ReverendDG
Defeater of Dad and AV1611VET
As may have said, you are still conflating christian with creationist, they are not the same, you can be a christian and not a creationist or viceversa
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Which Requires More Faith?
- Thread starter ThatChristian
- Start date
As may have said, you are still conflating christian with creationist, they are not the same, you can be a christian and not a creationist or viceversa
Logic_Fault
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi Ubique
I've always been partial to the definition Ambrose Bierce gave for faith in his satirical Devil's Dictionary. In fact, I use it in my signature line:
faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who
speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.
Anyway, what part of your definition describes evolution again? None of it since evolution is not taken on faith and nobody "believes" in it any more than they "believe" the Earth is round or the Sun will rise tomorrow. Both of those examples, and evolution itself, are accepted because they're all supported with evidence.
Why should I have to find god? Isn't he the omniscient one? If he wants to speak to me, or wants me to speak to him, he knows where to find me. I'm not about to go play a cosmic game of hide-and-seek with an entity that nobody has any evidence even exists.
I still don't see where he has any business criticizing a biological theory. He didn't even study anything remotely close to biology. As I said, his opinion on it is about as meaningful as if I were to criticize Dr. Hawking's latest work.
Ah ha! Now we're getting to people who are actually qualified by their area of degree and study to have an opinion on evolution. Unfortunately none of them actually perform any research (to my knowledge) regarding Creationism. What they do tend to do is write books, lecture and lobby the government to have their pet project (ID/Creationism) put into schools. Now, if any of them would care to step up to the plate with all of their "evidence" they claim to have, show their experiments they've performed and submit their ideas to peer reviewed, respected and established biological science journals they might get somewhere.
But they can't. They have no theories (not even a hypothesis beyond "Goddidit" which isn't even a hypothesis), no experimental results and no evidence other than what they can twist out of valid scientific results.
Even if they showed, somehow, that evolution was incorrect they would still have to come up with a rival explanation. A valid scientific explanation, not just "Goddidit."
Once again, a scientist in a field outside of biology has no business criticizing evolution. It's akin to a paleontologist telling an astrophysicist his theory about black holes is wrong. Science just doesn't work like that.
Another argument from authority. It doesn't matter what someone "believes", no matter who they are or what their accomplishments. It's like saying that a Nobel Prize winner was racist, therefor racism is correct because he believed it.
It's evidence that determines what is correct and what isn't. Evolution has the evidence, ID/Creationism doesn't. Unless you count it as evidence when they misrepresent or distort actual scientific findings for their own purposes.
And? I don't care if they believe we all popped into existence yesterday with all our memories intact; the evidence would show otherwise.
Science is neither a majority vote nor a popularity contest. The evidence either supports your theories or it doesn't. If it doesn't then you are wrong and must start again. Creationists have yet to even find any evidence or form a hypothesis beyond "Goddidit," which, as I pointed out, isn't even a valid scientific hypothesis.
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Let's look at some words from that famous YEC Dr. John Baumgardner, who you say is a believer, taken from an article he published in the prestigious journal Science. (I added a bold in the abstract)
Science 3 April 1998:
Vol. 280. no. 5360, pp. 91 - 95
DOI: 10.1126/science.280.5360.91
Reports
Time Scales and Heterogeneous Structure in Geodynamic Earth Models
Hans-Peter Bunge, * Mark A. Richards, Carolina Lithgow-Bertelloni, John R. Baumgardner, Stephen P. Grand, Barbara A. Romanowicz Computer models of mantle convection constrained by the history of Cenozoic and Mesozoic plate motions explain some deep-mantle structural heterogeneity imaged by seismic tomography, especially those related to subduction. They also reveal a 150-million-year time scale for generating thermal heterogeneity in the mantle, comparable to the record of plate motion reconstructions, so that the problem of unknown initial conditions can be overcome. The pattern of lowermost mantle structure at the core-mantle boundary is controlled by subduction history, although seismic tomography reveals intense large-scale hot (low-velocity) upwelling features not explicitly predicted by the models.
So is J.B. really a young earth believer of was he lying when he published the above?
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Mickey1953
Senior Veteran
The way that I have intended to state it: to claim Creation I have to believe in a higher power. To be a Christian I have to believe in Jesus, which I do. Forgive me if I confused that issue. I used persons who may be both.... but, the intent in sharing them: they believe in a higher power. And that makes them a believer in a Creator.
On a personal level to answer the question:
"Do you have to have more faith in Evolution or Creation?"
