Who’s choice is it?

orthedoxy said:

God chose to bring the gospel to us we responded, he saved us because we chose him.

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So you're saved because of your works? So much for grace.

Is it your intention to profess that the Lord's intention was not our individual salvation but rather just that He desired that we be exposed to His counsel and make an "educated" choice for which He could rightly reward us?

orthedoxy said:

God chose to bring the gospel to us we responded, he saved us because we chose him.

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Hmm...

What this looks like you are saying is that God is placed into our debt by our autonomous choice, and He repays that debt by saving us. :o

So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Reformationist said:

So you're saved because of your works? So much for grace.

Is it your intention to profess that the Lord's intention was not our individual salvation but rather just that He desired that we be exposed to His counsel and make an "educated" choice for which He could rightly reward us?

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were you saved before you believed? if believing is working your way to heaven then jesus taught that mark 16:16.

Reformationist said:

So you're saved because of your works? So much for grace.

Is it your intention to profess that the Lord's intention was not our individual salvation but rather just that He desired that we be exposed to His counsel and make an "educated" choice for which He could rightly reward us?

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He just doesn't force us to believe or didn't preprogram us to believe. Free choices are not free unless you can do otherwise. If the bible says if you confess with your mouth you will be saved I guess you have to make an educated choice.
Josh 24:15 says choose, no mention of God enabling them so why can I say the same thing I choose God?

Dr Dex said:

Hmm...

What this looks like you are saying is that God is placed into our debt by our autonomous choice, and He repays that debt by saving us. :o

So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

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Why can't it mean God sends a person to preach and open our eyes to the truth? Then we can respond or reject.
Can a preprogrammed robot love? If it can then we can marry a robot we can program perfect love How are you any different then a preprogrammed robot?

How do you know you are one of the remnant is it because you are better then most people or because your work of faith?
Aren't you working so you can have assurance of salvation?
How much can you sin before you can loose the assurance?
Are you relying on the burning feeling in your bosom?
can we boast about our assurance?

Oddly enough, this same topic came up in the Liberal Theology forum about a week ago, and I think the answer I gave there is worth repeating. It's in the form of an anonymous hymn from 1878:

I sought the Lord, and afterward I knew
he moved my soul to seek him, seeking me;
it was not I that found, O Savior true;
no, I was found of thee.

Thou didst reach forth thy hand and mine enfold;
I walked and sank not on the storm-vexed sea;
'twas not so much that I on thee took hold,
as thou, dear Lord, on me.

I find, I walk, I love, but oh, the whole
of love is but my answer, Lord, to thee;
for thou wert long beforehand with my soul,
always thou lovedst me.

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orthedoxy said:

were you saved before you believed?

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Well, this is quite a bit more involved of a question than you probably think. First off, salvation is a progressive occurance as well as an eternally established decree. As a matter of form I would generally tell you that I am sure that Scripture teaches that belief is the product of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. Spiritually dead people, which is the state of all people prior God's monergistic work of regeneration, are incapable of faith in the Lord. However, I would be remiss if I failed to acknowledge that salvation is progressive as well as eternally ordained. We are instantly and unequivocably eternally saved when the Holy Spirit indwells us, thereby bringing us back to life. This is called regeneration. We, by His continued work, are irresistably sanctified and, thus, are being saved from our inherent sinfulness by the work of God in our daily lives. He creates in us a desire to obey Him and, by His grace, we become more successful as we mature in our walk with Him. And, we are finally saved when we are glorified in Heaven with our Father, being fully and finally released from all bonds that our fallen nature holds upon us.

So, in answer to your question, as I believe you meant it, I would have to say that we believe because we are saved, not sot that we can be saved. To profess otherwise, unless you account for the intricacies of salvation, is to place God in your debt for your obedience and fealty.

if believing is working your way to heaven then jesus taught that mark 16:16.

