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Which Type of Dispensational Are You and Why?

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by notreligus, Jan 10, 2017.

  1. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    Then you must admit that the part of the following words of the Lord Jesus about "new tongues" and faith healers are no longer in effect today:

    "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" (Mk.16:17-18).
     
  2. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I have personally seen all these except the new tongues things done in the recent past. And I have had testimonies from reliable sources of people actually speaking in the native languages of people they met, also in the recent past. And here I am not speaking of "unknown tongues," but actually communicating the gospel to people in languages known to the hearers, but unknown to the speakers.

    So in short, all of these things have actually taken place in the last twenty years, either by me or in front of my eyes, or as witnessed to me by reliable witnesses.
     
  3. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    Surely this has been documented?
     
  4. readywriter

    readywriter Newbie

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    Hello there,


    I am an Acts 28 dispensationalist. I suppose I come into the catagory of a 'hyperdispensationalist', for the works of Dr E.W. Bullinger and Mr C. Welch figure largely in my development, and they were given that epithet by critics. I am quite happy to be linked with both these fine men of God, however, I would prefer not to be labelled at all.

    The Lord Jesus Christ, now risen and glorified, is my Saviour, Lord and Head, and that really is all that should matter.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  5. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I was speaking of personal experience. So there is no documentation. And I am most certainly not a charismatic. I am just someone who loves Jesus and reveres the Bible as the word of God.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  6. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    Hi Chris,

    In your opinion what determines the beginning of the present dispensation of the grace of God?

    Thanks!
     
  7. readywriter

    readywriter Newbie

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    @Jerry Shugart

    Hello there,

    Thank you so much for responding to my declaration in reply #44, with a question.

    You ask what determines the beginning of the present dispensation of the grace of God: and I believe what determines it has to be one of necessity and evidence of a change in administration. The departure of Israel as a nation, into a Loammi state at Acts 28, would have thrown the believing community into disarray, for the Olive Tree into which believing gentiles during the Acts were grafted, would no longer be providing the root and fatness of New covenant blessing, for all was now in abeyance.

    A way forward was necessary, and mercifully, God with His foreknowledge, provided it, in the revelation of The Mystery to Paul , with it's administration (Eph.3:6-9; Col.) He, as God's Steward, was given this dispensation of the grace of God to administer (Eph.3:2), and He did so, both verbally, and by the written record, which we are blessed with in this our own day, in the writings of Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1&2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon.

    * Salvation had been sent to the Gentiles (Acts 28:28), and they would hear it.

    Praise God!

    'Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you,
    and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ
    in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
    Whereof I am made a minister,
    according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you,
    to fulfil the word of God;
    Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations,
    but now is made manifest to His saints:
    To whom God would make known
    what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles;
    which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
    Whom we preach,
    warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom;
    that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
    Whereunto I also labour, striving according to His working,
    which worketh in me mightily.'

    (Col 1:24-29)

    * I hope this is the answer you require of me.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  8. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    Thanks Chris,

    Do you not think that Israel as a nation was temporarily cast aside as early as the time when Paul wrote the 11th chapter of Romans?:

    "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?" (Ro.11:15).

    "Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?" (Ro.11:12).

     
  9. readywriter

    readywriter Newbie

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    Thus saith the LORD;
    If my covenant be not with day and night,
    and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
    Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant,
    so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers
    over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob:
    for I will cause their captivity to return,
    and have mercy on them.'

    (Jer. 33:25-26)​
    @JerrySchugart

    Hello Jerry,

    The verses (above) make clear that God will not, 'cast away' His People, and Romans 11:1-2a confirm that:-

    'I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.
    For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew. ...
    Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,'

    They have become Lo'ammi, or, 'not My People' (temporarily) Hosea 9:1-11. See also Deuteronomy 30. The laying aside of Israel in unbelief took place at Acts 28: following the quotation of Isaiah 6:9-10, (Acts 28:26-27). Israel was warned that this could take place in Acts 13:40-41:-

    'Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
    "Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish:
    for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe,
    though a man declare it unto you."'
    See also Isaiah 29:13-14:-
    'Wherefore the Lord said, "Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth,
    and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me,
    and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
    Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people,
    even a marvellous work and a wonder:
    for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
    and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.'