This is the God I believe in: In His word I put my hope.... with Him is forgiveness...
All I have needed for faith in God, was as small as a mustard seed...
To know God all you have to do is draw near to Him and He will draw near to you....
As high as the Heavens is His love
His compassion never fails.... therefore I have hope in Him.
When I began my journey with God - the God I believe created the Heavens and the Earth... it began with very little faith.... but faith all the same.
I would be glad to share my journey with you .....
Just let me know by sending a personal message.
Sincerely,
Mickey
Seek Him and He will find you....
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Mickey1953
Senior Veteran
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Mickey1953
Senior Veteran
For any moderators that are viewing this....
on the forum at this time is fishface and myself.
I tried to post a picture and someone is being disrespectful.
This is an open forum.... I am going to send in a complaint.
Whatever the reason..... you do not have to agree with me, but I have been responding in a respectful way as the forum rules expect. I expect it in return.... whether you believe as I do or not...
Sincerely
Mickey
on the forum at this time is fishface and myself.
I tried to post a picture and someone is being disrespectful.
This is an open forum.... I am going to send in a complaint.
Whatever the reason..... you do not have to agree with me, but I have been responding in a respectful way as the forum rules expect. I expect it in return.... whether you believe as I do or not...
Sincerely
Mickey
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Upisoft
CEO of a waterfal
None was disrespectful. You've tried to post image with following URL:
Code:
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:DHBFwp1rge5WNM:http://www.ebibleteacher.com/backgrnd/3crossesatsunset.jpg
. Perhaps it is a bug. You better report it to the Administrators.
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Mickey1953
Senior Veteran
None was disrespectful. You've tried to post image with following URL:
It contains a "smile" combinationCode:http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:DHBFwp1rge5WNM:http://www.ebibleteacher.com/backgrnd/3crossesatsunset.jpg
I appreciate your reply Upisoft,
I need lessons in both posting pictures and being patient....
I apoligize to all for my quick judgment....
sincerely
Mickey
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Logic_Fault
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi Ubique
Actually, your image appears to be formatted correctly for the forum to display it but in the URL is the combination of a colon and a D which, as I'm sure you know, the forum interprets as a "
" smiley.In other words, it's nothing you did wrong it's just that the forum software doesn't distinguish between an actual smiley and one that just happens to appear in a URL.
Also, I'm sure very few of us don't need practice being patient.
No harm done.
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Mickey1953
Senior Veteran
Actually, your image appears to be formatted correctly for the forum to display it but in the URL is the combination of a colon and a D which, as I'm sure you know, the forum interprets as a "
In other words, it's nothing you did wrong it's just that the forum software doesn't distinguish between an actual smiley and one that just happens to appear in a URL.
Also, I'm sure very few of us don't need practice being patient.
No harm done.
Sincerely thankyou Logic_Fault.....and again to the posters on this thread... especially fishface and Frumious Bandersnatch - I am sorry....
Frumious Bandersnatch it was the report button on your post I hit. I did not know it directed it at that posting.... still learning and I hope you will forgive me. I am trying to correct it.
Sincerely,
Mickey
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Aron-Ra
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Here are some statistics:
"According to Newsweek in 1987, "By one count there are some 700 scientists with respectable academic credentials (out of a total of 480,000U.S. earth and life scientists) who give credence to creation-science..." That would make the support for creation science among those branches of science who deal with the earth and its life forms at about 0.14%"
--ReligiousTolerance.org
--ReligiousTolerance.org
"Although most scientists subscribe to the theory of evolution as the best explanation for the origin of human beings, a recent Gallup poll shows that the American public is much more dividedin its own beliefs. Americans choose "creationism" over "evolution" when asked which of these two terms best describes human origins, but slightly larger numbers of Americans choose one of two evolutionist explanations than choose a strict creationist explanation when given a choice between three specific views."...[only] 12% chose "Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in this process."
The public has not notably changed its opinion on this question since Gallup started asking it in 1982."--Gallup
"After asking Americans which of the three statements on the origin of humans they agreed with, Gallup asked,by name, which of the two theories they believe in more. Given this choice, more than half of Americans say they believe in or lean toward the "theory of creationism" while far fewer believe in or lean toward the "theory of evolution" (57% for creationism vs. 33% for evolution) and one out of 10 say they are unsure.