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Prooftexting is not progressive to a proper understanding of the Lord's Council. I am in no way saying that believing isn't necessary for salvation. My contention, which is something totally different from the point you seem to be arguing against, is that believing is the result of God's monergistic, efficacious work of regeneration. Orthedoxy, WHY do some believe and some do not? Are they smarter? Are they more holy? Did they recognize a good deal when they saw one because they were more astute? Were they more spiritually open to the power of God? Or, did God Himself open their hearts and incline them to His Will in such an irresistable way that the only Truth their hearts would recognize was the Truth of His Word? Is it impossible to think that it was His divine providence of regenerative grace that invariably leads to our regeneration rather than the resultant acceptance of the truth our hearts have already embraced? IOW, do we believe because He ensured we would believe or do we believe because we were more intelligent/willing/spiritual than those that don't? Think long and hard where you wish to place the credit for your salvation. Even if you acknowledge our inability to fully overcome God's wrath against fallen mankind you would still be attributing our salvation, at least partially, to the choice we make. In doing so you make salvation a cooperative effort between God and yourself and boast in your own acquiesence.

God bless

orthedoxy said:

He just doesn't force us to believe

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Never said He did...

or didn't preprogram us to believe.

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Then why do you believe? Are you just smarter than those who don't? Less prideful? Where does your boast lie, with God's sovereign purpose with you as the recipient of His sovereign grace, or with yourself, because you're more "attuned" to the will of God?

Free choices are not free unless you can do otherwise.

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Who says your choice to submit to God isn't free? It's ironic that free will advocates, like yourself, are so adamant about your choice to embrace God being "free" that you totally ignore Scripture which describes carnal man as a slave to his sinful nature. You have failed to make notice of a vital difference in the nature of man's choices. Unregenerate (carnal) man is naturally free to choose whatsoever is in his power to choose, including obeying God's Law. Unregenerate man is not, however, morally free to acknowledge the Lordship of God and seek Him by faith. While carnal man may have the inherent ability to choose to live a life of obedience to God, his desire to do so was completely lost in the Fall. Man's desire after the Fall was to rebel against the Almighty. They were so caught up in the sinfulness of their hearts that the idea of freedom is illogical at best. God makes us free when He sets our hearts free. Only when He regenerates us are we morally capable of faithfully obeying Him. Now, if regenerating us were all He did every thought of our heart would continue to be evil; thankfully that is not all He does. He also indwells us and constantly works in us to do His Will.

If the bible says if you confess with your mouth you will be saved I guess you have to make an educated choice.

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Are you saying that you are saved because you made an educated choice? If not, why were you saved?

Josh 24:15 says choose, no mention of God enabling them so why can I say the same thing I choose God?

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This is one of the most improperly understood verses in the Bible. Once again, all prooftexting will get you is an incorrect understanding of the fullness of God's revealed will. First off, Joshua was speaking to the children of Israel. These were people who had been delivered time and time again by the power of God. They could no more deny His authority than they could their own existance. What was the response of many of them? They had embraced the pagan gods of their fathers. Joshua's admonition to them was to remind them of their sinfulness and to encourage them to faithfully serve the Lord their God and only Him.

Once again, let me reiterate that we DO make a choice to serve the Lord. That choice is not an autonomous one though. We who faithfully make that choice are set apart because God's purpose in election is made manifest, not because we make the right choice. We make the right choice because God has given us faith.

Why can't it mean God sends a person to preach and open our eyes to the truth? Then we can respond or reject.

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First off, if your eyes are opened to the Truth then that must mean they were closed to the Truth. If they were closed to the Truth what made one person's eyes open to the Truth and another's remain shut to that same Truth? The thing you fail to realize is that we were not only blind to the Truth, we were deaf as well. Preaching the Truth to one who has not been regenerated is like preaching to a piece of driftwood.

Can a preprogrammed robot love? If it can then we can marry a robot we can program perfect love How are you any different then a preprogrammed robot?

