Who are the 144,000?

[lecoop]

Are these your own words or are you quoting something to us? Why would John go to length to list just who these 144K are if he didn't mean what he wrote. This is about the simplest consept in the whole book of Revelation to discover the true meaning of. If you went to the store and saw a box that said 144k grapes would you be upset if you got it home and found corn flakes in it? And only 50 of them? So if you expect the box at the store to represent what is contained in it, why is it unreasonable to expect the words of the book of Revelation to mean what they actually mean? Is that unreasonable? What other passages will we seek to make mean something else? Shall we redefine what eternal life means? Do you see what I am saying? Do words mean something or are they redefined as we see fit?

ROFL He he he! Very good, Jerrysch!

Coop

 

[lecoop]

The 144K are not the only ones who get saved, they are those who God has chosen out of ethnic Israel who go out and evangulize the world during the tribulation. Many come to salvation by way of thier ministry.

Unless God spoke to you personally and told you this, it is not what is written. You are ad libbing. There is not one word, or even one hint that these 144,000 will evangelize. Not even one.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

There is what he hears...

And there is what he sees.

...


Just as the lion is the lamb, the 144,000 is the innumerable multitude. Hearing links the lion of Judah to the 144,000. Seeing links the slain [Passover] Lamb to great multitude.

...

Blessings!
Covenant Heart

NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Two totally separate things, not related at all, except that John sees one, and then sees the other, separated by "After this," which John uses as a transitional phrase to switch subjects.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

You see, these jews are are not preachers but torah true jews who were followers of the assianated elijah the prophet.

they are actual warriors who will fulfill the commandments of God. and fight the antimessiah forces.if you read isaiah 13:3 the 144k are the sanctified ones and the nephillim are the mighty ones.

They are virgin becuase God does not want them to leave widows and be ritually pure.

I have long felt that I might be one of them. Not sure. hope not becuase the end times are a very long ways off i do not want to die or spend an eternity not knowing a wife in that way.

Great imagination, and ad libbing! But please, let's just stick to what is written? We don't need human imagination here.

Coop

 

[dcyates]

This is all well and good, but the text itself indicates who these 144K are, there is no symbolism employed here. Granted there are many symbols in this book, yet there are many literal statements as well. For instance;

1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God R1 gave Him to show R2 to His bond-servants, the R3 things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated F1 it by R4 His angel to His bond-servant John, R5 2 who testified to the R6 word of God and to the R7 testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

The concept of reading something 'literally', according to its original Medieval etymology means 'to read a text in the manner in which it is intended'. In other words, if one reads a poem as poetry, then they are reading it literally. If one reads satirical writing as satire, then they are reading it literally. So in actuality, if we read the Revelation as apocalyptic literature--with its inherent symbolism and use of metaphor--it's, in that sense, all literal.

Here there are no symblos at all, But

1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven R47 golden lampstands; 13 and in R48 the middle of the lampstands I saw one like R49 a F10 son of man, clothed R50 in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded R51 across His chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair R52 were white like white wool, like snow; and His R53 eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet R54 were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice R55 was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven R56 stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp R57 two-edged sword; and His face R58 was like the R59 sun shining F11 in its strength. 17 When I saw Him, I fell R60 at His feet like a dead man. And He placed R61 His right hand on me, saying, "Do R62 not be afraid; I R63 am the first and the last, 18 and the living R64 One; and I was R65 F12 dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the R66 keys of death and of Hades. 19 "Therefore write R67 the R68 things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after R69 these things. 20 "As for the mystery R70 of the seven R71 stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven R72 golden lampstands: the seven R71 stars are the angels of the R73 seven churches, and the seven lampstands R74 are the seven churches.

Much of the imagry is defined somewhere else in the text of Rev itself. But getting back to the 144K thier identity is given right in the description of them. To understand the text, one shouldn't make it any harder than it is, and allow it to be as literal as one can.