The first question reviewed above explains the precepts of the creationist and evolutionary approaches without mentioning the labels, while the second gives respondents only the labels without explanation. The results indicate some differences in interpretation based on which question is used. More Americans agree with the word "creationism" than agree with "evolution," but a slightly larger number choose an evolutionary explanation rather than a creationist explanationwhen given specifics.
"In order to better understand these issues, we examined the relationship between responses to these two questions, looking at how people who said they believed in or leaned toward one of the two theories answered the more specific question describing the three approaches to the origin and development of human beings.
Generally, there is a good deal of consistency between responses to the two questions. The majority (two out of three) of the people who said they believed more in "creationism" selected the statement "God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so." But interestingly, more than one-quarter of "creationists" selected a statement that can be seen as compatible with the scientific findings of evolutionary scholars: "Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process." Only 1% of "creationists" selected the evolutionary statement saying that "God had no part in the process." Thus, while almost no "creationists" believe that humans developed without God's help, a not insignificant minority believes that human beings developed from lower forms of life, as evolutionary scientists suggest, but that God helped the process along.
People who choose "evolution" as their preferred theory are most comfortable with the idea that God guided an evolutionary process of human development. A majority -- 51% -- selected the statement "Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process," while 34% selected that statement with the condition that "God had no part in this process." Finally, just 10% chose the statement that God created human beings within just the last 10,000 years.
What do these findings tell us? First, only a very small minority of "evolutionists" choose a creationist explanation when confronted with the specifics of the theories. Thus, the vast majority of "evolutionists" are consistent and choose an evolutionary explanation, with or without God's involvement.
On the other hand, over one-quarter of Americans who say they believe in the creationist perspective choose an evolutionary statement -- albeit the one that has God's involvement. Thus, it appears that a substantial proportion of "creationists" cannot be distinguished from the majority of "evolutionists" in the way they think about the origins and development of humankind. While 57% of Americans claim to lean toward the label of "creationist," in actuality, only 41% of Americans are "creationists" who do not support an evolutionary way of thinking about human development. The difference suggests that there is either a very broad interpretation of the term "creationism" -- one that does not support the biblical account of the creation of the human race -- or that there is misunderstanding about what the label "creationism" means, among at least some of the creation-leaning public."
--Gallup
If you describe evolution correctly, -but say "adaptation", "genetics" or "change over time" rather than "evolution", then most Christians accept evolution even in the U.S.
"Individuals with more education and people with higher incomes are more likely to think that evidence supports the theory of evolution. Younger people are also more likely than older people to think that evidence supports Darwin's theory, perhaps reflecting the widespread teaching of evolution in the classroom in recent decades."
"Older and less educated Americans are more likely to reject evolution than are the younger and more educated population groups. American adults under the age of 30, for example, accept either one of the two evolutionary explanations for the origins of human beings (either guided by God or not) by a margin of 56% to 42%, very similar to the pattern of responses in the 30-49 age group (53% to 44%). However, the 50-64 age group is about evenly divided on the issue, with 47% who accept evolution and 50% who say God created human beings about 10,000 years ago. And among Americans 65 and older, only 33% accept evolution, while 60% reject it.
Americans' level of education is also closely related to beliefs about evolution, with only 41% of non-college Americans accepting evolution and 55% rejecting it. Americans with "some" college, by contrast, favor evolution by a 50% to 45% margin, compared with a 58% to 41% margin of support among college graduates, and a 66% to 30% margin of support among those with some post-graduate education."
--Gallup
"In the United States, creationism is popular among the general Christian population, and considered to be scientifically irrelevant in the academic and scientific communities. According to a 2001 Gallup evolution poll on the origins of humans, 72% of Americans believe in some form of creationism. About45% of Americans assented to the statement that "God created manpretty much in his present form at one time within the last 10,000 years. ..Most vocal creationists are from the United States, and creationist views are much less common elsewhere in the Western World. According to a PBS documentary on evolution, Australian Young Earth Creationists claimed that "five percent of the Australian population now believe that Earth is thousands, rather than billions, of years old." The documentary further states that "Australia is a particular stronghold of the creationist movement." Taking these claims at face value, Young Earth Creationism is very much a minority position in Western countries.
In Europe, creationism is a less well-defined phenomenon, and regular polls are not available. However, evolution is taught as scientific fact in most schools. In countries with a Roman Catholic majority, papal acceptance of evolution as worthy of study has essentially ended debate on the matter for many people.
