which is more wise...

[Yamialpha]

I've experienced the same situation. First you should pursue the answer by yourself (prayer, reading the Bible, research). If this doesn't succeed, then ask someone who is well-founded in their faith (i.e. pastor).I will pray for you and your situation.

 

[12volt_man]

A christian falls from faith because of a question they stumble on. Should the fallen bring up that uncertainty to christians in order to seek help? It could potentially harm their faith. Which then is more wise, to remain in doubt or to potentially lead another into that same uncertainty?

Ideas are contagious things.

What is the Body of Christ for if not to encourage and support one another?

It's okay to ask questions. God's big enough to handle our doubts.

 

[Mustaphile]

Ultimately, i think we should grow to serve not to pad our own thrones.

This is what I am attempting to work on at the moment. I'm not always to succesful, but I'm trying.

I need more direction in which to find alternative approaches. If you have any sources lay them on me!

The one thing I like about the CF forums is the diversity of opinion. Within this forum you will find the whole spectrum of belief and understanding in mainstream christendom (and even some outside of it). I would encourage you to explore the forums that fall under the 'Congregation' banner. There you will find insights from all the different denominations represented in this forum. I have found things of interest in them all. It's an incredible resource really. I tend towards the liberal side of christianity myself, I feel its in my nature to be like that and it's where God wants me to be. I have an affinity with their beliefs and the way they approach scripture.

It doesn't upset me or hinder my faith so much as perturb me that my perceptions could be so clouded and limiting.

With a questioning mind like yours, I don't think that feeling will ever really go away. I imagine you will be perfecting your ideas until the day you finally get to sit in front of God and ask him to fill in the blanks. I'm a bit the same way, of course. My own method of coming to terms with this problem was to look at the life of Jesus, and to try and relate that to how I should live. I came to the conclusion that part of what Jesus was telling us that the truth is written in our hearts and we should be true to ourselves. I also think that each individual is given a life that is a unique expression of God's purpose and will. The answer for me was to live life true to myself and know the person the God created and use the specific talents he has given me and in doing so I would be doing what God made me to do. To summarise that I would say, be true to yourself and be yourself. You are you for a reason. You have certain traits that make you uniquely you, and those are the things that God wants you to use. Your questioning mind would be one of those talents, would you agree? I would think its important for you to find out how to use that to give glory to God and I am sure you will.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Whitehorse, i understand that my limited ability to understand God doesn't have anything to do with whether or how God actually exists. In fact, reason has little to do with faith in whole. The heart of Christianity lies in the simple message of love and grace. Unfortunately that message lies buried beneath layers and layers of dogma and is subject to scholarly interpretations and turning people bitterly away. The problem lies in knowing truth when you see it.

Well, the key is to know what happens in the human mind that creates error. Here are the two biggest mistakes people make in interpreting scripture:

1. Many people read the Bible for what they want it to say, not to see what it says. They have a personal perspective and want to see what's in the Bible that might be construed to mean what they want it to. This can be uprooted by getting very familiar with scripture, which takes a long time, but is worth it. Many scriptures have a qualifier somewhere else in the Bible.

2. Context and historical occasion are everything. The Bible cannot mean what it has never meant, and most scriptures have an occasion, or something specific that God was addressing through His servants. Knowing this will put scripture into perspective. Also reading a text in context with the rest of the text is a good way to get the real meaning out of it.

 

[issa]

ask a mature believer

 

[carmi]

If love were dependant on actions, no infant in this world would be loved. There is nothing more physically demanding, more emotionally taxing and less rewarding than motherhood. Yet the mother's love is unconditional despite the fact the baby has done nothing to deserve it but simply exist. How much greated is Gods love for us. (all of us)[/size][/size][/size]

If i gave my son the choice and he turned on me when i offered him help. If i could have stepped in and pushed him clear of the truck but didn't. Would i simply stop loving him and leave him to suffer the rest of his life alone because of it? nope. First, I'd feel incredibly guilty! I wouldn't abandon him forever simply because he was being careless and crude. My love for him isn't that shallow and restrained. Surely having created us God must understand our shortcomings. Surely having sent Jesus he must understand forgiveness without boudries better than I. How is it possible then that his children still die?

God's children don't die (God stepped in, He sent His Son). Paul is very careful about that, he does not say concerning them which are dead, he speaks of them that are asleep.

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

Jesus died but He did not stay dead. He is risen and alive. He is "the firstborn among many brethren." (Rom. 8:29) He is "the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature." (Col. 1:15)

I have yet to experience any boundaries in God's forgiveness and I can honestly say I have tried my worst to find out the limits. During His last moments He asked God to forgive them. I hope I will never have to find out, be tested whether I am able to forgive in similar circumstances.