    See also Habakkuk 1:5:-
    'Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously:
    for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.'

    We know that Israel was once again scattered among the nations, and ceased to be a nation.
    In Romans 11 Paul explains why only a remnant would be saved, and for what reason; but assures the Jews among his hearers that one day all Israel will be saved. However, the final turning away of Israel took place when the elders refused to believe in Acts 28.

    The Olive Tree will one day sprout again, and believing Israelites will be grafted back into it ; and it will again be the source of blessing to the nations, in that day. They will draw of the root and fatness of the Olive Tree again, when Israel are redeemed and take up their Divinely instituted role as Priests unto God, among the nations (Matthew 24:14).

    Praise God!

    Thank you.
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris

    PS: I apologise for the length of my post, Jerry, but it was as much for me as for you. It was a blessing, thank you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
  10. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    I never said that the LORD will cast away His people. Instead, I said that the verses which I quoted from the 11th chapter of Romans demonstrate that at the time that epistle was written Israel had been temporarily set aside.

    From what you said earlier you seem to think that didn't happen until Acts 28. So please give me your interpretation of the meaning of Romans 11:12 and Romans 11:15.

    Thanks!
     
  11. readywriter

    readywriter Newbie

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    @JerryShugard,

    Yes, I apologise, Jerry, if I have answered inappropriately. The term you used was, 'cast aside'. Regarding the two verses you have asked me to interpret in Romans 11; verses 12 and 15, the interpretation should be within their context.

    Verse 11:11-12, speaks of Israel's 'fall', or failure. It is expressed also, as their, 'diminishing'; their, 'casting away (v15); as being, 'broken off' (v17); 'spared not' (v.21); 'blindness' (v25); 'enemies' (v28); and, 'concluded in unbelief' (v32). Like Adam, Israel failed regarding the purpose which God had for them, they had, 'fallen aside', both will realise their destiny only when, 'in Christ'.

    The fact of their failure was obvious to Paul, as it would have been to the believing remnant, and in Romans eleven, Paul is reassuring his hearers that just as in Romans 5:20, the 'offence' was overruled by God unto much more abounding grace; so Israel's failure would be used by God to further His purposes.

    Israel's failure to believe God, meant that their high position was about to be forfeited. These verses in Romans anticipate Israel's setting aside, their loss of position, but they do not give evidence (within their context) that this final Loammi condition had taken place.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  12. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    About to be forfeited?

    Chris, you say that the following verse anticipates Israel's setting aside but the fact of the matter is the truth that by the time when the book of Romans was written Israel was already temporarily set aside:

    "For if their having been cast aside has carried with it the reconciliation of the world, what will their being accepted again be but Life out of death?" (Ro.11:15).​

    There is one easy way to determine when the present dispensation began and that is by looking about what Paul says about the dispensation or stewardship which was given to him by the Lord.
    Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:

    "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).

    "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).

    "...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).

    The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

    "But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24).

    There can be no doubt whatsoever that the event which marks the beginning of the "dispensation of grace" is the preaching of the "gospel of grace." And that had already happened before Acts 28.
     
  13. readywriter

    readywriter Newbie

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    Hello again,

    Thank you for your post, I apologise for not answering earlier.
    You have referred to Ephesians 3:2; Colossians 1:25; 1 Corinthians 9:17 and Acts 20:24, in which a dispensation is spoken of in relation to Paul:-

    "If ye have heard
    of the dispensation of the grace of God
    which is given me toward you"
    (Eph. 3:2).

    "Whereof I am made a minister,
    according to the dispensation of God
    which is given to me for you,
    to fulfil the word of God"

    (Col.1:25).

    "...a dispensation of the gospel
    is committed unto me"

    (1 Cor.9:17).

    "But none of these things move me,
    neither count I my life dear unto myself,
    so that I might finish my course with joy,
    and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus,
    to testify the gospel of the grace of God"

    (Acts 20:24).