--Wikipedia
"between 10 and 20 percent of Queensland [Australia] university students responding to a 1986 poll agreed with statements supporting the evolutionary view and with statements opposing it: they agreed that "the earth is less than 10,000 years old", and also agreed that "fossils are the remains of plants and animals which have gradually accumulated in sediments over millions of years"!
--Wikipedia
"According to a 2002 poll of adult Europeans conducted by a professional institute (IHA-GfK, Hergiswil, Switzerland), only 40% of the respondents agreed with the statement that the universe, the earth, and all organisms of the biosphere are entirely the product of a natural evolutionary process. Twenty-one percent were adherents of theistic evolution, 20% believed that God created all organisms at one time within the last 10 000 years, and 19% answered “don’t know/ other opinion”...the highest percentage [of Biblical creationists] was in Switzerland (21.8%), followed by Austria (20.4%) and Germany (18.1%). Compared with the situation in the United States, where almost half of all adults deny evolution as a fact of nature..."
--National Center for Science Education
Most predominantly-Christian European countries are roughly 60% evolutionist, and only 20% Creationist at most, even in countries with a high degree of trust in religion. The US population usually rates at 89% to 96% Christian. Of them, we have a substantially higher percentage of Biblical creationists than anywhere else (most of the rest of Christendom being largely-evolutionist Catholics). Yet even here, true creationists account for less than half of that percentage. This means that most Christians are evolutionists.
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No Problem.
This forum occasionally does some funky things. I once tried several times to post a url to a site about trace fossils that completely by chance had some combination of letters in it that the forum software considered offensive. It kept changing the letters to *** which made the url inoberable of course. I never could get around it.
F.B.
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Logic_Fault
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi Ubique
You're quite welcome.
While I may not agree with your point of view on certain things, nor you with me, I hope you wont take anything I post personally. As far as I'm concerned you're a-ok in my book.
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Mickey1953
Senior Veteran
You're quite welcome.
While I may not agree with your point of view on certain things, nor you with me, I hope you wont take anything I post personally. As far as I'm concerned you're a-ok in my book.
Thank you again....
and you are too Logic_Fault.
Frumious Bandersnatch, thank you for being gracious.
I think I will sign off and bake some cookies....
Peace to you,
Mickey
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Mickey1953
Senior Veteran
Most welcome
Send some of those cookies this way, will ya?
The cookies were good I would have been glad to share they were chocolate chip with chocolate topping
I was riding the bus this AM (Special Education Assistant/ country run .)
I was looking at the most beautiful sun rise
Because I am of the faith of a Creator, this sight gave me so much peace. I will carry this with me through my day, with the students at school, and the other things that I experience in the day. I am not speaking for anyone else, but I know this about myself - What I believe in; affects how I live, relate, speak, care, and share; each and every day.
[FONT="]I am going to re-read our postings. I have missed some things and I have some questions for you. This day is passing fast, and I may not have time to pursue the thread only long enough to post this.
[/FONT]
Mickey
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Mickey1953
Senior Veteran
My personal opinion is it would be hard to believe in God and Evolution... that would take much faith.
(My opinion)
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2005/October/16/local/stories/09local.htm
Part of the article..to see all go to web site
"Evolution through natural selection is the most plausible explanation for where we are today," said David W. Deamer, professor of chemistry and biochemistry at UCSC.
This view, however, is shared only by 26 percent of Americans, according to a recent Pew Poll of 2,000 adults, while 42 percent believe in creationism the Christian concept that living beings have always existed in their present form. Another 18 percent believe in evolution guided by a supreme being.
Poll: Creationism Trumps Evolution
Part of the article..to see all go to web site
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml
NEW YORK, Nov. 22, 2004
his poll was conducted among a nationwide random sample of 885 adults interviewed by telephone November 18-21, 2004. There were 795 registered voters. The error due to sampling could be plus or minus three percentage points for results based on all adults and all registered voters.
Poll: Most people reject evolution theory
http://www.physorg.com/news11541.html
March 08, 2006
Part of the article..to see all go to web site
About 31 percent of respondents said they believe humans evolved, but God guided the process. Only 1.2 percent said they believe the scientific theory of evolution and "God had no part."
http://www.origins.org/menus/design.html
Interesting site for Intelligent Design - found it - I have not had time to look at it....If anyone is interested....
In one of the articles: It said something like:
People over 60 (not there yet)
Not highly educated.... (I am not a scientist)
And Republican, (That I am.)
They usually believe in a Creation....
I am not sure how acurrate polls can be, but I thought someone might be interested...
I find there is usually another poll that dispels a poll of the same subject or does over time....
