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Which Requires More Faith?

Mickey1953

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When my second to the last child was born, she was blessed with a great curiosity about everything. She needed answers at a very young age and I knew that if I did not give her a chance to see both Creation and Evolution, I would have lost her to a world of strong, secular beliefs, and she may end up not being given an opportunity on a teaching bases; to learn about a Creation by God. I needed to show her side by side what each held for a foundation for life. I have worked at our local school for many years. I knew what she would be taught in school, so we took her to museums. We have both Evolution and Creation books on our book shelves in our home. We knew both Creation and Evolution would have their explanations based on their assumptions (prior to having knowledge which takes some faith.) Evolutionists have certain beliefs about the past/present that they presuppose, which includes no God and Creationists base beliefs on the past/ present that they presuppose that include God. As I shared in another post, I had lived a life without God. I did not want to pass that on to my children. With Creation comes God, out of Creation may come Jesus Christ.

We found as a family it took a great amount of belief or faith to hold onto what was being shared in the museums and taught in our Evolution books. It took faith to believe in God, but if measured, it simply took a step of faith and trust by us and by our children. God does the rest.

The idea that particles turned into people over time, without any need for an intelligent designer I cannot accept. The ‘General Theory of Evolution’ is ‘the theory that all the living forms in the world have arisen from a single source which itself came from an inorganic form.’ It is my belief that only a gift as marvelous as new life, earth, and space - no matter what is understood by men, that it has to be intricately controlled and created by a Supreme Creator.

I cannot argue to an Evolutionist - Creation. But, I know Creation, because I know the Creator.

Deut. 4:29 says: ... if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find Him if you look for Him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Have you seen this DVD?


B0002E34C0.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg


Peace to you, Mickey
 
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RedAndy

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When my second to the last child was born, she was blessed with a great curiosity about everything. She needed answers at a very young age and I knew that if I did not give her a chance to see both Creation and Evolution, I would have lost her to a world of strong, secular beliefs, and she may end up not being given an opportunity on a teaching bases; to learn about a Creation by God. I needed to show her side by side what each held for a foundation for life. I have worked at our local school for many years. I knew what she would be taught in school, so we took her to museums. We have both Evolution and Creation books on our book shelves in our home. We knew both Creation and Evolution would have their explanations based on their assumptions (prior to having knowledge which takes some faith.) Evolutionists have certain beliefs about the past/present that they presuppose, which includes no God and Creationists base beliefs on the past/ present that they presuppose that include God. As I shared in another post, I had lived a life without God. I did not want to pass that on to my children. With Creation comes God, out of Creation may come Jesus Christ.

We found as a family it took a great amount of belief or faith to hold onto what was being shared in the museums and taught in our Evolution books. It took faith to believe in God, but if measured, it simply took a step of faith and trust by us and by our children. God does the rest.

The idea that particles turned into people over time, without any need for an intelligent designer I cannot accept. The ‘General Theory of Evolution’ is ‘the theory that all the living forms in the world have arisen from a single source which itself came from an inorganic form.’ It is my belief that only a gift as marvelous as new life, earth, and space - no matter what is understood by men, that it has to be intricately controlled and created by a Supreme Creator.
Mickey: I commend your efforts to give your daughter and your other children a balanced education about Creationism and evolution.

But did it never occur to you that it is not a dichotomy? You seem to be implying that "evolutionist = atheist," but there are - even on these boards - many, many examples of Christians who accept evolution.

Despite what you say, evolution does not preclude a Creator. Unlike Creationism, of course, it doesn't necessarily require one. The point is that we should stop considering Creationism and evolution as polar opposites - one can perfectly legitimately believe that God created life through evolution.
 
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Beastt

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I think this is something that needs to be adressed.

Both Creation and Evolution are supported by scientific evidence. Neither, however, can be proven.
Creationism is not only not supported by scientific evidence, it is soundly and conclusively refuted via scientific evidence.

As concerns the claim that neither can be proved, please note that proof is not a standard of science. Science deals in evidence leading to the most likely conclusion and conclusions are what is produced, not proofs.

So here's the question I pose to you: Which one requires more faith?
That which the evidence doesn't support or refutes will always be that which requires faith to believe. In this case, that means creationism requires faith. Evolution is demonstrated via evidence and therefore, doesn't require faith.

The obvious answer would be Creation, right? Not really. Think of it. You can't prove one or the other, but one concerns an afterlife, and one doesn't.
Creationism addresses the existence of the universe and the life therein and supposes that God created all that exists, other than God.

In other words, Creationists believe that after you die, your soul is put... Somewhere.
While most creationists do believe this, it is not a part of creationism. Creationism addresses a supposed act of creation which is neither evident, nor supportable.