    * I will address these in reverse. In Acts 20:24, Paul had not received the revelation of the Mystery, nor been appointed Steward of it's administration. He had just spoken to the elders at Ephesus, and summarised his ministry to them, in which he told them that he had declared unto them 'all the counsel of God'. In that summary there is no mention of the Mystery. So it could not have been given to Paul yet, otherwise he could not have claimed to have declared unto them 'all the counsel of God'. No, the ministry for which he was to become, 'The Lord's Prisoner', was yet to be made known to him. There was more than one dispensation given to Paul. Acts 20:24 and 1 Cor. 9:17 refer to 'a dispensation of the gospel'.

    * Paul had two ministries, which is revealed in Acts 26:15,16,


    'And I said, Who art thou, Lord?
    And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
    But rise, and stand upon thy feet:
    for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose,
    to make thee a minister and a witness
    both of these things which thou hast seen,
    and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; ... ...'

    * Ephesians 3:2 and Colossians 1:25, refer to the dispensation of the mystery, for it is these epistles, with Philippians, 1&2 Timothy and Titus, which were written following the revelation of the mystery, and were the outworking of the administration of that dispensation that God had given to Paul, as 'The Lord's Prisoner'.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  14. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    Yes, that is correct. One ministry was to the Jews and the other to the Gentiles. And as I already shown you, his ministry to the Gentiles was to preach the gospel of grace. And it is that gospel which is according to the revelation of the mystery:

    ""Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, even the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith" (Ro.16:25-26).

    You can see that those words were written in the epistle to the Romans and that epistle was written BEFORE Acts 28.
     
  15. readywriter

    readywriter Newbie

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    @Jerry Shugart :

    Hello there,

    Yes, Romans was indeed written before Acts 28, but the epistles of Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 2 Timothy and Titus, were written after Acts 28, and made necessary by the event which took place at that point in time: namely, the final rejection and turning away, which led to the laying aside (temporarily) of Israel in unbelief.

    * The subject of these further epistles, is the dispensation which was laid upon Paul, as it's Steward, to administer the fellowship of The Mystery, which had been hid in God from the beginning of the world (Ephesian 3:9). 'That the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel whereof I was made a minister'. This good news also concerns Christ's exaltation as Head of the Church which is His Body: this is revealed in the prison epistles, along with the final defeat of Satan, and the subjugation of all spiritual beings under the Headship of Christ (Col.2:10).

    * The epistle to the Romans knows nothing of this, for it had not been revealed at the time of it's writing, having been 'hid in God'.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
  16. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    Chris, the gospel of the glory of Christ is the gospel of grace and that was the gospel preached before Acts 28 and after Acts 28. We can see that Paul was preaching that gospel at Colossians 1:5-6.

    You are just making up a gospel which doesn't even exist in order to cling to the fiction that the Body of Christ spoken of at 1 Corinthians 12:13 is a different Body than the one mentioned in the epistles written after Acts 28. The present dispensation of grace began at Acts 13 when Paul started preaching the gospel of grace to the Gentiles.
     
  17. readywriter

    readywriter Newbie

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    @Jerry Shugart

    Hello Jerry,

    Please do not accuse me of 'making up' anything, Jerry: for that is a very deliberate and calculated action, of which I am not guilty. Making a mistake is something which we can all do, and that is obviously what I have done. I know how I came to make this mistake, and will rectify it immediately by deleting it from the text of my previous post.

    However, the 'body' of Corinthians is indeed different to that which is the subject of the prison epistles, and if you would like to discuss it with me, I would be glad to do so.

    Thank you
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
  18. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    Excuse me Chris. You shouldn't believe those who just made things up in order to justify their teaching with what the Bible teaches.
     
  19. readywriter

    readywriter Newbie

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    @Jerry Shugart,

    Hello Jerry,

    No, I agree, you should not. Thank you for the warning, but I am already very careful whom I listen to.

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
  20. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    A new dispensation or stewardship begins when a steward begins to act upon the commission he has been given. Earlier I quoted three verses from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him. And that commission or stewardship responsibility began when he began to preach the gospel of grace to the Gentiles at Acts 13:

    "But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).

    What do you say is the stewardship responsibility for the present dispensation and what Scriptual proof can you give to support your belief?
     
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