Which of the following people are saved?

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 24, 2020

" 2. (Pro 2:12-15) Wisdom rescues us from wicked men.

To deliver you from the way of evil,
From the man who speaks perverse things,
From those who leave the paths of uprightness
To walk in the ways of darkness;
Who rejoice in doing evil,
And delight in the perversity of the wicked;
Whose ways are crooked,
And who are devious in their paths;

a. To deliver you from the way of evil: Wisdom will keep us from going evil ways, and from associating with the man who speaks perverse things. Our fallen nature may be attracted to perverse things, but wisdom will guard us from that path, from those who leave the paths of righteousness."

Study Guide for Proverbs 2 by David Guzik

Bible Highlighter · Jan 24, 2020

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Are you re-defining "ways" ?

The sins of a righteous man are disclosed in Scripture without prejudice by Yahweh,
but that does not make the righteous man's "ways" sinful....

Overall, David was a man after God’s own heart. But he was not righteous during the times that he sinned. But he was able to seek God’s forgiveness and be forgiven and no longer continue to do things like murder and adultery.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 24, 2020

yeshuaslavejeff said:
" 2. (Pro 2:12-15) Wisdom rescues us from wicked men.

To deliver you from the way of evil,
From the man who speaks perverse things,
From those who leave the paths of uprightness
To walk in the ways of darkness;
Who rejoice in doing evil,
And delight in the perversity of the wicked;
Whose ways are crooked,
And who are devious in their paths;

a. To deliver you from the way of evil: Wisdom will keep us from going evil ways, and from associating with the man who speaks perverse things. Our fallen nature may be attracted to perverse things, but wisdom will guard us from that path, from those who leave the paths of righteousness."

Study Guide for Proverbs 2 by David Guzik

Yes, I believe there are differences between David and the extremely wicked that the Bible talks about. But the free will gift of salvation is for all. The wicked do not have to be wicked. They can come to Jesus and have a new heart with new desires. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that that there those who perish because they receive not the love of the truth. This means that they are capable of doing so, but simply they choose not to. God knows ultimately who will repent and who will not repent in the end. Things are not always what they seem. Even those who appear to justify evil or sin now have the hope in receiving the love of the truth.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 24, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
have the hope in receiving the love of the truth.

A nitpicking technicality here: (fwiw): "they" , the wicked, might themselves have no hope at all, but yet yes, there is hope for them, as Christ Jesus came to save the unrighteous (all of us!) ..... sometimes it seems that proud people, when they finally "give up" and think there's no way they can be helped or no way they can find help, SURPRISE! Salvation comes - a surprise to them.... (it was once a big SURPRISE! to me, btw) .... Life unexpected, unhoped for, undeserved reality of blessing in Jesus from the Father in heaven, in line with all of His Word, His Plan, His Purpose, and His Revelation of Truth.

Jamdoc · Jan 24, 2020

yeshuaslavejeff said:
QUOTE="Jamdoc, post: 74664732, member: 423546"]I think this is pointless. Works salvation people are always going to just think that way. 2 Corinthians 7:1 is not telling you that this is what you do to get saved, you have to understand the context, which in this case, is telling the church at Corinth to separate themselves from non believers, don't fellowship with those who don't believe in Christ.
The last thing I will point out to you, is how do you know you're going to the resurrection of life? How many works is enough? How many times can you sin and still be forgiven? Or is one sin after you've accepted Christ as your savior it? Cause Christ only died once and will only ever die once, so if his blood only justifies you once for your past sins and its your works that justify you after that, you're in trouble.
You're a sinner, just like everyone else.[/QUOTE
=========================================================
Who said that ? > "works justify you after that" ?

Kindly quote the post where anyone said that, thanks.

It's been the gist of Bible Highlighter's posts is that Christ's blood only forgives past sins and afterwards to remain saved you have to live a sinless life and do works.

timothyu · Jan 24, 2020

Jamdoc said:
you have to live a sinless life and do works.

Nobody can lead a sinless life. Every day some one will put their will before God's. But we can hate who we are for our incompetence in following God's will.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 24, 2020

Jamdoc said:
It's been the gist of Bible Highlighter's posts is that Christ's blood only forgives past sins and afterwards to remain saved you have to live a sinless life and do works.

I don't agree nor think so, and you did not answer the question with ANY evidence at all...
if he did what you say then as I said in the post you replied to without replying >>

"Who said that ? > "works justify you after that" ?

Kindly quote the post where anyone said that, thanks."

Jamdoc · Jan 24, 2020

yeshuaslavejeff said:
I don't agree nor think so, and you did not answer the question with ANY evidence at all...
if he did what you say then as I said in the post you replied to without replying >>

"Who said that ? > "works justify you after that" ?

Kindly quote the post where anyone said that, thanks."

You'd have to read all of BibleHighlighter's posts, and they are very very long. He has an entire thread about how you only have the holy spirit if you're doing works and leading a sinless life and when you sin the holy spirit leaves you.
The Holy Spirit dwells only in obedient believers

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 24, 2020

Jamdoc said:
You'd have to read all of BibleHighlighter's posts, and they are very very long. He has an entire thread about how you only have the holy spirit if you're doing works and leading a sinless life and when you sin the holy spirit leaves you.
The Holy Spirit dwells only in obedient believers

No.
That is not satisfactory. (for this point).

I have read posts if not all that thread. No where did he say that only by leading a sinless life can someone be saved. And neither you nor anyone else so far has quoted him nor anyone else saying so - as if to rely on works or as if to rely on a sinless life, or even as if to rely on one's self to be saved, no, it is not seen in his posts.