Death is not something frightful, not when your spirit is alive:

"1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" (1 cor. 15:55)

God's forgiveness and love is so great that nothing can separate us from Him:

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom. 8:38,39)

God wants His children to be with Him. I don't have children myself, but I do know parents who want their children to return home at a certain time (and the kids are not always in agreement, they would rather stay longer at the party, watch another movie with a friend, etc.). They are not always that keen to go home and spend quality, family time with their parents.

[/size][/font]You want God to force you to love Him and do what He knows is best for you? Do you want him to railroad you into heaven? (pun intended). What kind of love would that be, if it is forced upon an indivudual?

Do what's best for me? Yes. I do. Force me to love him? Can one stand in God's presence and NOT love him for saving us even if it had been agaisnt our will?

When i told my daughter at the age of 2 not to put her hand on the stove, consiquently igniting her nightgown, she yelled at me. She not only yelled but she kicked and screamed and beat on me. She even said she hated me for doing stuff like that on several occasions. Todlers do that. So then, did I pull her to safety FOR love or OUT of love? Would i tell her she has to love me because i saved her silly little tail from 3rd degree burns? Nope. I could care less. I just wanted her to be safe because i love her. To love or to be loved?

God does not safe you against your will. I did not get up one morning and got the message: you are safed now, you are in My hands. you can throw a temper but I will take you to heaven any day I feel convenient/necessary.

God did not ask any of us for permission to sent His Son and have Him die for us. He just did it. Jesus is standing at the door and knocks - you don't have to open the door. If you do, He will be with you. If you don't, He does not kill you right there, right then. Eventually both - those that open their door and receive Him and those that don't will die. But those who have opened their door and let Him in, will be with Him and alive.

God does not force us to love Him. Many people don't love Him, don't believe in Him. And they all live and they do live pretty well. Often they have a better life then those who do love Him and believe in Him. And would you want to have over those kids who hate you? Who mistreat, despise your child - the child you love? To what purpose? So that the enmity continues? And we keep discussing whether God is love and whether He is just for all eternity in heaven?

God is not in the emotional blackmail business. He gave His Son, He did not pull Him out of a dangerous situation, He let Him hang there (literally). But He does not safe you against your will, that is your decision. You can take it or leave it. And He did this out of love. I cannot love God back the way and to the extent He does. I am still alive and rather well, although I had a long period of time where I did not want to have anything to do with Him, where I went on a distance, where I clearly loved someone else. I lived through that and slept well.

Until I started missing Him. Until I felt so heartbroken that my love for this man was not returned and how sorrowful that made me feel ... and then the thought crossed my mind: yea, well ... isn't that how God must feel by now? And I did not even give up my only child for that man. I did not have to see my own child suffer trials, whippings, insults, immense torture, so that man could be well.

All I did was spent a few years hoping to be with that man, that he would return my love. He does not. And of late, I don't mind. I don't insist that he loves me and marries me. All I want is that I will see him again and not have to lose sight of him. Of course, I would be dishonest if I were to deny that I have deep down the hope that this man will be saved and that God somehow rearranges things so that I am not in a different country anymore and that He will bring us together. But given the choice, I am willing to give him up, or the hope of being with him, being loved by him ...

It took me a long time to get to this point, and it was not an easy process ... but as imperfect humans are and as imperfect our love is, we are capable of making a choice between to love and to be loved. But just because I have to struggle in this matter and just because I can't live up to my choice (to love instead of being loved) 100 % does not mean that God has the same difficulties.

It was Him in the first place who taught me about this kind of love, His love. He loved me when I did not He existed, He loved me before I accepted Him, He loved me when I left Him and wondered away, He loved me when I came back (and came back hesitantly), He loves me even though He knows that I am thinking more of this man than of Him, He loved me even though I did not even want to talk to Him, did not want to hear from Him.

When I go home to be with Him, my report card won't be anything to be proud of and I won't be very anxious to show it to Him, but I know He still loves me.

I walked out of Him, turned aside and He did not bother during that time. Nothing bad happened to me. He just waited a couple of years until I was turning to Him again. And I hesitated weeks to "contact" Him - I was postponing that meeting. But in the end I did.

I believe that God could have at any time, any given moment forced me to my knees. In another matter which had nothing to do with love and where my love for Him was not in question, He actually did. This time He did not. He did not interfere, He waited. While I was wishing for that man to take notice of me (that would have been a good start!) and being unhappy about not having this wish fulfilled, being angry at God (I have no doubt in my mind He could have made arrangements) about it ... God was waiting for me to take notice of Him, God - but not being angry.

