Who are the 144,000?

[JoelParks]

Indeed.


Revelation 7:4-8 And [then] I heard how many were sealed (marked) out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: there were 144,000.

• 12,000 were sealed out of the tribe of Judah
• 12,000 of the tribe of Reuben
• 12,000 of the tribe of Gad
• 12,000 of the tribe of Asher
• 12,000 of the tribe of Naphtali
• 12,000 of the tribe of Manasseh
• 12,000 of the tribe of Simeon
• 12,000 of the tribe of Levi
• 12,000 of the tribe of Issachar
• 12,000 of the tribe of Zebulun
• 12,000 of the tribe of Joseph
• 12,000 of the tribe of Benjamin

 

[JoelParks]

this is something I've extracted from elsewhere... I found it interesting.




The 144,000 of Revelation -- A Deeper Meaning
Did you know that there is much more to the meaning of the 144,000 listed in Revelation 7 than most of us realize? Take a look at the list of the twelve tribes and how they're listed. This is the only place in the Bible that the list appears in this form. In Hebrew they often named the child a word that had a phrase to it. For example, When Leah gave birth to Judah she said "I will praise the Lord." When Reuben was born she said "He has looked upon my affliction". Normally the first born is listed first, but in this list in Revelation 7 Judah is listed first, not Reuben. Dan and Ephraim are completely left out for some reason. So it's a very interesting list! Here is the list and order they appear in Revelation 7:

1. Judah
2. Reuben
3. Gad
4. Asher
5. Naphtali
6. Manasseh
7. Simeon
8. Levi
9. Issachar
10. Zebulun
11. Joseph
12. Benjamin

What's even more interesting is when you take the tribes as listed in that order, and then discover the meaning of and/or why those names were given. Once you have the names, put it all in the order that the names are listed. Here are all the verses with the names: (KVJ/NASB):

Judah
Gen 29:35 And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the LORD: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing.

Reuben
Gen 29:32 And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me.

Gad
Gen 30:11 Then Leah said, "How fortunate!" So she named him Gad.

Asher
Gen 30:13 And Leah said, Happy am I, for the daughters will call me blessed: and she called his name Asher.

Nepthalim
Gen 30:8 And Rachel said, With great wrestlings have I wrestled with my sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali.

Manasses
Gen 41:51 And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh: For God, [said he], hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father's house.

Simeon
Gen 29:33 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Because the LORD hath heard that I [was] hated, he hath therefore given me this [son] also: and she called his name Simeon

Levi
Gen 29:34 "And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Now this time will my husband be joined unto me, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi.

Issachar
Gen 30:18 Then Leah said, "God has given me my wages because I gave my maid to my husband." So she named him Issachar..

Zebulon
Gen 30:20 Then Leah said, "God has endowed me with a good gift; now my husband will dwell with me, because I have borne him six sons." So she named him Zebulun.

Joseph
Gen 30:24 And she called his name Joseph; and said, The LORD shall add to me another son.

Benjamin
Gen 35:17-18 And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also. And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

So when we take them all and put them in the order that the tribes appear, we get the following:

Now will I praise the LORD, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction, How fortunate!, Happy am I, With great wrestlings have I wrestled and I have prevailed, For God hath made me forget all my toil, Because the LORD hath heard that I [was] hated, Now this time will my husband be joined unto me, God has given me my wages, God has endowed me with a good gift; now my husband will dwell with me, The LORD shall add to me, thou shalt have this son.

The way that they are listed describes the bride of God (Israel) and the battle between good and evil... This is the complete story of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ marrying His bride after delivering her from her affliction (Jacob's Trouble/The Tribulation).

 

[Jerrysch]

this is something I've extracted from elsewhere... I found it interesting.