Yes, but Jerrysch, interpreting the '144,000' literally is what makes it harder than it needs to be. In point of fact, this simply cannot be taken literally. Let's not forget that ten of those twelve tribes of Israel were irrevocably lost after the northern kingdom's defeat to the Assyrians in 722 BC. Assyrian policy was to displace conquered peoples by deporting them throughout their empire and to thus force them to intermarry with other defeated peoples, in order to dilute--and therefore dispel--any potentially lingering nationalistic fervour. Hence, in the strictest sense there no longer existed any such entity as the 'Twelve Tribes of Israel'.

 

[Jerrysch]

The scripture is literal; the 144,000 are Jews from the tribes of Israel. And no where in the Bible does it say they will be preachers, that is pure speculation. And don't listen to those who say the book of Revelation is purely symbolic. The fact is, when ever sybolism is used in the book of Revelation, the symbolism is always explained., If it is not, then it is to be taken literally, that includes the seven Spirits of God.

If God wants to split himself up into a billion Spirits, that is his prerogative. You people may be arrogant enough to put God in a box, but not me.

Don't you consider that when God "sent" Scripture He limited Himself?

 

[Jerrysch]

Truthfully, you have to ad lib to even make this statement, for the word of God does not tell us this, or even hint at it. In fact, it seems that the great crowd is not AT ALL related to the 144,000. John is just giving us two things that absolutely MUST take place before the 7th seal kicks off the 70th week of Daniel and the Day of the Lord. Reading ahead, we see the purpose that God planned for these: they are His "firstfruits" of the Jews, meaning that there will be more coming later.

Coop

I agree, in fact all Israel will be saved, according to Paul (not all who ever lived, but them who are alive).

 

[Jerrysch]

Unless God spoke to you personally and told you this, it is not what is written. You are ad libbing. There is not one word, or even one hint that these 144,000 will evangelize. Not even one.

Coop

Well, what do you think they are doing? Why do you think they were selected? How is all Israel to be saved if not through these? They do infact pick up the task in that the church is now absent. There are many OT passages which refer to this.

 

[lecoop]

Well, what do you think they are doing? Why do you think they were selected? How is all Israel to be saved if not through these? They do infact pick up the task in that the church is now absent. There are many OT passages which refer to this.

First we have to decide what Paul meant by "all Israel" because we see something that seems different elsewhere. For instance, an old testament prophecy says only 1/3 will survive, and be purified. Revelation seems to agree with the 1/3. So perhaps "all Israel" means only the believing Israel, since they would be true Israel. In other words, God might not have meant every human born of a Jewish mother as all Israel.

When will Israel turn to God? Only when they have lost all hope of survival, and are FORCED to cry out to God, at the end of the 7 year period. The 144,000 are raptured to heaven at the midpoint of the week, so it is very unlikely that they will have anything to do with Israel's salvation. It may be possible that they preach - all I am saying is that God's word does not tell us this.

Please, if you have a proof scripture, by all means show it!

Coop

 

[brother daniel]

Let's not forget that ten of those twelve tribes of Israel were irrevocably lost after the northern kingdom's defeat to the Assyrians in 722 BC.

Beloved,
lets not forget
Jam 1:1¶James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

in the strictest sense there no longer existed any such entity as the 'Twelve Tribes of Israel'.

In the strictist sense Israel is the church that came out of Egypt with Moses.

Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Jam 5:10Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

First we have to decide what Paul meant by "all Israel"

All Israel is the brethren James is speaking to. It includes you and I who have been adopted by Christ.

Jam 1:2¶My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

When will Israel turn to God?

Israel had all ready turned to Christ in the time of James.

The 144,000 are raptured to heaven at the midpoint of the week, so it is very unlikely that they will have anything to do with Israel's salvation.

There is no mention in scripture of the 144,000 being raptured. That is your personal interpetation
Consider first this,

Rev 6:9¶And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


Rev 6:11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.


Rev 7:3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


Rev 14:4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Rev 14:5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.


Rev 7:9
¶After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Since the 144,000 followed the Lamb whethersoever he goeth that means they are slain as he was. There is no scriptual evidence the are raptured.