God wants me to be save because He loves me, God wants all of us to be saved becaue He loves us ... but He knows that love requires choice, not force. I cannot be with a man unless I accept him, I cannot be with God unless I accept His Son. Take Rebekah for example, "And they called Rebekah, and said unto her, Wilt thou go with this man? And she said, I will go." (Gen. 24:58). Rebekah was asked, she could choose whether to go to be married to Isaac or not. Nobody forced her. Yes, the servant gave presents to her and to her family but I don't read anywhere (not in that passage or in any other place) that Rebekah was told: Look, I got you this and this. I came all the way just to get you out of here. No, all she had to do was answer a simple question. Without her acceptence of Isaac, she would not have become his bride, she would not have been with him.

 

[carmi]

Isn't it better to pray for others in need than to praddle on about your own salvation? After all, even your salvation God's to handle and not up to you to decide or influence. Ultimately, i think we should grow to serve not to pad our own thrones.

You sound not too happy about salvation - you make it sound as if it was done to you against your will. At the same time you see the need and the importance that we must remember those who are not yet saved and pray for them. While I ask God to save this man and I believe that God can save this man, I know God does not do me the favor of stopping the guy in his tracks and catapult him to heaven and keep him there (bound hand and foot). God does not love as this one woman in a novel (by Stephen King?) who takes a man into her house, takes care of him, but does not want to let him go and does all kind of things to prevent the man from leaving - even if it means to chop of his legs.

Technically I might succeed in kidnapping this guy and holding him prisoner in my house. The problem would not be so much in the fact that he does not love me, the problem would be that he would resent my love and resent me for loving him that way, demonstrating my love for him in that way.

As pathetic as it may sound: salvation is all I got. I don't know exactly what you mean by "praddle" about our salvation. Paul admonishes us to "rejoice in the Lord alway: and again i say, Rejoice." (Phil. 3:1) It's one thing to keep quiet when someone loves but you don't know - but once you know how that Someone loves you and you comprehend the depth, width and height of His love - it makes you joyful because all your fear and dread is gone. Rejoicing in one's salvation is not the same as, is not compared to being gleeful and chuckling when you manage to avoid a puddle or a banana peel but the person next to you steps right in and gets all muddled or slips and trips and lands on his back.

If I want someone to share this joy, if I want someone to be saved - it does help if he/she knows how good that feels (it's not the same as telling him/her or good I am and it is possible to be as good as I am so that God will accept him/her as well. It's not how good I am now and all the good things I am doing). Sitting there with a sour face, feeling sorry for myself because I got saved and now I end up in heaven, would be very detrimental. Especially since someone (don't know who) spread the rumor that being a believer means leading a boring life.

And you do seem to have problems accepting the fact we physically die. And the prospect of "having" to spend eternity with God and others in heaven is not a joyful one for you.

 

[GrayArea]

Mustaphile:
With a questioning mind like yours, I don't think that feeling will ever really go away. I imagine you will be perfecting your ideas until the day you finally get to sit in front of God and ask him to fill in the blanks. I'm a bit the same way, of course.

Lol..ain't that the truth. It's not so much perfecting my thoughts so much as Edison-like attempt to try everything until something "sparks".

You have certain traits that make you uniquely you, and those are the things that God wants you to use. Your questioning mind would be one of those talents, would you agree?

Now that's a new one! I've been told i'm stubborn, a hindrence, even the 'water God spit out' but not talented! lol.. I do hope you're correct though, i have little hope at changing how i think. What i think, sure.

 

[GrayArea]

Whitehorse, excellant and very true! However:

1. Many people read the Bible for what they want it to say, not to see what it says. They have a personal perspective and want to see what's in the Bible that might be construed to mean what they want it to. This can be uprooted by getting very familiar with scripture, which takes a long time, but is worth it. Many scriptures have a qualifier somewhere else in the Bible.

You can not completely remove the human nature from us in order to understand it totally, nor can you garuantee the translaters throughout the ages have not faultered or that you do not misinturpret many verses, creating a false cross-reference.

2. Context and historical occasion are everything. The Bible cannot mean what it has never meant, and most scriptures have an occasion, or something specific that God was addressing through His servants. Knowing this will put scripture into perspective. Also reading a text in context with the rest of the text is a good way to get the real meaning out of it.

Context and historical references were what the Pharisees prided themselves on. None the less they did not understand while an uneducated peseant in the street fell at Christs feet in understanding. It's really no differant today.