Let's focus on the Christian belief for now, since this is a Christian webbsite. Christians believe that if you do not accept Christ then you will go to Hell, but if you do accept Christ then you will go to Heaven.
Which is, in general terms, correct but has nothing to do with creationism.

Atheists believe that it doesn't matter what you do on this Earth, when you die, you're always the same thing: Dead.
Atheists do not believe there are any gods. While it is true that because most atheists do not believe in any gods, they also tend to disbelieve in an afterlife and other components commonly connected to theism, it is perfectly possible for an atheist to believe in an afterlife.

Abviously an Atheist is not going to accept Christ, so acording to what he does not believe in, he will go to Hell.
An atheist can accept that Jesus lived and is referred to as "The Christ". An atheist can accept that Jesus Christ is a myth. There are many ways that an atheist can "accept" Jesus Christ. He simply can't accept him as a god and remain an atheist.

However, a Christian will accept Christ, but according to what he does not believe in, he will end up in the same situation the Atheist is in: Death.
What will happen will happen no matter what one believes. If there is no God, when Christians die, they'll be just as dead as everyone else. There is a common and incorrect saying that there are no atheists in foxholes. Show me a Christian in Heaven. Can't do it?

So, which one requires more faith?
In any comparison between two exclusive concepts, if only one is in full compliance with the evidence, the other is the one which requires the most faith to believe. Faith is independent of evidence so concepts supported by evidence rule out the possibility of being accepted on faith unless the potential believer is unaware of the evidence.
 
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Beastt

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When my second to the last child was born, she was blessed with a great curiosity about everything.
Most children tend to be curious and it's a great way to learn. Some are more curious than others and I accept that the one to which you refer was more curious than most. In the interest if accuracy; that she was "blessed" with a great curiosity is your assumption and one without evidentiary support.

She needed answers at a very young age and I knew that if I did not give her a chance to see both Creation and Evolution, I would have lost her to a world of strong, secular beliefs, and she may end up not being given an opportunity on a teaching bases; to learn about a Creation by God.
At this point it is clear that while you have taken admirable steps to assure that she was introduced to both concepts, your bias for creationism is obvious. And since most children tend to believe what their parents believe, it would be unusual for her to accept evolution over creationism, despite the extreme advantage evolution has in regard to demonstrability and dozens of lines of evidence.

I needed to show her side by side what each held for a foundation for life.
Creationism does address the origin of life. Evolution does not.

I have worked at our local school for many years. I knew what she would be taught in school, so we took her to museums. We have both Evolution and Creation books on our book shelves in our home. We knew both Creation and Evolution would have their explanations based on their assumptions (prior to having knowledge which takes some faith.)
Creationism is not supported by scientific evidence, therefore it requires faith to believe. Evolution is fully supported by evidence and is not in contradiction to any viable evidence, therefore, faith cannot be applied.

Evolutionists have certain beliefs about the past/present that they presuppose, which includes no God
It may shock you to know that about half of Christians accept evolution and still believe in God. It may further surprise you to know that Charles Darwin was a Christian who accepted the idea that God created life. But he did not discount the evidence which lead him to drafting the original theory of evolution.

and Creationists base beliefs on the past/ present that they presuppose that include God.
Creationists base their beliefs upon the literal claims of the Bible, despite the fact that the evidence speaks strongly against such biblical claims.

As I shared in another post, I had lived a life without God. I did not want to pass that on to my children. With Creation comes God, out of Creation may come Jesus Christ.
Please note that there is no evidence of any creation ever within the known universe or within the existence of the universe. All that exists shows every sign of having existed, in one form or another, forever. The assumption of creation necessitates an assumption of nothingness prior to that creation. This assumed nothingness is also without evidence. Both of these unevidenced assumptions seem to serve no purpose other than to create a supposed, (yet unevidenced), act for God to perform.

We found as a family it took a great amount of belief or faith to hold onto what was being shared in the museums and taught in our Evolution books.
Then I think it fully fair to conclude that you did not understand what was being taught in those books because evolution is based on evidence and in full compliance with all known pertinent evidence. As such, faith is not only unnecessary, but inapplicable.

It took faith to believe in God, but if measured, it simply took a step of faith and trust by us and by our children. God does the rest.
Faith is simply blind belief. It takes only a strong desire to believe and there is no evidence that strong desires to believe anything come from other than the believer.

The idea that particles turned into people over time, without any need for an intelligent designer I cannot accept.
Most people who don't understand such a concept have a great amount of difficulty accepting it. And when their difficulty is compounded by beliefs which they hold to be contrary to such a concept, the odds that they will make an honest effort to fully understand the concept they prefer not to believe are quite limited.

Would you believe that two completely natural forces, working in unison on the same matter can sort them far faster than you can and with no intelligence involved?

