnostic critical question of: why would a benevolent God create people/souls that were destined for hell, was one of the weakest arguments. The answer I usually hear is, because we were created with free will. But the Calvinist view (provided I understand it correctly) seems to lend credence to that atheist/agnostic critical question.

The Bible is some set of writings. On one hand a few words can summarize the message, Eternal Life, Love, Forgiveness and Brotherhood, while at the same time its depth is incredible.
 
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dhh712

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1) Did Jesus' death and resurrection provide a path to eternal life for everyone, or just the chosen?
2) If we were created with a free will, is it reasonable to deduce that anyone can choose to accept Christ? Or is it only the chosen?
Thank you,
Charles

1) Just the ones he elected before time began

2) We can only freely sin and can do no good to the glory of God. No one of us can choose God by our own free will. Only those on whom the Lord bestows his mercy will have Jesus in their lives.
 
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Another Lazarus

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1) Did Jesus' death and resurrection provide a path to eternal life for everyone, or just the chosen?


May be this video will answer your question, the train represents the world (all of us) which has violated the Red Light (sins) but the we/the world is not aware where they are going to after they die.

God has sent His beloved Son to prevent our eternal death by giving His only Life that all Jesus could give for us.

May Jesus bless you all HalleluYAH
 
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Cnk12

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1) Just the ones he elected before time began

2) We can only freely sin and can do no good to the glory of God. No one of us can choose God by our own free will. Only those on whom the Lord bestows his mercy will have Jesus in their lives.
1) Just the ones he elected before time began

2) We can only freely sin and can do no good to the glory of God. No one of us can choose God by our own free will. Only those on whom the Lord bestows his mercy will have Jesus in their lives.

Isn't it then logical to say that God created souls whose only option is eternity in hell?
 
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Cnk12

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May be this video will answer your question, the train represents the world (all of us) which has violated the Red Light (sins) but the we/the world is not aware where they are going to after they die.

God has sent His beloved Son to prevent our eternal death by giving His only Life that all Jesus could give for us.

May Jesus bless you all HalleluYAH

Loved the video, thanks. It's in line with what I feel makes the most sense from the Christian God as I understand Him. Everyone on the train is saved by the father's sacrifice of his son.
Apparently it's the Calvinist world view that I'm having trouble making sense out of. That is, people/souls were created who could only go to hell and never had or will have a chance at redemption.
 
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chriscomplex

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Hi, Today I read the following... It was the #2 reply to a post in General Theology titled "Pretend I'm an atheist. How would you convert me?"
"I hope you receive plenty of replies from mature believers but my two cents worth is WE humans do not convert anyone only the HOLY SPIRIT can convert after GOD THE FATHER has chosen to hover over the unbeliever. We can spend years talking to brick walls becoming disheartened over it but GOD will have compassion on those HE chooses and not everyone is chosen."
Over the years I've heard others say that not everyone is chosen. So my questions are...
1) Did Jesus' death and resurrection provide a path to eternal life for everyone, or just the chosen?
2) If we were created with a free will, is it reasonable to deduce that anyone can choose to accept Christ? Or is it only the chosen?
Thank you,
Charles
What does the bible say.
 
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Lukaris

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Hi, Today I read the following... It was the #2 reply to a post in General Theology titled "Pretend I'm an atheist. How would you convert me?"
"I hope you receive plenty of replies from mature believers but my two cents worth is WE humans do not convert anyone only the HOLY SPIRIT can convert after GOD THE FATHER has chosen to hover over the unbeliever. We can spend years talking to brick walls becoming disheartened over it but GOD will have compassion on those HE chooses and not everyone is chosen."
Over the years I've heard others say that not everyone is chosen. So my questions are...
1) Did Jesus' death and resurrection provide a path to eternal life for everyone, or just the chosen?
2) If we were created with a free will, is it reasonable to deduce that anyone can choose to accept Christ? Or is it only the chosen?
Thank you,
Charles

I think John 3:16-21 answers the question that God wants all to be saved. It is only by the cooperation of our free will with the saving grace of God that we are saved. Either we accept Christ
as our savior ( Ephesians 2:8-10 ) or by grace,have lived worthily of God's grace ( Romans 2:6-16 ).

