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Which translation do you use and why?

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JohnJones

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Ok, Oblio, if I am so WAY OFF base here why are you having such a hard time showing me where I can obtain an LXX that is not a 'critical' text based on Vaticanus and Sinaiticus which were discovered in the 1840s? Just tell me where I can find I copy of the LXX that the GO was using, say, prior to 1776 and I'll be happy. Now, if no one can direct me to a nonCT (not based on Vatic. and Sinait.) text of the LXX, then I know that one of the things I said is true and either (1) there never was a traditional LXX and the whole thing was fabricated in the early 4th century and ceased to exist at the end of the 4th century and stayed hidden and unknown all the way until 1840 OR (2) there is a traditional LXX, but it is being suppressed by modern scholars who worship Vaticanus and Sinaiticus as some sort of Divine Duality. Either way, there is a problem with using the LXX--since we don't have the traditional text thereof.
 
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Oblio

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(1) there never was a traditional LXX and the whole thing ceased to exist at the end of the 4th century all the way until 1840 OR (2) there is a traditional LXX, but it is being suppressed by modern scholars who worship Vaticanus and Sinaiticus as some sort of Divine Duality.

False dillema.

Perhaps there are no extant ancient copies outside of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Your complaint proves nothing.

As for the second, perhaps they are guarded by a hermit in the deserts of Mt. Athos, kept there to keep us from the truth. :doh: I think he has them stashed next to the documentation of the Invisible Persecuted Church (IPC) :doh: :doh: :doh:
 
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AVBunyan

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The LXX is nothing more than Origen's fifth column of the infamous hexaphala written in Egypt during the 3rd century.

Documentation you say?

Why bother - you wouldn't receive it anyway. Some of you are not about to step out of your comfort zone and go against the world on this!

God bless
 
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Oblio

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Documentation you say?

Why bother - you wouldn't receive it anyway. Some of you are not about to step out of your comfort zone and go against the world on this!

So you believe in the trail of blood story :scratch: and the IPC, for which there is no scholarly evidence ?
 
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JohnJones

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Oblio said:
Perhaps there are no extant ancient copies outside of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Your complaint proves nothing.

Are there any copies of the LXX made after the 4th century yet prior to the 1800s? You see, Oblio my friend, if there are no extant manuscripts other than those recently discovered in the 1800s which were written in the 4th--if there are no post-4th century mss--then that disproves your claim that the Greek Orthodox church has been using the LXX for 2000 years! If you've really been using it for 2000 years you'd have lots and lots of copies being made during the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th centuries and so on. Where are these mss from these centuries? I want a copy.
 
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Oblio

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You see, Oblio my friend, if there are no extant manuscripts other than those recently discovered in the 1800s which were written in the 4th--if there are no post-4th century mss--then that disproves your claim that the Greek Orthodox church has been using the LXX for 2000 years!

Well, no it doesn't, all it proves is that we don't have a copy from those centuries, it does not prove that they did not exist or were not used.
 
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AVBunyan

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PaladinValer said:
AV, historically wrong. Please try again.

Documentation you say?

Why bother - you wouldn't receive it anyway. Some of you are not about to step out of your comfort zone and go against the world on this!

God bless
 
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JohnJones

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Oblio said:
Well, no it doesn't, all it proves is that we don't have a copy from those centuries, it does not prove that they did not exist or were not used.


So apparently copies of the NT wore out so that new ones had to be made in EVERY century and new ones had to be made because more people wanted them, but copies of the OT never wore out and no one new ever wanted one so they were all made in some early century (4th, I suppose)? And in fact, two copies, Vaticanus and Sinaticus, which were lost for 1500 years, were sufficient to handle the OT needs of the ENTIRE Greek Orthodox church for all those centuries? Come on, Oblio! You know better. Copies had to be made during these centuries. So, the question is, why can't you find a printed LXX text based on THEM rather than on Sinaiticus and Vaticanus? It's a conspiracy to be sure.
 
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TSIBHOD

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AVBunyan said:
Documentation you say?

Why bother - you wouldn't receive it anyway. Some of you are not about to step out of your comfort zone and go against the world on this!

God bless
AV, you have to realize that it's not very believable when people take this line. "I have proof that what I'm saying is true!"

"Then provide it please."

"Oh, no. I have proof, but I'm not going to let you see it."

"I'm not going to believe what you say unless you provide evidence...."

"You wouldn't believe the evidence anyway."

AV, with that line of reasoning, everyone who asks for evidence wouldn't believe it. If you say you've got evidence, and you don't provide it, then people will think you're full of baloney. My advice is, don't just say, "I could prove this, but I choose not to." People don't believe that. Just provide the documentation.

Maybe you think people will refute your documentation. Well, if the people are wrong, what's the harm? And if they are right, they might help you to not trust an unreliable source anymore. :)
 
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Oblio

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It's a conspiracy to be sure.

Of course :doh:
Along with the conspiracy to suppress the 'Bible believing' Christians that hid from that Apostolic Church for 1500 years, not allowed to read the Bible and marytred for their beliefs.
 
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TSIBHOD

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AV, you said that you compare the modern saints to the saints of "the good ol' days." Those saints, you say, were hlier, and this is evidence of how the KJV is better for holiness. Let's walk through this.

Premise 1. People 100 years ago used the KJV, and some of them were holier than the best we have today. [1] [<-- that's a footnote, by the way. See the end of this post.]

Premise 2. People today use various versions, including the KJV, and none of them can match the holiness of the "cream of the crop" of previous generations. [2]

Premise 3. The KJV was what caused the holiness of previous generations, and modern versions are what cause the decadence of today's generation.