It may be possible that they preach - all I am saying is that God's word does not tell us this.

Please, if you have a proof scripture, by all means show it!

Coop

Beloved ,
I hope this adds to your understanding.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[lecoop]

[/color][/b]

Beloved,
lets not forget
Jam 1:1¶James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.




In the strictist sense Israel is the church that came out of Egypt with Moses.

Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Jam 5:10Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.



All Israel is the brethren James is speaking to. It includes you and I who have been adopted by Christ.

Jam 1:2¶My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;




Israel had all ready turned to Christ in the time of James.


There is no mention in scripture of the 144,000 being raptured. That is your personal interpetation
Consider first this,
...

Since the 144,000 followed the Lamb whethersoever he goeth that means they are slain as he was. There is no scriptual evidence the are raptured.



Beloved ,
I hope this adds to your understanding.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

First we saw that they were sealed for their protection during the time of the trumpets (the first half of the 70th week) This is definitely speaking of "on earth." This is the next time John sees them:

Rev 14

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.


First we see Jesus (a Lamb) standing on Mt. Sion, and with Him are the 144,000. Where are they? Jesus has not yet returned to earth, so they must be in heaven. (Just human reasoning).

But let's go on: John hears a voice from heaven. He hears the voice of harpers in heaven. Then John says they sung a song "before the throne." Also before the 4 beasts and before the 24 elders, so definitely in heaven. (Note, no mention of planet earth at all.) Next John says that they were "redeemed from the earth." This should be conclusive proof that these 144,000 are no longer on earth, but are in heaven.

Now, how did they get to heaven? Did they die? Were they put to death by the beast? Were they martyred? There is no one word or hint of such a thing: in fact, there is strong evidence not: in the first place, they were sealed for their protection! Was the "sealing" faulty? No, the answer is, they were not killed; they were raptured!

Next John says, "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth." Now, where are they? They are in heaven, seen there by John at the midpoint of the 70th week. Jesus has not yet got onto the white horse to return to earth. Therefore, Jesus is still in heaven at this time. Therefore, they are "follow[ing] the Lamb" in heaven, not on earth! All this is saying, is that they follow Jesus where ever He goes in heaven!

It would be totally silly to think that they followed Jesus "to the cross," for that event took place about 2000 years before these 144,000 were even born! No, no, no! They are following Jesus around in heaven, and they will return to earth with Him also.

Finally, why should they being "raptured" be such an impossibility? Jesus was "raptured." Elijah and Enoch was "raptured." The two witnesses will be "raptured." And finally, the church will be raptured. So why not these 144,000? It is the correct reading of this text.
Coop

 

[brother daniel]

First we saw that they were sealed for their protection during the time of the trumpets (the first half of the 70th week) This is definitely speaking of "on earth." This is the next time John sees them:

Rev 14

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

This is them,
Jam 1:1¶James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

First we see Jesus (a Lamb) standing on Mt. Sion, and with Him are the 144,000. Where are they? Jesus has not yet returned to earth, so they must be in heaven. (Just human reasoning).

Mount Zion is the Kingdom of God,
Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven

But let's go on: John hears a voice from heaven. He hears the voice of harpers in heaven. Then John says they sung a song "before the throne." Also before the 4 beasts and before the 24 elders, so definitely in heaven. (Note, no mention of planet earth at all.)

This is after the first resurrection
.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Next John says that they were "redeemed from the earth." This should be conclusive proof that these 144,000 are no longer on earth, but are in heaven.

yes after the first resurrection

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Now, how did they get to heaven? Did they die? Were they put to death by the beast? Were they martyred? There is no one word or hint of such a thing: in fact, there is strong evidence not: in the first place, they were sealed for their protection! Was the "sealing" faulty? No, the answer is, they were not killed; they were raptured!

I cant agree with your answer,

Their sealing was not faulty they were kept from the temptation to forsake Christ during the great tribulation.

Next John says, "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth." Now, where are they?
{/quote]

Jesus said follow me and I will make you fishers of men.
They do it.