Why is nothing simple? =/

 

[GrayArea]

It was Him in the first place who taught me about this kind of love, His love. He loved me when I did not He existed, He loved me before I accepted Him, He loved me when I left Him and wondered away, He loved me when I came back (and came back hesitantly), He loves me even though He knows that I am thinking more of this man than of Him, He loved me even though I did not even want to talk to Him, did not want to hear from Him.

God's forgiveness and love is so great that nothing can separate us from Him:

This is precisely my point! What you confuse is my perspective of what is meant by "us". Jesus said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." He was talking about those who tortured and killed him. He was asking for forgiveness for those who stood before him, heard who he was and denied him anyway. He did not say, deny them heaven because they have chosen to mock me! Jesus prayed for God to forgive them because even though they choose to spit in his face, they simply didn't know any better! He was pleading forgiveness for those who "chose" the way of evil. HOW GREAT IS THAT! Isn't Jesus the very reflection of the Father? God sacrificed his son to send us that message. Why then wouldn't that same forgiveness be true of God? Does God not also love his enemies and forgive those who deny him? Or does he send them to hell? Does he save to be loved, or does he save because he loves? Does that make sense?

God wants me to be save because He loves me, God wants all of us to be saved becaue He loves us ... but He knows that love requires choice, not force. I cannot be with a man unless I accept him, I cannot be with God unless I accept His Son.

It is our very nature to reject God. You say i wish to "force" salvation on those that reject Him. I say, reveal the truth and they will want salvation. The reason people are able to reject God is because we, as sinners, horribly represent him to the point they do not know what they are rejecting. I hold to the belief that God has the capacity to reveal himself to all men, in life or beyond, to free them and in so doing show the us what we didn't even know we wanted, salvation. If someone curses God until their physical deaths, i don't believe they are lost eternally, just "sleeping" until they meet God and learn what it's like to be loved. No force involved!

I do not dread heaven. But if hell exists and it is man's choice to be there, a God who saves to be loved and not because He loves, is not one i would care to join.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Whitehorse, excellant and very true!

Thank you for your kind compliment.

However:

1. Many people read the Bible for what they want it to say, not to see what it says. They have a personal perspective and want to see what's in the Bible that might be construed to mean what they want it to. This can be uprooted by getting very familiar with scripture, which takes a long time, but is worth it. Many scriptures have a qualifier somewhere else in the Bible.

You can not completely remove the human nature from us in order to understand it totally, nor can you garuantee the translaters throughout the ages have not faultered or that you do not misinturpret many verses, creating a false cross-reference.

Thank the Lord that He is sovereign! There are some mistakes in translating, but they usually end up being found because there are many many transcripts out there, of varying ages. The vast majority of the mistakes are with the reader. God won't let His word be skewed, but He does require all of our hearts from us. When He has that, the word becomes much clearer. He shows us things in His scripture we didn't see before. The Holy Spirit guides us. And then we're resigned to Him so we are open to it.

2. Context and historical occasion are everything. The Bible cannot mean what it has never meant, and most scriptures have an occasion, or something specific that God was addressing through His servants. Knowing this will put scripture into perspective. Also reading a text in context with the rest of the text is a good way to get the real meaning out of it.

Context and historical references were what the Pharisees prided themselves on. None the less they did not understand while an uneducated peseant in the street fell at Christs feet in understanding. It's really no differant today.

No, they didn't really understand at all. That's why Jesus rebuked them. It really is important to find out what scripture is addressing. How can anyone go wrong knowing what scripture is addressing, unless they change what it means?

Why is nothing simple? =/

Don't worry-it is simple-faith in the Lord and obedience to His commands. If we do these two things, He will make our paths straight. But, there is the problem of satan-the deceiver. He seeks to deceive so he can get us to sin and drive a wedge of disapproval between the Lord and His people. But if we're truly seeking God and we confess our sins to Him, He is faithful to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, in two ways. He forgives tresspass, but He also leads us out of it so we're not in error anymore. The Bible tells us to study hard, to show ourselves approved, as workmen who rightly handle the word of God. He honored the Bereans for doing this. The problem with the Pharisees wasn't diligent study; it was their self-interest, and how this caused them to mistranslate what they read. For example, they took monetary support from needy parents to give to the temple, and Jesus said they were dishonoring their parents. He told them to learn the meaning of the scriptural admonition: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'

So, you're right-it's simple, but not easy.

You raise very good questions, by the way, and it's a pleasure discussing these issues with you.

 

[carmi]

IWhat you confuse is my perspective of what is meant by "us". Jesus said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." He was talking about those who tortured and killed him. He was asking for forgiveness for those who stood before him, heard who he was and denied him anyway. He did not say, deny them heaven because they have chosen to mock me! Jesus prayed for God to forgive them because even though they choose to spit in his face, they simply didn't know any better! He was pleading forgiveness for those who "chose" the way of evil. HOW GREAT IS THAT! Isn't Jesus the very reflection of the Father? God sacrificed his son to send us that message.