The 144,000 of Revelation -- A Deeper Meaning
Did you know that there is much more to the meaning of the 144,000 listed in Revelation 7 than most of us realize? Take a look at the list of the twelve tribes and how they're listed. This is the only place in the Bible that the list appears in this form. In Hebrew they often named the child a word that had a phrase to it. For example, When Leah gave birth to Judah she said "I will praise the Lord." When Reuben was born she said "He has looked upon my affliction". Normally the first born is listed first, but in this list in Revelation 7 Judah is listed first, not Reuben. Dan and Ephraim are completely left out for some reason. So it's a very interesting list! Here is the list and order they appear in Revelation 7:

1. Judah
2. Reuben
3. Gad
4. Asher
5. Naphtali
6. Manasseh
7. Simeon
8. Levi
9. Issachar
10. Zebulun
11. Joseph
12. Benjamin

What's even more interesting is when you take the tribes as listed in that order, and then discover the meaning of and/or why those names were given. Once you have the names, put it all in the order that the names are listed. Here are all the verses with the names: (KVJ/NASB):

Judah
Gen 29:35 And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the LORD: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing.

Reuben
Gen 29:32 And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me.

Gad
Gen 30:11 Then Leah said, "How fortunate!" So she named him Gad.

Asher
Gen 30:13 And Leah said, Happy am I, for the daughters will call me blessed: and she called his name Asher.

Nepthalim
Gen 30:8 And Rachel said, With great wrestlings have I wrestled with my sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali.

Manasses
Gen 41:51 And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh: For God, [said he], hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father's house.

Simeon
Gen 29:33 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Because the LORD hath heard that I [was] hated, he hath therefore given me this [son] also: and she called his name Simeon

Levi
Gen 29:34 "And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Now this time will my husband be joined unto me, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi.

Issachar
Gen 30:18 Then Leah said, "God has given me my wages because I gave my maid to my husband." So she named him Issachar..

Zebulon
Gen 30:20 Then Leah said, "God has endowed me with a good gift; now my husband will dwell with me, because I have borne him six sons." So she named him Zebulun.

Joseph
Gen 30:24 And she called his name Joseph; and said, The LORD shall add to me another son.

Benjamin
Gen 35:17-18 And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also. And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

So when we take them all and put them in the order that the tribes appear, we get the following:

Now will I praise the LORD, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction, How fortunate!, Happy am I, With great wrestlings have I wrestled and I have prevailed, For God hath made me forget all my toil, Because the LORD hath heard that I [was] hated, Now this time will my husband be joined unto me, God has given me my wages, God has endowed me with a good gift; now my husband will dwell with me, The LORD shall add to me, thou shalt have this son.

The way that they are listed describes the bride of God (Israel) and the battle between good and evil... This is the complete story of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ marrying His bride after delivering her from her affliction (Jacob's Trouble/The Tribulation).

This is all well and good, but it really doesn't go too far to help people to understand the identity of the 144K does it?

 

[JoelParks]

um. yeah, the identity is in my post above the one you quoted. other than that, they're not revealed yet.

'sides, others went on tangents relating to the 144K, so I decided to use the platform to share some interesting semi-related tidbits for any interested.

nothing more, nothing less. let the discussion continue inspite, i never intended otherwise.

 

[Covenant Heart]

There is what he hears...

And there is what he sees.


It’s like ears…and eyes. Take for example what happens in Re 5:5. And elder says to John. What’s that? Is it eyes? NO. The elder SAID to John. OK, so what does our decrepit disciple hear? He hears this:


“Quit yer whimperin--look [a hint, ok?] the Lion of the tribe of Judah…” etc. (Re 5:5).


That’s what the elder SAID to him. EARS! That’s EARS! What happens next?


“I SAW [eyes!] between the throne an’ the elders--a lamb, standing as if slain” (Re 5:6).


OK so what gives? Are we talkin’ lion or lamb? Quite a difference, isn’t it. They couldn’t possibly be the same thing, could they? Of COURSE they are.


And what has this to do with the 144,000? Well, John does this weird thing: there is what he hears, and there is what he sees. It’s like ears…and eyes. Take for example what happens in Re 7:4. What do we read?


