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It's a thought exercise on our own beliefs on the nature of salvation itself, with complicating factors. To think about our doctrines. Not to pass judgements.Why are we speculating upon the salvation of others ???
Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just ?
What I was getting at is that there is no end to the depth of, for example, exactly what happened when Christ paid our sin; what exactly did he do, how did he do it? Or, how is it possible that we are not what we were made for, until we are one with Christ --I mean, what does that even mean?Considering few address the Gospel of the Kingdom.. Jesus' gospel.. then no.
He didn't sin, so as in the old testament sacrifices, that all represented His future sacrifice, he was a lamb without blemish, and His blood was spilled, just like the way the OT sacrifices you have to spill and sprinkle the animal's blood. Blood atones for sin, the blood of something pure, cleanses the unclean. Blood represents life, and the punishment for sin is death, life for life.What I was getting at is that there is no end to the depth of, for example, exactly what happened when Christ paid our sin; what exactly did he do, how did he do it? Or, how is it possible that we are not what we were made for, until we are one with Christ --I mean, what does that even mean?
For the following people, please specify if you think they are saved or not and what leads you to think so. Also please indicate if you believe in single or double predestination or not.
1. A miscarried baby
2. A 5 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
3. A 15 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
4. A Christian who develops Alzheimer's or other dementia, rejects that they were ever a believer and passes away
5. A Christian who injures their brain, suffers permanent amnesia, forgets they were ever a Christian, dying many years later having never remembered
6. A person with split personality where one personality identifies as Christian and the other rejects Christianity
7. A Christian who drinks too much one day, while drunk rejects their faith and is killed in an accident before they can remember and repent
I know all the words. I've been around it all my life. But the older I get the more I see there is to learn. I get a certain sense of it, of course, but the depth! I'm pretty sure when we get there we will feel like we had no clue all this time.He didn't sin, so as in the old testament sacrifices, that all represented His future sacrifice, he was a lamb without blemish, and His blood was spilled, just like the way the OT sacrifices you have to spill and sprinkle the animal's blood. Blood atones for sin, the blood of something pure, cleanses the unclean. Blood represents life, and the punishment for sin is death, life for life.
I think the verse from David is pretty good on that too, I mean we DO believe David was an old testament saint and is in heaven right now right? If David's words in scripture are divinely inspired, and David felt comforted that he would one day go to his son (and that he would be going to heaven) then I think that lends itself to the innocence of young children in God's eyes.
A person who has (at some point in their life before death) trusted in Jesus for the free gift of Eternal Life is saved and has Eternal Life.
As for a person before the age of accountability (really what ever that means), like what God judged the Israelite's who sinned in Numbers 14, God judged everyone 20 years and above. So would that age 19 and below apply to salvation the Bible does not say.
AgreeI know all the words. I've been around it all my life. But the older I get the more I see there is to learn. I get a certain sense of it, of course, but the depth! I'm pretty sure when we get there we will feel like we had no clue all this time.
I get that but my belief and what scripture seems to support is that eternal punishment is only for the sins that you personally commit. A baby doesn't commit sins, so why would it be condemned? Adults are condemned because we commit sin. Some people try to reach out and say that an "innocent tribesman" on say the Sentinel Islands shouldn't be condemned because they never heard the Gospel so they never had a chance to be saved. But they are condemned because they are living in sin, there is no such thing as an "innocent tribesman". When a missionary tried to contact them they murdered him, they've shown hostility to anyone who tried to contact them. We don't know about their religion or worship but I'm 99.99% sure it isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and has nothing to do with Jesus Christ, so likely they have other Gods. So when final judgement came, you'd see the condemnation of people who worshiped idols and devils, who murdered anyone who tried to come to them in friendship, much less preach them the gospel, and you'd think "that's a just punishment"that’s definitely a legit interpretation.
I don’t necessarily think that everything said by Old Testament authors is meant to be interpreted as theological doctrine in this way. For example, psalm 88 the psalmist is angry and says things like God abandoned him etc but this is not to be taken as a statement of truth. Another possible explanation would be go to him, as in die, more carrying the point he was trying to make that he can’t raise his son through fasting, instead of a theological assertion of the existence of an age of accountability and his own salvation. I actually believe in the concept of grace period however it sometimes feels the idea is more about what people think is “fair” which is not relevant. God isn’t a fair God he’s a just God, and he would be completely justified in allowing any person who doesn’t hear and accept the gospel to parish in their sins, because the wages of sin is death. That’s more the point, God doesn’t owe anyone grace, not even children, and I have two little ones so I’m not just talking about nonsense it’s important to me to find biblical support for this one.