I want to show you an image:

attachment.php

How many simple rules/forces, working together would it take to create such an image?
A. One

B. Twelve

C. Four

D. Thirty-two​

The ‘General Theory of Evolution’ is ‘the theory that all the living forms in the world have arisen from a single source which itself came from an inorganic form.’
You're speaking here of abiogenesis, not evolution. Evolution does not address the origin of life. It addresses only the diversity of species. This is a common mistake made by many who proclaim that they understand evolution but have never really taken the time or interest to even become familiar with what the theory does and does not address. This being the case it seems obvious that you could not have given your daughter an unbiased introduction to evolution since it is apparent that you think it addresses the origin of life when it doesn't. And if she read the same books you did with the same degree of comprehension, she still hasn't been introduced to the concept of evolution.

It is my belief that only a gift as marvelous as new life, earth, and space - no matter what is understood by men, that it has to be intricately controlled and created by a Supreme Creator.
I accept that this is your belief. However, it is a belief in stark contrast to the evidence and is usually perpetuated by a devout disinterest in learning how life could have spawned without intelligence at the controls.

In fact, the entire concept that life is too complex to have come about without an intelligence directing the process is contradictive. What you're trying to tell us is that life is too complex to have happened without intelligent direction, but you believe that this intelligence which served to direct the process came into being -- or simply exists -- without itself, being intelligently designed. So you've raised the level of complexity which "just exists", in order to explain the lesser complexity which is too complex to "just exist" or form without intelligent direction.

In short you're saying;
1. God, the highest level of perceptual complexity, just exists and was not intelligently created.

2. Life is markedly less complex than God but due to its complexity, could only be created by intelligence.​

I cannot argue to an Evolutionist - Creation. But, I know Creation, because I know the Creator.
You "believe" in creation because you "believe" in a Creator. You don't know these things no matter how much you might protest to the contrary. Being completely honest with others starts with being completely honest with yourself.

Deut. 4:29 says: ... if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find Him if you look for Him with all your heart and with all your soul.
I sought for 33-years and for all of that time, thought I had found the Lord. What it turned out I had found was a method of confirmation bias which allowed me to mold any evidence presented into compliance with the belief I desired to hold. Not until reality became unbelievably cruel and there was no god to assist, did I raise the need for truth above the need to believe in a god and an afterlife. That was when I start to find that truth.

Have you seen this DVD?
B0002E34C0.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg


Peace to you, Mickey

Have you seen this one?

Poster250x335.jpg


Oh! And the answer to my question above regarding how many rules/forces it takes to create such an image when all are working together is; Four. Just four and each one is no more complex than a point on a circle and produces either a single line or a single dot. The perception of complexity which can be produced by only a very few simple rules/forces, interacting upon a single element is astounding.

The blue brackets and back color denote the individual rules, (forces).

The red arrows indicate the drawing instructions.

attachment.php

Have you ever seen the complex shapes exhibited in columns of desert rocks? If you had never been introduced to the concept of sedimentation, rock density and hardness and the abrasiveness of sand when propelled by the wind, would you really believe those shapes were formed without intelligence?
 
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Mickey1953

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Beastt,
I appreciate your respones and to be honest I have to read it again -there is a lot of information you shared, and I will have to look at it one by one.


Quote from Beastt:
"It may shock you to know that about half of Christians accept evolution and still believe in God. It may further surprise you to know that Charles Darwin was a Christian who accepted the idea that God created life. But he did not discount the evidence which lead him to drafting the original theory of evolution."

To respond to the statement above:
The first part of the statement I did know about Christians; the second part about Charles Darwin I did not.

and yes, I am bias to Creation...It would be hard for me not to be.


And about the movie you shared, I did not see.

Again, thank you for your responding as you have.... I will try to search out the best to my ability; the other information you shared.

Sincerely
Mickey

And Quoted from MrGoodBytes,
'Does the pothole fit he puddle, or is it the other way round?'
If you have knowledge to share I really would be glad to read about it.... I want to see your views and others; and the reasons why.
Mickey
 
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Beastt

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MrGoodBytes said:
'Does the pothole fit he puddle, or is it the other way round?'

If you have knowledge to share I really would be glad to read about it.... I want to see your views and others; and the reasons why.
Mickey
I hope I didn't interpret your question about his comment incorrectly but I'm thinking maybe you didn't quite see what it was he was trying to say. So since I'm familiar with this analogy, I'll attempt to offer some clarity. If I'm mistaken and you did understand what he was presenting, then I'll apologize and you can feel free to ignore the rest of this post.