“I heard the number of those who were sealed…” (Re 7:4 ). What’s that? EARS! That’s EARS! John HEARD it. What happens next?


“Next, I look--and lo and behold! A great multitude that no one could count!” He LOOKED! Get it? What’s that? EYES! That’s EYES!


Here’s the thing. John does this weird thing. He uses the sense of hearing to tell us about something from ONE perspective. THEN, he describes it from ANOTHER perspective USING THE SENSE OF SIGHT. Hearing to seeing, hearing to seeing.


Just as the lion is the lamb, the 144,000 is the innumerable multitude. Hearing links the lion of Judah to the 144,000. Seeing links the slain [Passover] Lamb to great multitude.


The 144,000? Note that the first tribe is Judah. The lion leads Judah, and Judah leads the tribes. Virginity simply makes the point that they are ritually clean--which was required of soldiers going into battle. So the 144,000 are a military census of those under the lamb.


You might think that this is how God’s kingdom comes. Yes, you might think that. But you’d be wrong. The central image of the Revelation is not the conquering lion of Judah, but the Passover lamb that was slain. Just as what John HEARD (“the lion of the tribe of Judah is able…”) is connected to the 144,000, whose number John ALSO HEARD, so the Passover lamb that John SAW is related to the innumerable multitude, that John ALSO SAW. For they “stood before the throne and before the lamb.”


Just as the HEARING of the Lion turns IMMEDIATELY to the Lamb, SO HEARING the number (144,000) turns IMMEDIATELY to the innumerable multitude.


By employing his weird HEARING and SEEING thing consistently, John shows that his use of this device is intentional. Therefore it is a key to understanding meaning.


Next, notice that this great course of praise is sung NOT by the 144,000; nor is it directed TO the Lion. These praises are sung by the innumerable TO the lamb. They are cited NOT for great deeds of valor in the lamb’s conquest. They are cited for having “washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (Re 7:14).


In the Revelation, God’s victorious reign comes NOT by the conquering war of the lion, but by the sacrifice of the Passover lamb. And WE are identified WITH the lamb IN his suffering. Therefore, “these are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (Re 7:14).


Blessings!
Covenant Heart

 

[dcyates]

Are these your own words or are you quoting something to us? Why would John go to length to list just who these 144K are if he didn't mean what he wrote. This is about the simplest consept in the whole book of Revelation to discover the true meaning of. If you went to the store and saw a box that said 144k grapes would you be upset if you got it home and found corn flakes in it? And only 50 of them? So if you expect the box at the store to represent what is contained in it, why is it unreasonable to expect the words of the book of Revelation to mean what they actually mean? Is that unreasonable? What other passages will we seek to make mean something else? Shall we redefine what eternal life means? Do you see what I am saying? Do words mean something or are they redefined as we see fit?

Revelation has been composed in that particular type of literary genre that has come to be called apocalyptic. As such it is highly symbolic in its language. For example, do we honestly believe that Jesus is literally "a Lamb that appeared to be slaughtered" and who has "seven horns and seven eyes"? We're then told that these eyes are "the sevenfold Spirit of God sent out into all the earth" (Rev 5.6). So is there "one Spirit" as Paul tells us in Ephesians 4.4? Or is there seven as we're seemingly told here? Is Jesus really this horribly mutated lamb? Is he really a lamb at all? Or are we perhaps to look at these images presented in Revelation as being more symbolic than literal?
Whenever we want to properly interpret anything we have to establish the form and function in which it is coming to us. We don't read poetry the same way we read a newspaper article. When I read William Blake's "Tyger, tyger, burning bright, in the forests of the night," I don't think he's referring to large feral creatures spontaneously combusting during their nocturnal wanderings through deep, dark jungle forests. I don't even really have to think about it. I readily know poetry when I see it, so long as it's in English and the poet and I generally share the same culture. Such is not the case with the book of Revelation. We need to better familiarize ourselves with this particular literary genre if we wish to accurately understand it. Otherwise we'll make mistakes--often egregiously so. As Bible scholar Luke Timothy Johnson has noted, "Few writings in all of literature have been so obsessively read with such generally disastrous results as the book of Revelation."