But, I would reply,

Since people still use the KJV, why is it that we don't see them being holier and better Christians than other Christians who use other versions. People used to use only the KJV, and people today use various versions. People used to be holier when they used the KJV, and people today who use various versions are "punier" Christians. Surprisingly, even KJV-users are punier Christians! [3]

Of course, other things have changed in the past 100 years, so why couldn't it be one of those things that has made Christians weaker? It would seem that this is the case, since even the KJV-using Christians of today are weaker. [4]

Anyway, I think you're shutting your eyes to the evidence. If the KJV makes for better Christians, then let's see that correlation. KJV-users should be holier on average than non-KJV-users are on average. I don't see that as the case, and for the reasons I've said, I find unconvincing your argument that previous generations are the ones we should compare to today's non-KJV-users. There are lots of other difference between those two groups, as I touched upon.

The ball's in your court, friend.

________________________________________________​

[1] We can't speak as to the average saint, because those ones wouldn't be famous enough for us to know about. And we do know that the people you mentioned did certainly battle carnality among Christians. So I don't think that your everyday Christian was any better than today's regular Christian.

[2] This is arguable. It's hard to compare the quality of Christians across time. Shucks, it's hard to compare the holiness of Christians even when they are both right in front of us. We can look at the works they do, and that may give us some measure, although God did say something about how we tend to look at the outward appearance while He looks at the heart.

Further complicating the problem is the fact that what we know about the actual lives (not writings) of previous heroes of the faith comes in biography form. When admirers are writing about the life of a person, they tend to glaze over the bad parts and emphasize the good parts, usually in the process exaggerating the greatness of the individual. Biographers tend to make heroes look like superheroes who have no weaknesses.

[3] As it turns out, you're using a form of reasoning that I don't recommend: post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

[4] In fact, it looks like to me that the Christians who are closest to God are the ones in persecuted countries (in general, of course). They don't have all the pleasures of this world that distract them, and in fact, they have to be in hiding from persecutors while they worship. They are making real sacrifices for their faith. I think that it is enmity with the world is friendship with God. Some persecuted Christians don't even have any Bibles at all, but their faith would probably beat most anyone here.
 
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AVBunyan

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TSIBHOD said:
AV, you have to realize that it's not very believable when people take this line. "I have proof that what I'm saying is true!"

"Then provide it please."

Dr. Peter S. Ruckman's "The Christian's Handbook of Manuscript Evidence" - chapter on "The Mythical LXX" - if that is unacceptable to you then just search google using key words - I did and found mutiple articles in less than 10 minutes. If that is still not enough then there is nothing more I can do. continue to believe what you've been taught - won't bother me a bit.

I stick with my original position. Again, I get the idea no matter what some of you folks read you will not break away from the world's thinking on this subject.
 
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AVBunyan

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TSIBHOD said:
The ball's in your court, friend.

Then if it is in my court then I chose to end my portion and head out - nothing more I can say or do here. If you want to feel you've gotten the best of me then fine - won't bother me - never said I was an expert - just a simple fella who believes what he has in his hands is the pure and infallible word of God which appears that this is something that many of you folks cannot say about any version you read.

If you want to say I'm leaving without answering alll your aruguements then that is fine - just don't know how to answer some of yor arguments that would be acceptable to you and some I just can't answer anyway - don't mind admitting. I've had questions that some of you folks have not answered either.

This has been going on and going nowhere and it is obvious nobody is going to change their minds. You've shown me nothing but the standard party line that is in agreement with the world (lost and saved) on the issue of authority. I've been answering the same old tired arguments regarding all that is wrong with my position and you can say the same about my arguments.

There comes a time when the discussion just comes to no profit and I feel we have reached it.

God tells me to redeem the time and this is no longer redeeming the time as I see it - so please, continue on without me.


It has been interesting but I'm out.


God bless :wave:
 
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TSIBHOD

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AVBunyan said:
Then if it is in my court then I chose to end my portion and head out - nothing more I can say or do here. If you want to feel you've gotten the best of me then fine - won't bother me - never said I was an expert - just a simple fella who believes what he has in his hands is the pure and infallible word of God which appears that this is something that many of you folks cannot say about any version you read.

If you want to say I'm leaving without answering alll your aruguements then that is fine - just don't know how to answer some of yor arguments that would be acceptable to you and some I just can't answer anyway - don't mind admitting. I've had questions that some of you folks have not answered either.

This has been going on and going nowhere and it is obvious nobody is going to change their minds. You've shown me nothing but the standard party line that is in agreement with the world (lost and saved) on the issue of authority. I've been answering the same old tired arguments regarding all that is wrong with my position and you can say the same about my arguments.

There comes a time when the discussion just comes to no profit and I feel we have reached it.

God tells me to redeem the time and this is no longer redeeming the time as I see it - so please, continue on without me.


It has been interesting but I'm out.


God bless :wave:
What you quoted--I simply meant that it was your turn to reply. But if you are tired of this discussion, that's fine.
 
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Oblio

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In fact, it looks like to me that the Christians who are closest to God are the ones in persecuted countries (in general, of course). They don't have all the pleasures of this world that distract them, and in fact, they have to be in hiding from persecutors while they worship. They are making real sacrifices for their faith. I think that it is enmity with the world is friendship with God. Some persecuted Christians don't even have any Bibles at all, but their faith would probably beat most anyone here.

Amin !

Persecution builds the faith and some of the greatest saints come for the recent persecuted East and from the Christians prior to St. Constantine freeing the Christian nation from pagan persecution.
 
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