For a long, long time it was thought that the planet upon which we live was an amazing match for the life forms we find upon it. It was though to be too amazing to simply be a coincidence. The availability of water, the temperature, the gases in the atmosphere, the content of the Earth's crust and many other factors seem an almost perfect match to the creatures which inhabit the Earth.

But eventually it became apparent that looking at things from this angle is missing the whole point. We all know that planets don't conform to the needs of the life on those planets anymore than oceans become wet to accommodate marine life. If a planet doesn't meet the needs of a particular life form, that life form simply won't be found on that planet because its basic needs for survival aren't met. But life forms can and do change over many generations, from one form to another. And as this process takes place within an environment on a planet, it makes sense that the life form would conform to best utilize the offerings of the environment.

So rather than looking at the bed of a puddle and being amazed at how well it conforms to the shape of the water therein, it is more correct to look at the water and note how well it conforms to the shape of the puddle.

So in this analogy;

The Water = Life Forms

The Puddle = The Environment or Planet
 
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ReverendDG

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When my second to the last child was born, she was blessed with a great curiosity about everything. She needed answers at a very young age and I knew that if I did not give her a chance to see both Creation and Evolution, I would have lost her to a world of strong, secular beliefs, and she may end up not being given an opportunity on a teaching bases; to learn about a Creation by God. I needed to show her side by side what each held for a foundation for life. I have worked at our local school for many years. I knew what she would be taught in school, so we took her to museums. We have both Evolution and Creation books on our book shelves in our home. We knew both Creation and Evolution would have their explanations based on their assumptions (prior to having knowledge which takes some faith.)
What do you mean presupposed? it wasn't secular scientists who decided that it would be impossible to have the features of the earth in only 6 thousand years as people believed, so it would have to be longer, it just kept getting longer as they found more evidence that the earth is old.

just like a lot of people you equate what people accept as true as faith, but they can find out what it is just like anyone else, faith in god is not the same as accepting an experts knowledge of his field
Evolutionists have certain beliefs about the past/present that they presuppose, which includes no God and
This not remotely true, we have tons of evidence showing the earth is old
Creationists base beliefs on the past/ present that they presuppose that include God.
And a lot of things on magic that has no basis
As I shared in another post, I had lived a life without God. I did not want to pass that on to my children. With Creation comes God, out of Creation may come Jesus Christ.

This not remotely true, you are just trying to make it so that anyone who doesn't accept what you do is not a christian, please show me were jesus or paul says that you ahve to believe genesis to be a christian, creationists really do presuppose things, namely that to be a christian you have to be a creationist
We found as a family it took a great amount of belief or faith to hold onto what was being shared in the museums and taught in our Evolution books.
This has nothing to do with god, this has to do with the bible, evolution and science shows the bible is wrong, not god, god could have done exactly as science shows through theorys
It took faith to believe in God, but if measured, it simply took a step of faith and trust by us and by our children. God does the rest.
God trusts that you would believe him dispite the fact that science shows the bible wrong, the bible is irrelevent.
The idea that particles turned into people over time, without any need for an intelligent designer I cannot accept.
The fact that your only argument is from being unable to accept it doesn't make the theories we have wrong, dispite your distortion of the theories in question
The ‘General Theory of Evolution’ is ‘the theory that all the living forms in the world have arisen from a single source which itself came from an inorganic form.’
No its not, this is a strawman of three related theories
It is my belief that only a gift as marvelous as new life, earth, and space - no matter what is understood by men, that it has to be intricately controlled and created by a Supreme Creator.

No one says you can't, faith is faith, it just doesn't remotely match reality
I cannot argue to an Evolutionist - Creation. But, I know Creation, because I know the Creator.

Deut. 4:29 says: ... if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find Him if you look for Him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Have you seen this DVD?


B0002E34C0.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg


Peace to you, Mickey

Do you really? i'm just asking, you trust the creater, then why don't you trust the creation?
do you think the creator would make something that would lie to you?
as i've been saying this has nothing to do with god, but a story in a book you have come to believe over everything else, sadly including god if you don't trust the evidence of his own creation

 
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Aron-Ra

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Do you really? i'm just asking, you trust the creater, then why don't you trust the creation?
do you think the creator would make something that would lie to you?
as i've been saying this has nothing to do with god, but a story in a book you have come to believe over everything else, sadly including god if you don't trust the evidence of his own creation
I once believed that God created fossils and such as a way of instructing his children about the distant past. Others described it thus; "Man wrote the books, but God wrote the rocks." But there is a fundamentalist Christian school where I live who's motto "stresses the Bible as the only source of truth in our world." Creationism is a form of idolatry; worshipping the words of men in the Bible, as though they were all the words of God; as though the Bible was like unto God himself, and shunning everything in creation as a "lie" -literally!
 