Jesus Christ also said: "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent Him.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:23,24)

That's the message.

And Jesus Christ said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me." (John 14:6)

In the light of this, He could not have possibly pleading forgiveness for those who chose the "way of evil". John 14:6 does not at all like "all ways lead to Rome".

As to what He said on the cross? All the people that were there - the only wrong they ever did was turning Jesus over to the Romans, mocking Him? Notice Jesus did not say "forgive them all their sins" - He asked for forgiveness for that sin of ignorance. I honestly can't say that I can claim ignorance each time I did wrong. Many times I knew exactly what I was doing.

IWhy then wouldn't that same forgiveness be true of God? Does God not also love his enemies and forgive those who deny him? Or does he send them to hell?

Who do you believe was Jesus Christ? I have to ask this because I get the impression you are talking about two different "people".

Does he save to be loved, or does he save because he loves? Does that make sense?

He saves because He loves. Personally I cannot think of any reason why God would be obliged to have me in heaven. And as far as I am concerned, my love for Him will never match the love He has for me. It is not a mutual love affair. My love, the amount of love I have for Him won't get me anywhere ... but I do trust Him and believe on Him. I need Him - He does not need me.

 

[GrayArea]

The vast majority of the mistakes are with the reader. God won't let His word be skewed, but He does require all of our hearts from us. When He has that, the word becomes much clearer. He shows us things in His scripture we didn't see before. The Holy Spirit guides us.

I completely agree! Though i might add that even with God's guidance, good refrences and an active faith, there's always room for error. Truth is revealed in God's own time and we have a horrible time filling in the rest. Until the day we are filled with 100% understanding and can completely shed off our sinful natures, we're prone to confuse things. Agree?

How can anyone go wrong knowing what scripture is addressing, unless they change what it means?

I wish i knew the answer to that one! Somehow we silly little sinners still seem to manage it. Some understand what has been revealed by God, praise God for salvation yet believe doctrines with horrible consiquences. We don't feel we're changing the beautiful message of Christ until we look back and AH! I believed that? God help us! It happens.

So, you're right-it's simple, but not easy.

Lol.. the message is simple, i'm the one being difficult. Blast it all! How do i get rid of "me"? =p

You raise very good questions, by the way, and it's a pleasure discussing these issues with you.

Thank you, /*blushing*/
You've been incredibly patient and gracious with me not to mention given me some great points to ponder. I really appreciate it. Thanks to everyone for your time and great responses!

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Quote=Whitehorse]The vast majority of the mistakes are with the reader. God won't let His word be skewed, but He does require all of our hearts from us. When He has that, the word becomes much clearer. He shows us things in His scripture we didn't see before. The Holy Spirit guides us.

I completely agree! Though i might add that even with God's guidance, good refrences and an active faith, there's always room for error. Truth is revealed in God's own time and we have a horrible time filling in the rest. Until the day we are filled with 100% understanding and can completely shed off our sinful natures, we're prone to confuse things. Agree?

[/quote]

Okay, I think I understand. You're asking what to do when you're not sure about something. I know-it's hard waiting. What I do is, I pray forst, then I use a concordance to look up a word and all related words to see if I can find the answer in scripture. Then, after I've mulled over what I know, I ask people I know have really faithful doctrine and who have a good handle on scripture. I read commentaries-Matthew Henry is the ever popular favorite. Luther, Calvin, Matthew Poole... And then the Lord eventually reveals it.

I'm careful about attributing related sermons, etc. as providence, though, because there are times I've heard people teach on a subject right after I prayed about it, but it was error.

It is really hard waiting, though; I will say that! I know the discomfort of not knowing what to do in a particular instance.

How can anyone go wrong knowing what scripture is addressing, unless they change what it means?

I wish i knew the answer to that one! Somehow we silly little sinners still seem to manage it. Some understand what has been revealed by God, praise God for salvation yet believe doctrines with horrible consiquences. We don't feel we're changing the beautiful message of Christ until we look back and AH! I believed that? God help us! It happens.

Well, I will say that in my own journey, one of the big hurdles was coming to grips with the portions of scripture that were hard to swallow. This is where the temptation comes for us to take one set of verses and believe that, or another that seem to say something else, and hold to that, because we're attracted to an idea. One common example of this is the question of whether a Christian can lose salvation. The arminians say salvation is about the will and grab a handful of prooftexts, the reformers grab the ones on divine election and line up on the other side of the line.