So what are you getting at here, are you thinking along the lines of us living vicariously "through" Jesus Christ or something? Some sort of eastern religion "become one with everything"? Cause Scripture says we get resurrected into new bodies so I don't think it's going to be some sort of eastern singular existence thing, makes me think of the NGE anime I saw where that's what they did is make all humans disintigrate into some orange fluid like tang and merged all their consciousnesses together. It was weird. It's no wonder the main character rejected that existence.I know all the words. I've been around it all my life. But the older I get the more I see there is to learn. I get a certain sense of it, of course, but the depth! I'm pretty sure when we get there we will feel like we had no clue all this time.
as for thinking the Lord doesn't punish the flesh for transgressions after being saved, that's just not biblical.
Why every son? Because we all sin, even after being saved.
Paul is trying to reassure people that if bad things are happening in their life, it's not because God doesn't love them, or God doesn't care about them, or they're not truly saved. Paul is telling them quite the opposite, that because they're dealing with these afflictions and negative things happening in their life, that God is correcting them, disciplining them for sin.
That disciplining over bad behavior can be a comfort because hey, at least you know God is with you. But that said, it should be a correcting action, it should make you examine your deeds and think "am I walking contrary to God, am I EARNING stripes?" if so, well, you don't want to earn more stripes do you?
I get that but my belief and what scripture seems to support is that eternal punishment is only for the sins that you personally commit. A baby doesn't commit sins, so why would it be condemned?
I said illness can be chastisement from the Lord, not necessarily are. They can be biologically caused, or in some cases, such as the blind man in the gospels that Jesus heals, they're afflicted so that God's glory might be shown in them.Yet babies can be born with illnesses or disabilities - which, according to you, are punishment, or correction, from God for sin.
I think you may have just disproved your own argument.
I said illness can be chastisement from the Lord, not necessarily are.
If you want to explain another meaning to Hebrews 12, by all means.
Then I think that you have to factor in God's intent ... which is pretty clear in the scriptures.It's a thought exercise on our own beliefs on the nature of salvation itself, with complicating factors. To think about our doctrines. Not to pass judgements.
Grace is grace, works is works. If you have works involved it's no longer grace. You don't work for a gift, a gift is undeserved, unearned. Works are something you should do anyway, obedience to the law is something you should do anyway, out of love, but it's not what saves us.
So ... given that you began the christian walk in the spirit, ... and you going to keep it in the flesh (i.e. by works of responsibility) ?But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."
Grace is grace, works is works. If you have works involved it's no longer grace. You don't work for a gift, a gift is undeserved, unearned. Works are something you should do anyway, obedience to the law is something you should do anyway, out of love, but it's not what saves us.
Grace is grace, works is works. If you have works involved it's no longer grace. You don't work for a gift, a gift is undeserved, unearned. Works are something you should do anyway, obedience to the law is something you should do anyway, out of love, but it's not what saves us.
Romans 11:6 And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.Grace is grace, works is works. If you have works involved it's no longer grace. You don't work for a gift, a gift is undeserved, unearned. Works are something you should do anyway, obedience to the law is something you should do anyway, out of love, but it's not what saves us. We're saved because of a substitution, Jesus Christ for us. That's Grace. You have to put your whole faith that Jesus' finished work on the Cross is what is saving you, and nothing you could have done personally would save you. You have to have faith as if you did absolutely nothing else, just put your future entirely in the hands of Jesus and freefall for Him to catch you. Then do works and obey the law why? Because you think if you don't Jesus won't catch you? That's not putting faith in Jesus. No, you obey the law and do works because you love God and want to serve Him. Some people, are very limited in what works they can do. I'm a cripple, most days, I can't walk more than a dozen feet or so. I don't have a wheelchair either. So what works am I going to do?
I HAVE to place my entire faith in Jesus, because I have no faith in myself to be able to do things to please God. If it were my deeds that earned my way into God's presence, I'd be doomed.
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