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Mickey1953

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Quoted from Beastt
"I hope I didn't interpret your question about his comment incorrectly but I'm thinking maybe you didn't quite see what it was he was trying to say. So since I'm familiar with this analogy, I'll attempt to offer some clarity. If I'm mistaken and you did understand what he was presenting, then I'll apologize and you can feel free to ignore the rest of this post."

Thank you for further explaining.... I did not understand what he was saying...

Mickey

 
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Mickey1953

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eavenn.gif



People have different opinions.
I found this diagram on this site. http://www.rtis.com/nat/user/elsberry/evobio/evc/ea.html
The C category is a bit complex, as indicated by the interactions with the other categories. It stands for Creation, where those in the category believe that a creator is responsible for the design of the universe and ultimately the source of all life. A Creation member can also be a member of any of the other named categories. If the creation member is also an Evolution member, it may mean that that person believes that their creator used the mechanisms identified by science as evolutionary mechanisms to produce the modern diversity of life. A Creation member who is also an Anti-Evolution member corresponds to what is termed a "Theistic Anti-Evolutionist" or TAE, whose Anti-Evolutionary stance stems from a belief that their creator did not use evolutionary mechanisms to produce the modern diversity of life. The Creation category is also inclusive of the Scripturalist category, whose members hold that Evolution must be false on the basis that their interpretation of some sacred text is both true and contradictory of some principle or principles in evolutionary biology. Some members of the Creation category are content with belief in a creator without coming to any decision concerning whether to accept or reject evolutionary explanations."

This is only part of this.... and there is more:
Oh my..... so many different beliefs/faith... and this is just a part....of beliefs. There is more. Just wanted to share them...
Mickey
 
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Mickey1953

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I have a little time before we leave.... We went skiing and I had to end my adventure early due to an old injury....

[FONT=&quot]I am humbly self-taught and I have limited Science. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]This is a simple writing on Creation and Evolution that I have stored in my computer….[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Darwinists
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In agreement[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Creationist[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Both agree this is an amazing world and universe.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]I believe in the beginning it was made for us….[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]
The word Evolution is used a lot[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Creationists say Evolutionists’ confuse the word -”One definition of evolution is given, and the others are assumed to be true by association.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And Evolutionists say Creationists confuse the word.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]

Definitions using the word Evolution:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Microevolution: Variations within kinds. [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]
Microevolution has been observed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Macro-evolution: changing from one kind into another, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]such as ape into man/woman.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Organic evolution – Origin of life from inanimate matter.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

Prebiotic Evolution: proposes that matter and energy and atmospheric conditions on Earth 3.5 billion years combined in such a way as to bring complex life-forms (cells) into existence.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

Cosmic Evolution: The origin of time, space and matter – the Big Bang. Also believed by some Creationist….(when discussing Young or Old Earth beliefs.) The difference for Evolutionists’ would be what the ‘Cause’ was…..[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Other Terms I have come across:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Spontaneous Generation: The Universe and everything in[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]it appeared by accident.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Spontaneous Generation: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Louis Pasteur refuted the theory of Spontaneous Generation,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but Darwinists theorize that it was possible at least 3.5 billion years ago, though it could not happen now.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]
The First[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] and Second Law [/FONT][FONT=&quot]of Thermodynamics[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]First Law: states that matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed…although they may be converted from one form to another…like ice to water, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Evolution credits this to the Big Bang[/FONT][FONT=&quot]- [/FONT][FONT=&quot]though others state it would be denying the most basic law of the universe:[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Something cannot come from nothing.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]
Second Law: Everything tends toward disorder….[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Creationist: Everything we observe in the universe verifies the laws of thermodynamics. [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]The universe is wearing down, not winding up.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]

Creation:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Fine tune Universe for life….. (Just a few)[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]
*Gravity[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]*Protons to electrons[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Expansion Rate[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Light[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Electromagnetic force[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Mass Density of the Universe[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Special Solar System[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]

Our Earth:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]*Tilt of the Earth[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Speed of the Earth[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Also the Earths’ ratio of reflected light/ to total [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]light falling on earth’s surface….[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]All very fined tune… any of these out of sink and [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]the earth would not be able to exist.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]
There is sooooo much more. Words and definitions….though I may be mistaken on some of my understandings. There is so much more, more then my brain and mind can grasp or understand. [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]

All my information are from books I have acquired, things I have learned in school and life. I was taught Evolution in school. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I lived with that and not being a Christian. (I am now.) [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Everything I believe has a counter claim of either opinion or supposed knowledge or belief - even among Creationist. I realize that now. [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]There are so many choices and everyone claims they are right. Every human being– no matter if it is a different belief or the same, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] has a belief. [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]And the debate will continue.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Some claims are reasonable. And some I do not accept. Someday we will die. And it will be as Evolutionists claim or something else. If it is as Evolution, and without Jesus Christ - it is over, not even empty….If it is as I believe, there is more…[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]