 

[jaxxman]

You see, these jews are are not preachers but torah true jews who were followers of the assianated elijah the prophet.

they are actual warriors who will fulfill the commandments of God. and fight the antimessiah forces.if you read isaiah 13:3 the 144k are the sanctified ones and the nephillim are the mighty ones.

They are virgin becuase God does not want them to leave widows and be ritually pure.

I have long felt that I might be one of them. Not sure. hope not becuase the end times are a very long ways off i do not want to die or spend an eternity not knowing a wife in that way.

 

[Covenant Heart]

Slam Dunk, Dcyates!

Form informs meaning.

Blessings!
Covenant Heart

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Such is not the case with the book of Revelation. We need to better familiarize ourselves with this particular literary genre if we wish to accurately understand it. Otherwise we'll make mistakes--often egregiously so. As Bible scholar Luke Timothy Johnson has noted, "Few writings in all of literature have been so obsessively read with such generally disastrous results as the book of Revelation."

L. Johnson sounds a lot like this Scholar Commentator at the link below. I haven't had a chance to read much on his 65 part series on Revelation as I am reading through the 33 part series he has on the ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, including several chapterts just on the mysterious Melchizedek of the OT and Book of Hebrews.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev1.htm

The mark of the beast. Armageddon. The Four Horsemen. The false prophet. Babylon the great. Falling stars, stinging locusts, and giant hailstones. The seven last plagues. The bottomless pit. The lake of fire. These images of terror and catastrophe from the book of Revelation have greatly influenced the thinking of millions of Christians through the ages. Even the secular press uses images such as "Armageddon" and "four horsemen of the Apocalypse" to describe calamities in our world. Despite 1900 years of fascination with the book of Revelation, John’s letter to the seven Churches of Asia continues to be misunderstood, badly misinterpreted, "and Horribly Translated"!

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing! and Measure Ye! the Sanctuary/Naos? of God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it 2 And the Court [#833], the one without[ exqen] the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] be you Casting- Out! [#1544 ekbale ] Out-side [#1854 exw] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because it/she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

Matthew 8:12 "But the sons [#5207] of the kingdom [#932] shall be being cast out [#1544 ekblhqhsontai] into outer [#1857] darkness.

 

[Jerrysch]

Revelation has been composed in that particular type of literary genre that has come to be called apocalyptic. As such it is highly symbolic in its language. "

This is all well and good, but the text itself indicates who these 144K are, there is no symbolism employed here. Granted there are many symbols in this book, yet there are many literal statements as well. For instance;

1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God R1 gave Him to show R2 to His bond-servants, the R3 things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated F1 it by R4 His angel to His bond-servant John, R5 2 who testified to the R6 word of God and to the R7 testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

Here there are no symblos at all, But

1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven R47 golden lampstands; 13 and in R48 the middle of the lampstands I saw one like R49 a F10 son of man, clothed R50 in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded R51 across His chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair R52 were white like white wool, like snow; and His R53 eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet R54 were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice R55 was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven R56 stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp R57 two-edged sword; and His face R58 was like the R59 sun shining F11 in its strength. 17 When I saw Him, I fell R60 at His feet like a dead man. And He placed R61 His right hand on me, saying, "Do R62 not be afraid; I R63 am the first and the last, 18 and the living R64 One; and I was R65 F12 dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the R66 keys of death and of Hades. 19 "Therefore write R67 the R68 things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after R69 these things. 20 "As for the mystery R70 of the seven R71 stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven R72 golden lampstands: the seven R71 stars are the angels of the R73 seven churches, and the seven lampstands R74 are the seven churches.

Much of the imagry is defined somewhere else in the text of Rev itself. But getting back to the 144K thier identity is given right in the description of them. To understand the text, one shouldn't make it any harder than it is, and allow it to be as literal as one can.