They are in heaven, seen there by John at the midpoint of the 70th week. Jesus has not yet got onto the white horse to return to earth. Therefore, Jesus is still in heaven at this time. Therefore, they are "follow[ing] the Lamb" in heaven, not on earth! All this is saying, is that they follow Jesus where ever He goes in heaven!

The kingdom of Heaven is at hand. enter in.

It would be totally silly to think that they followed Jesus "to the cross," for that event took place about 2000 years before these 144,000 were even born!.

Totaly silly? We today are called to follow him to the cross and expect to be treated as he was.

No, no, no! They are following Jesus around in heaven, and they will return to earth with Him also.

Thats silly

Finally, why should they being "raptured" be such an impossibility? Jesus was "raptured." Elijah and Enoch was "raptured." The two witnesses will be "raptured." And finally, the church will be raptured. So why not these 144,000? It is the correct reading of this text.

You are off dear brother, but as long as you are working out your own salvation with fear and trembling then you will be raptured after the great tribulation with the rest of Gods servants who have died in Christ.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[NumberOneSon]

The concept of reading something 'literally', according to its original Medieval etymology means 'to read a text in the manner in which it is intended'. In other words, if one reads a poem as poetry, then they are reading it literally. If one reads satirical writing as satire, then they are reading it literally. So in actuality, if we read the Revelation as apocalyptic literature--with its inherent symbolism and use of metaphor--it's, in that sense, all literal..

Great point.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[Jerrysch]

Yes, but Jerrysch, interpreting the '144,000' literally is what makes it harder than it needs to be. In point of fact, this simply cannot be taken literally. Let's not forget that ten of those twelve tribes of Israel were irrevocably lost after the northern kingdom's defeat to the Assyrians in 722 BC. Assyrian policy was to displace conquered peoples by deporting them throughout their empire and to thus force them to intermarry with other defeated peoples, in order to dilute--and therefore dispel--any potentially lingering nationalistic fervour. Hence, in the strictest sense there no longer existed any such entity as the 'Twelve Tribes of Israel'.

Well, I suspect that God can discover just who is who, if we were to import a differennt meaning to these 144k we would have to import that meaning from some other source than the Scriptures for in fact they clearly indicate that these 144k are of ethnic Israel. How will they be discovered? I don't know, yet I am willing to let the Scriptures speak for themselves. There is just no good reason not to take this statement as anything other than a literal statement.

 

[Jerrysch]

First we have to decide what Paul meant by "all Israel" because we see something that seems different elsewhere. For instance, an old testament prophecy says only 1/3 will survive, and be purified. Revelation seems to agree with the 1/3. So perhaps "all Israel" means only the believing Israel, since they would be true Israel. In other words, God might not have meant every human born of a Jewish mother as all Israel.

Coop

Indeed 1/3 will survive the Great Tribulation, and these will be believers in Messiah. They will constitute "all Israel" which Paul refered to. All who were alive.

 

[Jerrysch]

First we have to decide what Paul meant by "all Israel" because we see something that seems different elsewhere. For instance, an old testament prophecy says only 1/3 will survive, and be purified. Revelation seems to agree with the 1/3. So perhaps "all Israel" means only the believing Israel, since they would be true Israel. In other words, God might not have meant every human born of a Jewish mother as all Israel.


Coop

Indeed 2/3 will die and the other 1/3 will be redeemed in Messiah. They will mourn for the One They Pierced
this is to be found in Zechariah `12 & 13. It will be at this time that sin will not be found in them.

 

[Covenant Heart]

NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Two totally separate things, not related at all, except that John sees one, and then sees the other, separated by "After this," which John uses as a transitional phrase to switch subjects.

Coop

That's Not Much Of A Reply...

...to John's use of this literary device.

Why can't we admit that Revelation inseparably intertwines form and meaning? Perhaps the answer is the problem.

Blessings!
Covenant Heart

 

[wmc1982]

well I know I one of them

 

[newbaby1]

well I know I one of them

Details . . . ! Don't leave us hanging there!