“One cannot be exposed to the law and order of the universe without concluding that there must be design and purpose behind it all…. To be forced to believe only one conclusion – that everything in the universe happened by chance – would violate the very objectivity of science itself…..”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dr. Wernher von Braun[/FONT] [FONT=&quot](Father of American rocket and space program)[/FONT]
 
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Sleeker

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Pretty colors! *Drools*


[FONT=&quot]Definitions using the word Evolution:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Microevolution: Variations within kinds. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Microevolution has been observed.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Macro-evolution: changing from one kind into another, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]such as ape into man/woman. [/FONT]

First, define "kind."

Secondly, microevolution and macroevolution are only different because of time. Microevolution + a lot of time = macroevolution.

[FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]Cosmic Evolution: The origin of time, space and matter – the Big Bang. Also believed by some Creationist….(when discussing Young or Old Earth beliefs.) The difference for Evolutionists’ would be what the ‘Cause’ was…..[/FONT]
[/FONT]​
Keep in mind that evolutionists only have to accept evolution, not the Big Bang or any other type of non-biological evolution. (Cosmic evolution would actually be what happened between the origin of space, time, and matter and now.)

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Other Terms I have come across:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Spontaneous Generation: The Universe and everything in[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]it appeared by accident.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Spontaneous Generation: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Louis Pasteur refuted the theory of Spontaneous Generation,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but Darwinists theorize that it was possible at least 3.5 billion years ago, though it could not happen now.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Spontaneous generation has nothing to do with the universe. It's only talking about rotten meat being transformed into maggots, grain being turned into mice, etc.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]The First[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and Second Law [/FONT][FONT=&quot]of Thermodynamics[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]First Law: states that matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed…although they may be converted from one form to another…like ice to water,[/FONT]
[/FONT]​
By "one form to another," it means kinetic energy to potential, heat turned into light, etc.
 
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Edx

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[FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]Definitions using the word Evolution:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Microevolution: Variations within kinds. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Microevolution has been observed.[/FONT]​
[/FONT]
Macroevolution is speciation, and that has been directly obsereved. Creationists definition of macroevolution on the otherhand is a strawman of something that evolution never proposed anyway.

[FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]Macro-evolution: changing from one kind into another, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]such as ape into man/woman. [/FONT]
[/FONT]​

"Such as" ape changing into man/woman? Is that like how mammals changed into man/woman?



[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Organic evolution – Origin of life from inanimate matter.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]​


[FONT=&quot]Prebiotic Evolution: proposes that matter and energy and atmospheric conditions on Earth 3.5 billion years combined in such a way as to bring complex life-forms (cells) into existence.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Cosmic Evolution: The origin of time, space and matter – the Big Bang. Also believed by some Creationist….(when discussing Young or Old Earth beliefs.) The difference for Evolutionists’ would be what the ‘Cause’ was…..[/FONT]​
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]


None of these are the "Theory of Evolution", they are simply using the word "evolution" to describe what happens.
Darwin didnt invent the word.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Other Terms I have come across:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Spontaneous Generation: The Universe and everything in[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]it appeared by accident.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Spontaneous Generation: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Louis Pasteur refuted the theory of Spontaneous Generation,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but Darwinists theorize that it was possible at least 3.5 billion years ago, though it could not happen now.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

Abiogenesis is not spontaneous generation, sorry.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]The First[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and Second Law [/FONT][FONT=&quot]of Thermodynamics[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]First Law: states that matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed…although they may be converted from one form to another…like ice to water, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Evolution credits this to the Big Bang[/FONT][FONT=&quot]- [/FONT][FONT=&quot]though others state it would be denying the most basic law of the universe:[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Something cannot come from nothing.[/FONT] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]Second Law: Everything tends toward disorder….[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Creationist: Everything we observe in the universe verifies the laws of thermodynamics. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The universe is wearing down, not winding up.[/FONT]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

You dont understand the 2nd Law, and you dont understand what a Law means.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]All my information are from books I have acquired, [/FONT]
[/FONT]

Tip 1: Dont learn about science from Creationists, they'll only teach you how to be wrong.​

[FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]I was taught Evolution in school. [/FONT]
[/FONT]

Clearly not very well.​
[FONT=&quot]“One cannot be exposed to the law and order of the universe without concluding that there must be design and purpose behind it all…. To be forced to believe only one conclusion – that everything in the universe happened by chance – would violate the very objectivity of science itself…..”[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Dr. Wernher von Braun[/FONT] [FONT=&quot](Father of American rocket and space program)[/FONT]

Not a biologist, and I doubt he is a cosmologist either.