We either choose good or evil ( John 5:22-30, Ezekiel 18:1-9 etc. ).
 
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dhh712

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Isn't it then logical to say that God created souls whose only option is eternity in hell?

That is what the Bible teaches. You should look at Romans 9:14-24, particularly v22 which discusses "vessels prepared for destruction".

This site is a good source for explanation of this doctrine:
Ligonier Ministries

This portion is informative: "As the Creator, God has the right to do with His creation as He pleases. God is just and His glory is manifested in punishing those whom He has ordained to do evil just as a potter has the right to make some vessels fit for destruction."

This is not easy theology. But it is what the Bible teaches. We can either accept it--trust the Lord and lean not on our own understanding, or hold up objections to it and say that that makes God immoral according to our own standards.

Basically Calvinism takes into account the full counsel of God as is revealed to us in his word. You can certainly ignore portions of the Bible, therefore cherry-picking parts of it but what does that leave you? Your own made-up theology based on what you think is acceptable. The truth can be hard at times. But for those who do not want to accept truth, God will allow them their delusions as their just punishment (2 Thess 2:11).
 
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chriscomplex

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Loved the video, thanks. It's in line with what I feel makes the most sense from the Christian God as I understand Him. Everyone on the train is saved by the father's sacrifice of his son.
Apparently it's the Calvinist world view that I'm having trouble making sense out of. That is, people/souls were created who could only go to hell and never had or will have a chance at redemption.
Do they have a chance to not go to hell without God? That is the question.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Basically Calvinism takes into account the full counsel of God as is revealed to us in his word. You can certainly ignore portions of the Bible, therefore cherry-picking parts of it but what does that leave you? Your own made-up theology based on what you think is acceptable. The truth can be hard at times. But for those who do not want to accept truth, God will allow them their delusions as their just punishment (2 Thess 2:11).
lol

And Calvinists believe a perfect God led Adam and Eve to sin in the Garden.
 
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Adstar

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Hi, Today I read the following... It was the #2 reply to a post in General Theology titled "Pretend I'm an atheist. How would you convert me?"
"I hope you receive plenty of replies from mature believers but my two cents worth is WE humans do not convert anyone only the HOLY SPIRIT can convert after GOD THE FATHER has chosen to hover over the unbeliever. We can spend years talking to brick walls becoming disheartened over it but GOD will have compassion on those HE chooses and not everyone is chosen."
Over the years I've heard others say that not everyone is chosen. So my questions are...
1) Did Jesus' death and resurrection provide a path to eternal life for everyone, or just the chosen?
2) If we were created with a free will, is it reasonable to deduce that anyone can choose to accept Christ? Or is it only the chosen?
Thank you,
Charles

God chose those who would embrace His will from His forknowledge of them ebracing his will.. God did not force one person to accept His will and force another person to reject His will.. God from the very foundation of creation know all history and foreknew those who would embrace His will and from that foreknowledge He predesitnes those who will be conformed to the image of the Messiah Jesus..

Free will has always been active in humanity. And we chose to accept or reject Gods will..

I am Not a calvanist ...
 
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Adstar

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Isn't it then logical to say that God created souls whose only option is eternity in hell?

Yes and thats what calvinists teach.. That is a terrible charge to place before the Almighty God of all existence..
 
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ToBeLoved

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God chose those who would embrace His will from His forknowledge of them ebracing his will.. God did not force one person to accept His will and force another person to reject His will..
I'm sorry but this doesn't make sense to me. If God knows what we will do (which He does), then how is that God choosing? Just because God knows, how does that translate to "God chose"?
 
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