I am Reformed. But I will say this: all the verses that the arminians grab and all the verses that the reformers grab all come out of the same Bible. That's when we must recognize that we're often fighting for a desired belief more than for what scripture truly says, because the verses about divine election and the ones about falling away are in the same Bible. The question is, what are the boundaries of each doctrine? Can people fall away? Yes. Will the elect fall away? No. But that won't be without their human responsibility. That eradicates the idea that we can do nothing for God our whole lives, die unrepentant, and still be counted amongst the elect. But neither does it depend on our efforts. That eradicates the idea that God picked us because we're good, or that our works save us, or that we're saved because of our works, or because of our own will and choosing. Here's what it truly is: The elect will seek God with all their hearts, and find Him, because He decreed it beforehand. And He will respond to all genuine efforts to find Him, but the fact that He doesn't leave usthat isn't a guarantee that we won't choose to leave Him. The fact that He won't give us more than we can bear doesn't mean He won't give us more than we are willing to bear. He is merciful. And He is just. He saves. He damns. He heals. He destroys. In all things, choosing, rejecting, saving, damning, healing, killing, He is perfect. But it's a journey for us to realize that, because we can only see part of the puzzle. We see eternal suffering. But we don't see the numerous rejections of God's kindness and abusive treatment of His name or His servants. God sees all. And while I've always known God is perfect, it wasn't for quite a while that I knew He was perfect.

So, you're right-it's simple, but not easy.

Lol.. the message is simple, i'm the one being difficult. Blast it all! How do i get rid of "me"? =p

You're not being difficult at all! This is a step in your faith-a big one. We all go through it. You raise a legitimate question and I applaud you for asking it. For me, the way to get rid of the me that gets in the way is a lot of alone time with the Lord. That way I'm focued on the scriptures and godly literature and sermons that remind me of His perfection instead of my thinking about what I see-people whittling their lives away, rejecting scripture until the bitter end, in misery, children hurting, etc. I concentrate on Him and pray, and find God alone is the answer to those problems, and He wants to use me. If only I'd sit quietly long enough to hear what He has in mind.

You raise very good questions, by the way, and it's a pleasure discussing these issues with you.

Thank you, /*blushing*/
You've been incredibly patient and gracious with me not to mention given me some great points to ponder. I really appreciate it. Thanks to everyone for your time and great responses!

It's a privilege to discuss it with you and to pray for your blessing.

 

[GrayArea]

Carmi, keep in mind i'm being hypothetical. My questions are ethical not Religious. If we argue symantics a book roughly the size of Moby Dick would result. =p

"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me." (John 14:6)

We all have gone through a time when we know we're self-destructive and despite our efforts, we're incapable of doing anything about it. We get trapped and in our desperation need a way out. Jesus, is the way outthat we as self-absorbed sinners can not provide ourselves. It is because of the truth God reveals to us that we are saved at all, not by our own means. It is embedded in our hearts and strikes us with awe of everything good that we can't understand but desire to. Jesus is therefore also the life line protecting us from ourselves and our self-destructive natures. (among other things)

As to what He said on the cross? All the people that were there - the only wrong they ever did was turning Jesus over to the Romans, mocking Him? Notice Jesus did not say "forgive them all their sins" - He asked for forgiveness for that sin of ignorance. I honestly can't say that I can claim ignorance each time I did wrong. Many times I knew exactly what I was doing.

I'm sorry but that is scary on SO many levels i don't know where to begin! Jesus only died for some? There are unforgiveable sins like turning on God? Have you never turned on God? I cursed God about a year ago and have been mad at Him countless times sense. If that was unforgiveable, that's okay. At least I know a majority of other Christians out there will join me in damnation. If cursing God upon physical death is the prerequesite, i hope i never curse God right before getting run over by a car or something. I'd hate to loose my soul in a moment of a freak accident. =p I know, silly example. You get what i'm saying though.

My point for arguing universal salvation is that we may know the consiquences of our actions but we can not presume to comprehend their spiritual results without God's guidance. We may not be able to forgive God but God can still manage to forgive us. I have cursed God, known full well what i was doing, but somehow managed to find Him again. Forgiven or misguided? Am i an exception or just another soul lost? Everything i've read of Jesus reflects him as hating the sin but loving the sinner without exceptions. The result of this belief is that i view everyone as not so much a sinner as i do a pontential saint. The bigger the sinner, the greater the saint and even if they die cursing God, they're in for a huge blessing when they get there. Their eyes will be opened, they'll weep for their misunderstanding and find peace just like one would here on earth.