Ed
 
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TheInstant

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[FONT=&quot]Darwinists[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]In agreement[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Creationist[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The word Evolution is used a lot[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Creationists say Evolutionists’ confuse the word -”One definition of evolution is given, and the others are assumed to be true by association.”[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]And Evolutionists say Creationists confuse the word.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Definitions using the word Evolution:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Microevolution: Variations within kinds. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Microevolution has been observed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Macro-evolution: changing from one kind into another, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]such as ape into man/woman. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Organic evolution – Origin of life from inanimate matter.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Prebiotic Evolution: proposes that matter and energy and atmospheric conditions on Earth 3.5 billion years combined in such a way as to bring complex life-forms (cells) into existence.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Cosmic Evolution: The origin of time, space and matter – the Big Bang. Also believed by some Creationist….(when discussing Young or Old Earth beliefs.) The difference for Evolutionists’ would be what the ‘Cause’ was…..[/FONT]​

I believe I can clear up the confusion on this - the Theory of Evolution refers only to biological evolution. Biological evolution requires life to be present in order to work. If life is not present, evolution cannot act on it.

[FONT=&quot]
Other Terms I have come across:
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Spontaneous Generation: The Universe and everything in[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]it appeared by accident.[/FONT]


I have never heard this definition of spontaneous generation. Spontaneous Generation refers to organisms sprouting fully formed from non-living things (such as flies appearing fully formed from rotting meat). This theory was shown to be wrong, and evolutionists do not support it.​


[FONT=&quot]
Spontaneous Generation:
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Louis Pasteur refuted the theory of Spontaneous Generation,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but Darwinists theorize that it was possible at least 3.5 billion years ago, though it could not happen now.[/FONT]



As I explained above, no they do not. If you are referring to your definition of spontaneous generation (the universe and everything in it appeared by accident), then that is not something that is addressed by evolution.​



[FONT=&quot]The First[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and Second Law [/FONT][FONT=&quot]of Thermodynamics[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]First Law: states that matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed…although they may be converted from one form to another…like ice to water, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Evolution credits this to the Big Bang[/FONT][FONT=&quot]- [/FONT]



Evolution has nothing to do with the Big Bang.

[FONT=&quot]
though others state it would be denying the most basic law of the universe:
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Something cannot come from nothing.[/FONT]

The Big Bang theory does not state that something came from nothing.

[FONT=&quot]
Second Law: Everything tends toward disorder….
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Creationist: Everything we observe in the universe verifies the laws of thermodynamics. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The universe is wearing down, not winding up.[/FONT]

Okay...​

[FONT=&quot]
Creation:
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Fine tune Universe for life….. (Just a few)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]*Gravity[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Protons to electrons[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Expansion Rate[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Light[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Electromagnetic force[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Mass Density of the Universe[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Special Solar System[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Our Earth:[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Tilt of the Earth[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Speed of the Earth[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Also the Earths’ ratio of reflected light/ to total [/FONT][FONT=&quot]light falling on earth’s surface….[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]All very fined tune… any of these out of sink and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the earth would not be able to exist.[/FONT]


The earth would not be able to exist, or life as we know it would not be able to exist?


[FONT=&quot]
There is sooooo much more. Words and definitions….though I may be mistaken on some of my understandings. There is so much more, more then my brain and mind can grasp or understand.
[/FONT]​



The problem with what you have quoted above is that virtually everything in red (attributed to "Darwinists") is not something someone who understands the Theory of Evolution would actually say. That's what happens when you try to get your knowledge of evolution from creationist sources.​


[FONT=&quot]
All my information are from books I have acquired, things I have learned in school and life. I was taught Evolution in school.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I lived with that and not being a Christian. (I am now.) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Everything I believe has a counter claim of either opinion or supposed knowledge or belief - even among Creationist. I realize that now. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]There are so many choices and everyone claims they are right. Every human being– no matter if it is a different belief or the same, [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]has a belief. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And the debate will continue.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Some claims are reasonable. And some I do not accept. Someday we will die. And it will be as Evolutionists claim or something else. If it is as Evolution, and without Jesus Christ - it is over, not even empty….If it is as I believe, there is more…[/FONT]



That's fine, but evolution is not atheism.


EDIT: I'm not sure what happened with the quote formatting, and now it won't change. Sorry.​
 
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Vainglorious

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Overall, I think you are trying to argue against atheism but you are shooting a lot of religious people with friendly fire.