 

[Jerrysch]

For example, do we honestly believe that Jesus is literally "a Lamb that appeared to be slaughtered" and who has "seven horns and seven eyes"? We're then told that these eyes are "the sevenfold Spirit of God sent out into all the earth" (Rev 5.6). So is there "one Spirit" as Paul tells us in Ephesians 4.4? Or is there seven as we're seemingly told here? Is Jesus really this horribly mutated lamb? Is he really a lamb at all? Or are we perhaps to look at these images presented in Revelation as being more symbolic than literal?

We need to walk through each and every one of these and determine if they are literal or figurative, one must never assume that everythion in the book of Revelation is symbolic or you are left with nothing at all. And when one finds something which is a symbol, one must use the Scripture to determine what that symblo means, for example let's look at:

Rev 12:1 A great sign R535 appeared in R536 heaven: a R537 woman clothed R538 with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she cried R539 out, being in labor and in pain to give birth. ​

Who is the woman and why do you say so? Let's discuss this.

 

[Jerrysch]

You see, these jews are are not preachers but torah true jews who were followers of the assianated elijah the prophet.

they are actual warriors who will fulfill the commandments of God. and fight the antimessiah forces.if you read isaiah 13:3 the 144k are the sanctified ones and the nephillim are the mighty ones.

They are virgin becuase God does not want them to leave widows and be ritually pure.

I have long felt that I might be one of them. Not sure. hope not becuase the end times are a very long ways off i do not want to die or spend an eternity not knowing a wife in that way.

Upon what do you base your statements?

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[freemansw]

The scripture is literal; the 144,000 are Jews from the tribes of Israel. And no where in the Bible does it say they will be preachers, that is pure speculation. And don't listen to those who say the book of Revelation is purely symbolic. The fact is, when ever sybolism is used in the book of Revelation, the symbolism is always explained., If it is not, then it is to be taken literally, that includes the seven Spirits of God.

If God wants to split himself up into a billion Spirits, that is his prerogative. You people may be arrogant enough to put God in a box, but not me.

 

[JoelParks]

um. and you have to be blind NOT to see the overwhelming pattern of 7's in the book of Revelation alone. (calm down the attitude, eh? you win more flies with honey: not vinegar)

as for me, I think it may be symbolic and literal all at the same time. I believe John may have seen 'seven spirits of God' in the spirit-realm.... yet it was also symbolic as well.

 

[Covenant Heart]

Heralding That Their Authors...


have read not one, single text on hermeneutics or on apocalyptic. As I have said time and again, we seriously need to learn to read this book theologically.

“the text itself indicates who these 144K are, there is no symbolism employed here.”

No symbolism? Why exactly are we supposed to believe that?

And we read:
“We need to walk through each and every one of these and determine if they are literal or figurative, one must never assume that everythion in the book of Revelation is symbolic or you are left with nothing at all.”

By what hermeneutic are we to determine which symbols are and are not symbolic? Who is to say that John’s vision report cannot create a symbolic world in order to refurbish the Christian imaginative response to the world in light of God’s kingdom purposes? As for myself, I’ve never met anyone who sees this vision report in entirely symbolic terms. But even where symbolism is employed, how does that empty the text of meaning? If the use of symbolic images leaves us with nothing, why would Biblical writers use them at all?

Wouldn’t it make more sense to read the book in order to understand John’s theological and prophetic purpose in bringing together many strands of writing as he does?

Then we read that...
If God wants to split himself up into a billion Spirits, that is his prerogative. You people may be arrogant enough to put God in a box, but not me.

The attitudinal question aside (i.e. “you may be arrogant…”), that statement runs counter to the churchly confession of the Holy Trinity. The Athanasian Creed may put it best:

“Now the catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance.”

Since the substance cannot be divided, we cannot say that it is God’s prerogative to “split himself up into a billion Spirits.” That may fit the religions of animism or polytheism, but it most assuredly is not Christian doctrine.