Thus perhaps there is a false witness being born against him, so far as can be seen today ?

Oh, like others, he might have some things wrong.... but so far, you have not shown what you claimed anywhere.

Jamdoc · Jan 24, 2020

yeshuaslavejeff said:
No.
That is not satisfactory. (for this point).

I have read posts if not all that thread. No where did he say that only by leading a sinless life can someone be saved. And neither you nor anyone else so far has quoted him nor anyone else saying so - as if to rely on works or as if to rely on a sinless life, or even as if to rely on one's self to be saved, no, it is not seen in his posts.

Thus perhaps there is a false witness being born against him, so far as can be seen today ?

Oh, like others, he might have some things wrong.... but so far, you have not shown what you claimed anywhere.

Okay if he says it's the holy spirit that saves you but you only have the holy spirit if you're not sinning and doing works, then what's he saying is saving you?
In other words, if you say it's grace that saves you but you have to earn that grace through leading a sinless life and doing works, that's no longer grace.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 24, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Okay if he says it's the holy spirit that saves you but you only have the holy spirit if you're not sinning and doing works, then what's he saying is saving you?
In other words, if you say it's grace that saves you but you have to earn that grace through leading a sinless life and doing works, that's no longer grace.

You are still making claims without evidence at all - thus the potential for bearing false witness unless the claims can be backed up and shown WITH A QUOTE...

timothyu · Jan 24, 2020

Jamdoc said:
In other words, if you say it's grace that saves you but you have to earn that grace through leading a sinless life and doing works, that's no longer grace.

Grace didn't give us freedom from sin, but rather the Kingdom of God. The Gospel of the Kingdom. If we accept that over our own will and governance (repenting of the idea our will is better than God's), like the oppressed of old,we will have a chance to put our wishes into action when the Kingdom (governance) of God returns. In the meantime we should strive to follow the governance/will of God in contrast to following the traditional self serving will of man to show we believe God's way is better ( to both God and others).

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 24, 2020

timothyu said:
we will have a chance to put our wishes into action when the Kingdom (governance) of God returns.

No. That doesn't work, and is not what God's Will, Purpose and Word Says.
We don't get to put "our wishes" that way into action at all - Yahweh is Sovereign and says otherwise, constantly, in perfect wisdom and perfect harmony with all of His Word.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Always, not just in the meantime, abide in Jesus , being always in all things subject to Him as written. Never should we hope nor seek again to follow anyone other than the Good Shepherd, perhaps especially not our traditional self serving which had to and has to be repented of any and every time it happens.

timothyu said:
In the meantime we should strive to follow the governance/will of God in contrast to following the traditional self serving will of man.

timothyu · Jan 24, 2020

yeshuaslavejeff said:
We don't get to put "our wishes" that way into action at all - Yahweh is Sovereign and says otherwise, constantly, in perfect wisdom and perfect harmony with all of His Word.

Our wishes should be that His will be done.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 24, 2020

timothyu said:
Our wishes should be that His will be done.

That is entirely different than "getting our own wishes" , to me, the way it was first put.
When we receive and have the mind /attitude/ of Christ as written in Scripture, then yes, we desire only what the Father desires (perhaps though, even what He permits ) us to desire in perfect harmony with all of His Word and His Will, completely freely, willingly and joyously and righteously , as written.

Jamdoc · Jan 24, 2020

yeshuaslavejeff said:
You are still making claims without evidence at all - thus the potential for bearing false witness unless the claims can be backed up and shown WITH A QUOTE...

I gave you an entire thread.

Bible Highlighter said:
After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

Bible Highlighter said:
James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
Can a dead faith save anyone?
James says even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).
So James is comparing a belief alone kind of faith to that of demons.
So this is not good to have that kind of faith.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 24, 2020

Jamdoc said:
I gave you an entire thread.

So ?
The quotes you yourself now provided are Scripture.
Not contradicting Yahweh's Word at all - rather confirming/ part of/ in harmony with all of Yahweh's Word.

Jamdoc · Jan 24, 2020

yeshuaslavejeff said:
So ?
The quotes you yourself now provided are Scripture.
Not contradicting Yahweh's Word at all - rather confirming/ part of/ in harmony with all of Yahweh's Word.

and Romans 4:5 is also scripture. Ephesians 2:8-9 are also scripture. James can't contradict Paul. James also can't contradict Jesus, who said in John 6:28-29 that the "work" of God was to believe on Him who He hath sent. That was IT, that was the only works that Jesus said.
How do we reconcile this?
Obviously it will have to depend on interpretations because on the surface they appear to be saying contradicting things.
But they aren't contradicting, because the book of James is addressed to the saved, he refers to them over and over as "Bretheren". That is, bretheren in Christ, Christians, people who are already saved from condemnation in hell.
Again I offer Hebrews 12 and 1 Corinthians 5, which talk about the flesh being punished for sin but the soul still being with God.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 24, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Obviously it will have to depend on interpretations because on the surface they appear to be saying contradicting things.

Jamdoc said:
But they aren't contradicting, because

Contradicting ?

Still no quote showing someone claiming what you claimed, even with the quotes you provided which turn out to be Scripture, not contradicting Scripture as you claimed.

Jamdoc · Jan 24, 2020

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Contradicting ?

Still no quote showing someone claiming what you claimed, even with the quotes you provided which turn out to be Scripture, not contradicting Scripture as you claimed.

His quotes were an interpretation of those scriptures that to be saved you have to do works.

Which of the following people are saved?

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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