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No. What does this have to do with the discussion? No one is claiming that God made any of us robots. This is just the infantile regurgitation of someone else's misunderstanding of predestination. God does not "force" us to love Him but the Bible is clear that His sheep hear His voice and they follow. Why do they follow? Is it because He forces them to follow? You see, prestination is not rooted in God's omnipotence. It is rooted in His monergistic work of regeneration. We believe because God gives us a heart that believes. Our fallen heart, our heart of stone, is incapable of belief. That's why He gives us a new one. His work of doing so is regeneration. When we are brought back to life we believe, just as surely as Lazarus breathed when the Lord Jesus called him forth from death. Did Lazarus breathe first? Of course not.

How do you know you are one of the remnant is it because you are better then most people or because your work of faith?

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A true, genuine desire for salvation in Christ is, in fact, a mark of election.

Aren't you working so you can have assurance of salvation?

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Of course not. We are children of God now and part of that is living a life in accordance with that Truth. We don't obey so that we will be saved. We obey because we are saved.

How much can you sin before you can loose the assurance?

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Well, if the assurance of our salvation depended on our obedience then no one would be saved. Thankfully, it doesn't. Our salvation is secured in Heaven for us by the power of God:

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

can we boast about our assurance?

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Can you boast about the reason for being saved?

Again I ask, why did you believe when others did not?

Question for y’all

I am just curious to know something and all I would like is answers, no debates, no answering questions with questions. I probably will not respond at all but I would like to know, why is it unacceptable to believe that God chose us first and the most we can ever do on our part is to respond? Why is responding to the prevenient grace that God plants in all our hearts, wrong?

Shelb5 said:

why is it unacceptable to believe that God chose us first and the most we can ever do on our part is to respond?

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Well, I would say that there is nothing wrong with that belief, said with the proper understanding of the efficacy of God's grace and the nature of God. However, knowing your beliefs as I do I would say that the primary reason is that that belief seeks to make the response of the recipient of God's grace the causal agent in our salvation rather than God's grace. IOW, that view purports that salvation is the result of our choice. If that is the case than our salvation ceases be by the grace of God and we share the glory for our salvation.

Of course what makes it truly unacceptable is that it violates the Truth of God's Word.

Why is responding to the prevenient grace that God plants in all our hearts, wrong?

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Once again, you claim that God gives all people the same measure of grace, though Scripture is clear that He reveals Himself to some more fully than to others. Additionally, when claiming that everyone receives the same measure of grace it is completely incongruous to say that some respond differently to the grace than others but the glory for their decision lies with God. If all receive the same measure of grace but that grace produces different results then the credit for the response, and thus our salvation, goes to us for our response, not God for His grace. While you rightly acknowledge that response is impossible without the grace you, unfortunately, don't attribute our response to the efficacy of God's grace. You believe that "prevenient grace" merely enables us, ALL OF US, to respond in faith.

So, I ask you the same question I asked orthedoxy. Why did you respond to that grace while others have freely rejected it?

God bless

Hello reformationist. Did you have a Merry Christmas?

Does the wife choose the husband, or does the husband choose the wife? Does it matter who recognises the other first?

Is Preordination the same as Predestination? does one imply the other?

Does God judge on the basis of works? on the basis of faith? on the basis of something else?

Is there a difference between being called according to the purposes of salvation, and unltimately being a recipient of salvation?

Shelb5 said:

Hello reformationist. Did you have a Merry Christmas?

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I did thank you. And you? Was Santa good to you this year?

Reformationist said:

I did thank you. And you? Was Santa good to you this year?

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You could say that he was.

thinbo said:

Does the wife choose the husband, or does the husband choose the wife?

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I imagine that in most instances it's a mutual choice.

Does it matter who recognises the other first?

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No. What does that have to do with this discussion? Are you parallelling the relationship of a husband and wife to that of God and fallen man?

Is Preordination the same as Predestination? does one imply the other?

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That would depend on the context in which they are used.

Does God judge on the basis of works? on the basis of faith? on the basis of something else?

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Judge what, our worthiness of salvation?

Is there a difference between being called according to the purposes of salvation, and unltimately being a recipient of salvation?

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"The purposes of salvation?" What's that?

God bless

Shelb5 said:

You could say that he was.