[FONT=&quot]Darwinists[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In agreement[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Creationist[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Definitions using the word Evolution:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Microevolution: Variations within kinds. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Microevolution has been observed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Macro-evolution: changing from one kind into another, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]such as ape into man/woman.
[/FONT]

Incorrect. There is no scientific concept known as "kind". "Kind" is a word used mainly by Young Earth Creationists to deny evolution occurs and to fit whole ecosystems into Noah's Ark. Other than these two examples the word "kind" has no use.​

[FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]Organic evolution – Origin of life from inanimate matter.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Prebiotic Evolution: proposes that matter and energy and atmospheric conditions on Earth 3.5 billion years combined in such a way as to bring complex life-forms (cells) into existence.[/FONT]

[/FONT]
This is not Evolution Theory but abiogenesis. Are you aware you have called abiogensis both "organic" and "prebiotic" evolution?​

[FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]Cosmic Evolution: The origin of time, space and matter – the Big Bang. Also believed by some Creationist….(when discussing Young or Old Earth beliefs.) The difference for Evolutionists’ would be what the ‘Cause’ was…..[/FONT]
[/FONT]
Again, this is not Evolution Theory. Did you get this list of "evolutions" from Kent Hovind?​

[FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]Other Terms I have come across:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Spontaneous Generation: The Universe and everything in[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]it appeared by accident.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

Not only isn't that Spontaneous Generation, nobody can declare if the Universe is an accident or not.

[FONT=&quot]Spontaneous Generation: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Louis Pasteur refuted the theory of Spontaneous Generation,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] but Darwinists theorize that it was possible at least 3.5 billion years ago, though it could not happen now.[/FONT]

Pasteur disproved the concept that mice grew from flour. His experiments had little relevance to the concept of organic molecules forming replicating systems.​



[FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]The First[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and Second Law [/FONT][FONT=&quot]of Thermodynamics[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]First Law: states that matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed…although they may be converted from one form to another…like ice to water, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Evolution credits this to the Big Bang[/FONT][FONT=&quot]- [/FONT][FONT=&quot]though others state it would be denying the most basic law of the universe:[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Something cannot come from nothing.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
This is not Evolution Theory. Nobody says the Universe came from pure nothing. The concept of 'nothing' arises because there is no space/time for the existance of 'stuff' as we know it or the process of causality.​



[FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]Second Law: Everything tends toward disorder….[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Creationist: Everything we observe in the universe verifies the laws of thermodynamics. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The universe is wearing down, not winding up.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
I'll let it slide that this is not an accurate description of the 2nd Law, however, what is the relevance to Evolution Theory? Life creates internal 'order' at the expense of external 'disorder'. Evolution Theory is fully compatible with the 2nd Law.​

[FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]Creation:[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Fine tune Universe for life….. (Just a few)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]*Gravity[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Protons to electrons[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Expansion Rate[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Light[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Electromagnetic force[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Mass Density of the Universe[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Special Solar System[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Our Earth:[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Tilt of the Earth[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Speed of the Earth[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]*Also the Earths’ ratio of reflected light/ to total [/FONT][FONT=&quot]light falling on earth’s surface….[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]All very fined tune… any of these out of sink and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the earth would not be able to exist.[/FONT]

[/FONT]
This is a philosophical position known as the Strong Anthropic Principle. All of these 'fine tunings" are only relevant if the assumption is made the sole purpose of the Universe was to reach this point.​
[FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot] If it is as Evolution, and without Jesus Christ - it is over, not even empty….If it is as I believe, there is more…[/FONT]
[/FONT]​

I'm not a Christian but I can say with certainty there are many Christians who disagree with that position.


[FONT=&quot]
[FONT=&quot]“One cannot be exposed to the law and order of the universe without concluding that there must be design and purpose behind it all…. To be forced to believe only one conclusion – that everything in the universe happened by chance – would violate the very objectivity of science itself…..”[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Dr. Wernher von Braun[/FONT] [FONT=&quot](Father of American rocket and space program)[/FONT]
[/FONT]

And this contradicts Evolution Theory in what way?

 
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Mickey1953

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"Overall, I think you are trying to argue against atheism but you are shooting a lot of religious people with friendly fire."
Quoted by Vainglorious

I apoligize... that was not my intent. The one site caught my attention. I shared it for information only, not to "shoot a lot of religious people people with friendly fire..." If it came across as such, please accept my apoligy. Also with the way I believe.... it is my belief..respectfully amongst so many....
Mickey
 
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Mickey1953

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I am having trouble with my computer.....I will try again....

"Overall, I think you are trying to argue against atheism but you are shooting a lot of religious people with friendly fire."
Quoted by Vainglorious

I apologize... that was not my intent. The one site caught my attention. I shared it for information only, not to "shoot a lot of religious people with friendly fire..." If it came across as such, please accept my apology. Also with the way I believe.... it is my belief, respectfully amongst so many.
Mickey

Also, my intent with anyone, is to agree to disagree, not to be offensive....
 
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