God condems the sin so we don't repeat it but that's not the same as sending the sinner to suffer eternally. We inherited sin, are we faulted for it? I hold to the understanding that God is love, lack of God is lack of love, standing before God is recognizing love (tough & cuddly). That ultimately God too loves his enemies no matter how "evil", sinful, resistant or blind and that we will all one day see God and find peace.

Romantic? yes, but do we take what we know of God and apply it to the bible or do we take what we know of the bible and apply it to God? *shrug, both is prone to error. =/

 

[carmi]

As to what He said on the cross? All the people that were there - the only wrong they ever did was turning Jesus over to the Romans, mocking Him? Notice Jesus did not say "forgive them all their sins" - He asked for forgiveness for that sin of ignorance. I honestly can't say that I can claim ignorance each time I did wrong. Many times I knew exactly what I was doing.

I'm sorry but that is scary on SO many levels i don't know where to begin! Jesus only died for some?

I was directly responding to your post (see quote below)

quote
What you confuse is my perspective of what is meant by "us". Jesus said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." He was talking about those who tortured and killed him. He was asking for forgiveness for those who stood before him, heard who he was and denied him anyway. He did not say, deny them heaven because they have chosen to mock me! Jesus prayed for God to forgive them because even though they choose to spit in his face, they simply didn't know any better! He was pleading forgiveness for those who "chose" the way of evil. HOW GREAT IS THAT! Isn't Jesus the very reflection of the Father? God sacrificed his son to send us that message. Why then wouldn't that same forgiveness be true of God? Does God not also love his enemies and forgive those who deny him? Or does he send them to hell? Does he save to be loved, or does he save because he loves? Does that make sense?
unquote

I believe that God forgives all sins and He forgives everybody, every human being who believes on Jesus Christ.

"I am the light of the world: he that followeth Me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." John 8:12

"I go my way, and ye shall seek Me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come." John 8:21

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins."

I can be totally wrong in my attempt to explain what He said on the cross and to reconcile it with that what He said in John and other passages.

Did they believe on Him? Did they accept Him and His sacrifice? I don't know, I believe it is not important whether they believed on Him and trusted in Him before He said, shortly after He said or years later.

There are unforgiveable sins like turning on God? Have you never turned on God? I cursed God about a year ago and have been mad at Him countless times sense. If that was unforgiveable, that's okay. At least I know a majority of other Christians out there will join me in damnation. If cursing God upon physical death is the prerequesite, i hope i never curse God right before getting run over by a car or something. I'd hate to loose my soul in a moment of a freak accident. =p I know, silly example. You get what i'm saying though.

The apostle Peter is a prime example. He cursed, he denied Jesus Christ. He was not damned for it, he repented and turned to Him. But Peter believed in Him.

My point for arguing universal salvation is that we may know the consiquences of our actions but we can not presume to comprehend their spiritual results without God's guidance. We may not be able to forgive God but God can still manage to forgive us. I have cursed God, known full well what i was doing, but somehow managed to find Him again. Forgiven or misguided? Am i an exception or just another soul lost?

I turned away from God for awhile, and later returned to Him. So that makes two of us. I don't know whether this was the only reason, but I think it possible that Jesus Christ gave us the parable of the prodigal son so that we know that we can return, all we need to do is turn to Him, go back to Him.

Everything i've read of Jesus reflects him as hating the sin but loving the sinner without exceptions. The result of this belief is that i view everyone as not so much a sinner as i do a pontential saint. The bigger the sinner, the greater the saint and even if they die cursing God, they're in for a huge blessing when they get there. Their eyes will be opened, they'll weep for their misunderstanding and find peace just like one would here on earth.

I know I felt loved and accepted when I first turned to God and He saved me. But, after turning away and staying away and committing a big sin ... when I returned back to Him, when I confessed that I did this terrible thing of going away from Him, doing the things that He did not want me to do, and I asked Him to forgive me. Admittedly it took me awhile to grasp that I am forgiven, that He has not forsaken me (although I had forsaken Him) - because His love and His forgiveness was almost too much for me ... I felt more loved than at the time I first turned to Him.

I am sorry, my comprehension is lacking and I admit I am not quite sure what you are saying here.

All I can say is that I believe everyone who dies believing on Jesus Christ are in for the greatest blessing. One of the thieves who were crucified along with Jesus Christ never did get a chance to live a good life, not to turn away from God, he died within hours. But Jesus Christ told Him that that same day he will be in paradise. Jesus Christ did not turn to the other thief saying: "And so will you." I believe that Jesus Christ is of infinite compassion and He is not careless, He would not have hesitated to comfort and assure the other thief, yet Jesus Christ did not say anything to the other thief who did not believe on Him.

I cannot recommend anyone to "curse God and die" as Job's wife recommended. All I can recommend is to believe on Jesus Christ.