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Good to hear that.

Dear Orthedoxy,

I thought you might like this:

"God persuades, He does not compel; for violence is foreign to the divine nature." -- Letter of Diognetus, second chapter

Matrona said:

Dear Orthedoxy,

I thought you might like this:

"God persuades, He does not compel; for violence is foreign to the divine nature." -- Letter of Diognetus, second chapter

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2 Corinthians 5:14,15
For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

We are compelled by God. His compulsion is not by means of violence but rather through His love for us. He gives us life and we, as the living, serve Him.

God bless

Reformationist said:

Well, this is quite a bit more involved of a question than you probably think. First off, salvation is a progressive occurance as well as an eternally established decree. As a matter of form I would generally tell you that I am sure that Scripture teaches that belief is the product of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. Spiritually dead people, which is the state of all people prior God's monergistic work of regeneration, are incapable of faith in the Lord. However, I would be remiss if I failed to acknowledge that salvation is progressive as well as eternally ordained. We are instantly and unequivocably eternally saved when the Holy Spirit indwells us, thereby bringing us back to life. This is called regeneration. We, by His continued work, are irresistably sanctified and, thus, are being saved from our inherent sinfulness by the work of God in our daily lives. He creates in us a desire to obey Him and, by His grace, we become more successful as we mature in our walk with Him. And, we are finally saved when we are glorified in Heaven with our Father, being fully and finally released from all bonds that our fallen nature holds upon us.

So, in answer to your question, as I believe you meant it, I would have to say that we believe because we are saved, not sot that we can be saved. To profess otherwise, unless you account for the intricacies of salvation, is to place God in your debt for your obedience and fealty


Prooftexting is not progressive to a proper understanding of the Lord's Council. I am in no way saying that believing isn't necessary for salvation. My contention, which is something totally different from the point you seem to be arguing against, is that believing is the result of God's monergistic, efficacious work of regeneration. Orthedoxy, WHY do some believe and some do not? Are they smarter? Are they more holy? Did they recognize a good deal when they saw one because they were more astute? Were they more spiritually open to the power of God? Or, did God Himself open their hearts and incline them to His Will in such an irresistable way that the only Truth their hearts would recognize was the Truth of His Word? Is it impossible to think that it was His divine providence of regenerative grace that invariably leads to our regeneration rather than the resultant acceptance of the truth our hearts have already embraced? IOW, do we believe because He ensured we would believe or do we believe because we were more intelligent/willing/spiritual than those that don't? Think long and hard where you wish to place the credit for your salvation. Even if you acknowledge our inability to fully overcome God's wrath against fallen mankind you would still be attributing our salvation, at least partially, to the choice we make. In doing so you make salvation a cooperative effort between God and yourself and boast in your own acquiesence.

God bless

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I think you are confusing things salvation comes after believe
mark 16:16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
act 2:21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
also regeneration hapens after believing
act 2:38-41 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day

orthedoxy said:

I think you are confusing things salvation comes after believe

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Well, you're more than welcome to your own opinion. Although, I would encourage you to seek to understand the nature of fallen man. The Bible is explicit when describing unregenerate man and blatantly says that the carnal mind views God as the enemy and is incapable of belief. It is in this very state that you are contending man makes his eternal decision of faith.

God bless

Reformationist said:

Well, you're more than welcome to your own opinion. Although, I would encourage you to seek to understand the nature of fallen man. The Bible is explicit when describing unregenerate man and blatantly says that the carnal mind views God as the enemy and is incapable of belief. It is in this very state that you are contending man makes his eternal decision of faith.

God bless

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Reformationist,

I do think that salvation comes after belief. But this is no problem to me because God provides my salvation through him himself. He makes it so I can believe and be saved. Without him I cannot believe. Without him making me alive I will be D-E-A-D. Dead. So I have no problem with someone saying that salvation comes after belief as ong as they acknowledge also that the Holy Spirit provides the belief in me also through revealing his wonderful majesty to me. I do not contribute to my salvation. I just accept the gift he gives me which is irresistable.