Blessings!
Covenant Heart

 

[Covenant Heart]

um. and you have to be blind NOT to see the overwhelming pattern of 7's in the book of Revelation alone. (calm down the attitude, eh? you win more flies with honey: not vinegar)

as for me, I think it may be symbolic and literal all at the same time. I believe John may have seen 'seven spirits of God' in the spirit-realm.... yet it was also symbolic as well.

Well Done, Joel Parks!

John's readers understood ALL of his images. All of them--Biblical and otherwise--were in the living memory of the people. That is the strength of the preterist position. On the other hand, John's purpose is not bound to that time. That is the weakness of the preterist view.

As the Holy Spirit carried him along, John brought together many strains of Biblical witness and human understanding to frame this capstone, canonical writing that would be applicable to all of God's people in every time and place. That is the strength of the so-called "ideal" interpretation of the book of Revelation.

John gives us less than a specific roadmap to the future, in order that he may give us more. The fullness of this book is seen in that the Revelation can be read from so very many different perspectives. That is exactly what John does in the opening letters to the seven churches.

It is clear that John had very good information on those seven, Asiatic churches. Either he visited all of them (perhaps repeatedly), or else someone from each of those churches reported directly to him. That is the kind of knowledge with which John writes.

Now here is the thing. These seven letters function as individualized prefaces to the whole book. The book as a whole is relevant to all the churches. But based on very intimate knowledge of each church, John prepares seven individualized introductions to that book--one for each church. This is somewhat similar to the "round robin" Christmas newsletter that people write. There is the basic letter. But based on the point at which people knew us, we include remarks of special significance.

John is tells each church, "you need to watch for this and for this as you read this." Revelation is a book of profound theological reflection. And John intends that each church would wrestle with the question of how to apply John's circular letter in their local context.

This makes no sense if John is merely documents events on a futuristic roadmap. Nor would that be applicable in the churches to which John wrote. That these things would soon take place indicates that his writing IS applicable. At the same time the theme of delay (how long, O Lord) is just as important as the nearness of the day in the Revelation.

Blessings!
Covenant Heart

 

[lecoop]

First off the 144K in Rev 7 are not martyers, they ar however those of ethnic Israel that have been chosen for service to God the great croud which comes later in the same chapter are those whom have come to faith in Messiah by way of thier preaching ministry.

Truthfully, you have to ad lib to even make this statement, for the word of God does not tell us this, or even hint at it. In fact, it seems that the great crowd is not AT ALL related to the 144,000. John is just giving us two things that absolutely MUST take place before the 7th seal kicks off the 70th week of Daniel and the Day of the Lord. Reading ahead, we see the purpose that God planned for these: they are His "firstfruits" of the Jews, meaning that there will be more coming later.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Your post is niether helpful nor is it in good taste.

What an amazing imagination Prophet boy has! I agree with you, Jerrysch!

Coop

 

[lecoop]

This kind of says it isn't about any certain ethnic group
"
It seems clear that the vision in Revelation 7 has the church in view, not the ancient nation of Israel. The emphasis in the New Testament is on the spiritual people of God or his church. It is not interested in racial distinctions (Galatians 3:28). Paul says that the heir of Abraham is the person who is in Christ (Galatians 3:29). He is the father of all who believe (Romans 4:11).
The believer in Christ is the true Jew (Romans 2:29). Peter speaks of the church as a holy nation and chosen people (1 Peter 2:9). Paul said of the church: "It is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus" (Philippians 3:3) These are phrases and ideas taken from the Old Testament and applied to the New Testament church. The church is the extension of national Israel, or better, its replacement, elevated to a spiritual plane. "

How can someone read white and think it means black? What reading level do you have? What "seems clear" is just what it says: 12,000 from each of 12 tribes. How could John have written it any clearer?

This kind of exegesis is almost as bad as reading about John being called to heaven, and saying it is the rapture. It is almost as bad as reading about the white horse, and claiming it to be the antichrist. It is almost as bad as reading "after this" and claiming it to mean, "after the church age."

Hey, folks, lets read it as it is written, and just believe it!

Coop