 

[GrayArea]

Carmi- First, i want to say that i highly respect your ability to bring up scriptural references in your arguments. Your points are well supported and have been validated by many of the studies I've read. I'm afraid though our discussion has somehow spread on a topic to big for itself so i may start a new thread (or several). =p

To respond quickly to your post;

I believe that God forgives all sins and He forgives everybody, every human being who believes on Jesus Christ.

All sins and everybody or just those who believe in Jesus Christ?

The apostle Peter is a prime example. He cursed, he denied Jesus Christ. He was not damned for it, he repented and turned to Him. But Peter believed in Him. I turned away from God for awhile, and later returned to Him. So that makes two of us. I don't know whether this was the only reason, but I think it possible that Jesus Christ gave us the parable of the prodigal son so that we know that we can return, all we need to do is turn to Him, go back to Him.

Precisely my point. How is the unforgivable sin, forgiven? Either it is or it isn't. Unforgiveable to God would mean no exceptions. Surely God is not wishy-washy on who he takes back and who he does not. If you translate using the Hebrew root "ga ben Hinnom" instead of gehenna, you seemingly come out without needing to compromise as much. It is my understanding that the Hebrew root does not imply anything eternal, but simply a place of shame and filth, you get Jesus telling us that we will suffer in the shame and filth for our own actions, where we can not forgive ourselves. No infinite torture or eternal hellfire and it seemingly works without contradiction but is it true? *shrug I'm not a scholar.

Jesus Christ did not say anything to the other thief who did not believe on Him

He did not bless the other thief, nor did he curse him to eternal hell fire. Yet he did cry out "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." not "they know not". *shrug

 

[carmi]

I believe that God forgives all sins and He forgives everybody, every human being who believes on Jesus Christ.

All sins and everybody or just those who believe in Jesus Christ?

I believe all my sins are forgiven because I believe in Jesus Christ and trust in Him. I cannot trust myself, I tried only to be convinced that I do make mistakes, sometimes even repeating a mistake against my better knowledge.
Since then I am not scared anymore. At the age of 10 someone told me that my mom died in her sleep - I was terrified of falling asleep since then. It got better over the years but even in my early twens I often had the worry "what if I die in my sleep". That fear has gone completely.

I am a very lazy person, I enjoy being taken care of - not to have to worry about my future. Or what is going to happen, if ... where will I be ...
Even though my life is upside-down and in turmoil, I still know He is there and I know where I will be in the end.

I am not under a cloud anymore, I feel loved and accepted regardless of how things appear on the outside.

If God has another way for others, and uses a different way to love, accpet, guide and comfort them - that would be His prerogative. I don't know of any other way. From what I observed, other ways seem to leave people wonder, unsure, questioning, or outright denying His existence.

I am straying often, falling back, making wrong turns, going backward, delaying progress ... but even then He is there. I'd be too scared to choose any other way because I am not sure that He would be with me on this other way. And if I don't dare to try any other way, all I can recommend is to choose the way I am on.

I trust Him with my life, so I have no difficulties to believe when Jesus Christ says: I am the Way - and whosoever believeth on Me ...

If you think there is another way, I would not know. I do know that even if I stray and go off the cliff, He is there - one way or the other He will catch me and bring me to safety.

The apostle Peter is a prime example. He cursed, he denied Jesus Christ. He was not damned for it, he repented and turned to Him. But Peter believed in Him. I turned away from God for awhile, and later returned to Him. So that makes two of us. I don't know whether this was the only reason, but I think it possible that Jesus Christ gave us the parable of the prodigal son so that we know that we can return, all we need to do is turn to Him, go back to Him.

Precisely my point. How is the unforgivable sin, forgiven? Either it is or it isn't. Unforgiveable to God would mean no exceptions. Surely God is not wishy-washy on who he takes back and who he does not.

Peter most certainly knew who Jesus Christ was. When Jesus asked him "who do you think am I" - Peter's answer was very clear. Peter was angry, disappointed but he did not believe.

Jesus Christ did not say anything to the other thief who did not believe on Him

He did not bless the other thief, nor did he curse him to eternal hell fire. Yet he did cry out "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." not "they know not". *shrug

These words were said before His Resurrection. And He said very clearly that there would be only one sign given. He claimed they could destroy Him and He would raise up within 3 days. He claimed to be the Resurrection. And the one thief asked Him to remember him when He entered His Kingdom, in other words the thief believed Jesus' claims, the thief believed on Him.

To this day - many people don't believe that He resurrected, and from the book of Acts it would seem that many of the Jews who were alive at the time did not believe that the Resurrection took place.