Mickey
(My opinion)
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2005/October/16/local/stories/09local.htm
Part of the article..to see all go to web site
"Evolution through natural selection is the most plausible explanation for where we are today," said David W. Deamer, professor of chemistry and biochemistry at UCSC.
This view, however, is shared only by 26 percent of Americans, according to a recent Pew Poll of 2,000 adults, while 42 percent believe in creationism the Christian concept that living beings have always existed in their present form. Another 18 percent believe in evolution guided by a supreme being.
Poll: Creationism Trumps Evolution
Part of the article..to see all go to web site
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml
NEW YORK, Nov. 22, 2004
his poll was conducted among a nationwide random sample of 885 adults interviewed by telephone November 18-21, 2004. There were 795 registered voters. The error due to sampling could be plus or minus three percentage points for results based on all adults and all registered voters.
Poll: Most people reject evolution theory
http://www.physorg.com/news11541.html
March 08, 2006
Part of the article..to see all go to web site
About 31 percent of respondents said they believe humans evolved, but God guided the process. Only 1.2 percent said they believe the scientific theory of evolution and "God had no part."
http://www.origins.org/menus/design.html
Interesting site for Intelligent Design - found it - I have not had time to look at it....If anyone is interested....
In one of the articles: It said something like:
People over 60 (not there yet)
Not highly educated.... (I am not a scientist)
And Republican, (That I am.)
They usually believe in a Creation....
I am not sure how acurrate polls can be, but I thought someone might be interested...
I find there is usually another poll that dispels a poll of the same subject or does over time....
Mickey
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Aron-Ra
Senior Veteran
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Believing in gods does take faith. But accepting evolution doesn't. The scientific perspective is that truth is better discerned through scrutiny and doubt than by assuming your own preferred conclusions.
This poll was a sample of the US only, where there are [statistically] vastly more creationists than in any other 'developed' nation on Earth.
Its a propaganda site, and therefore wholly unreliable.Poll: Most people reject evolution theory
http://www.physorg.com/news11541.html
March 08, 2006
Part of the article..to see all go to web site
About 31 percent of respondents said they believe humans evolved, but God guided the process. Only 1.2 percent said they believe the scientific theory of evolution and "God had no part."
http://www.origins.org/menus/design.html
Interesting site for Intelligent Design - found it - I have not had time to look at it....If anyone is interested....
It all depends on where you place the pollster, and how you phrase the questions. Like I said, if you describe evolution, but don't use that label, then you swing the poll results the other way.
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MrGoodBytes
Seeker for life, probably
Ask those people to find France, Germany, Iraq or North Korea on a map, and you will get a resounding "huh?". Ask those people whether Elvis is still alive, and they'll agree. Ask the same people whether we really landed on the moon, and you'll get a no.My personal opinion is it would be hard to believe in God and Evolution... that would take much faith.
(My opinion)
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2005/October/16/local/stories/09local.htm
Part of the article..to see all go to web site
"Evolution through natural selection is the most plausible explanation for where we are today," said David W. Deamer, professor of chemistry and biochemistry at UCSC.
This view, however, is shared only by 26 percent of Americans, according to a recent Pew Poll of 2,000 adults, while 42 percent believe in creationism the Christian concept that living beings have always existed in their present form. Another 18 percent believe in evolution guided by a supreme being.
Poll: Creationism Trumps Evolution
Part of the article..to see all go to web site
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml
NEW YORK, Nov. 22, 2004
his poll was conducted among a nationwide random sample of 885 adults interviewed by telephone November 18-21, 2004. There were 795 registered voters. The error due to sampling could be plus or minus three percentage points for results based on all adults and all registered voters.
Poll: Most people reject evolution theory
http://www.physorg.com/news11541.html
March 08, 2006
Part of the article..to see all go to web site
About 31 percent of respondents said they believe humans evolved, but God guided the process. Only 1.2 percent said they believe the scientific theory of evolution and "God had no part."
http://www.origins.org/menus/design.html
Interesting site for Intelligent Design - found it - I have not had time to look at it....If anyone is interested....
In one of the articles: It said something like:
People over 60 (not there yet)
Not highly educated.... (I am not a scientist)
And Republican, (That I am.)
They usually believe in a Creation....
I am not sure how acurrate polls can be, but I thought someone might be interested...
I find there is usually another poll that dispels a poll of the same subject or does over time....
Mickey
Besides, argumentum ad populum and so on.
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