Which dimension does God live in?

DrStrangelove · Jan 21, 2008

Stainless said:
Incorrect logic.

The universe has always been (logically it can never not exist) yet the Bible is accurate anyway. Learn how to read it and you see how both can be true.

Not entirely true. The universe, as we know it, has 'not existed' at points in time. Why? Because assuming it has "always been" is..uhm..well, it just doesn't make sense. There's a beginning and end to all things, the universe is no different. Prior to it's beginning, it obviously "wasn't-was". Now, since the universe encompasses all time & reality, you could, technically say that it has never not-existed since, with the creation of universe came time.

But we're getting into theoretical physics.

Wiccan_Child · Jan 21, 2008

stan1980 said:
As humans we live in a 3 dimensional world. In quantum physics it is accepted that 11 dimensions is the maximum you can get up to. Would it make sense then, that if we have a God who observes us, he lives one level up in the 4th dimension, with the 4th dimension being time, which would make us nothing more than a sculpture to him. This would mean he can see the beginning and the end of time at any point. It would also mean are futures are determined, and that we don't have free will.

It also raises the question of whether God has a God above him...

This link nicely explains dimensions in case you are baffled: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU1fixMAObI&feature=related

I think you have a major misunderstanding of what a dimension is. It's not something from those old sci-fi shows: They came... FROM THE 5TH DIMENSION!!!
Rather, it's a mathematical concept used to specify certain types of spaces.

stan1980 · Jan 21, 2008

GratiaCorpusChristi said:
Not really, no.

The 'kalam' cosmological argument for the existence of God, as formulated by Islamic theorists during the Middle Ages, runs as such:

1. Premise. Everything that begins to exist has cause.
2. Premise. The universe began to exist.
3. Conclusion (from 1 and 2). The universe has a cause.

If we herein define the universe as all of spacetime, then whatever caused the universe in not within time.

And if the cause of the universe (and for the moment we'll define God as the creator of the universe) is outside time (oh, and per this thread, space), then we can't really talk about cause and effect, can we? There cannot be cause and effect without time.

So if God created time, then no, there is no logical necessity that God a cause.

Interesting, i'll have to get back to you on this after i've read up properly on the kalam argument. My first instincts is i'm not to happy with it.

Stainless said:
Incorrect logic.

The universe has always been (logically it can never not exist) yet the Bible is accurate anyway. Learn how to read it and you see how both can be true.

If you're going to say my logic is incorrect that is fine (it probably is!). But can you at least back up what you are saying with reasoning? This response is just far too vague.

stan1980 · Jan 21, 2008

Wiccan_Child said:
I think you have a major misunderstanding of what a dimension is. It's not something from those old sci-fi shows: They came... FROM THE 5TH DIMENSION!!!
Rather, it's a mathematical concept used to specify certain types of spaces.

To be fair, that has been brought up before, and i accept that my understanding is poor. The thread has taken a slightly different direction now, so please read through.

Stainless · Jan 21, 2008

DrStrangelove said:
Not entirely true. The universe, as we know it, has 'not existed' at points in time. Why? Because assuming it has "always been" is..uhm..well, it just doesn't make sense. There's a beginning and end to all things, the universe is no different. Prior to it's beginning, it obviously "wasn't-was". Now, since the universe encompasses all time & reality, you could, technically say that it has never not-existed since, with the creation of universe came time.

But we're getting into theoretical physics.

Actually logic is all that is needed. It isn't a trivial pursuit, so I can understand why there are misunderstandings, but;

What is the logic in referring to something "before time"??

For time to exist, there must be something changing in comparison to something else. That is all time is.

We tend to try to imagine a time when there were no objects of any kind. We can fantasize about such things, but reality and logic says it is merely a fantasy.

For something to come into existence, there must be an occurrence. But an occurrence is no more than something changing from whatever it was. Changing takes time. Each proposed point in time when the occurrence was coming about must have a pre-occurrence before it, even if infinitely small.

The problem is that even with only infinitely small segments of time involved there is no way to have a beginning point for the pre-occurrences.

No matter what was before anything, whatever it was, is what we call "the universe" at that time. It logically cannot have a beginning.

The idea that "all things have a beginning and an end" came merely from propaganda utilizing the small time span that a normal mind sees reality. They said the same thing concerning infinite lines, "infinity doesn't make sense."

If you can have 3 dimensions infinitely long, exactly what is the problem with the "fourth dimension", time, also being infinite??

If that isn't enough, in physics it can be shown that it is impossible to have truly empty space - anywhere, ever - at.. any.. time.

Wiccan_Child · Jan 22, 2008

Stainless said:
If you can have 3 dimensions infinitely long, exactly what is the problem with the "fourth dimension", time, also being infinite??

Because of what it means for a dimension to be 'infinite'. Time may be infinite in both directions, but we have no way of knowing. The same applies to the three (or 11, or 26) spacial dimensions: as far as I know, the edge of the universe marks the 'end' of the spacial dimension.

Mathematical coordinate systems take the ideal case of open geometry, but this needn't be the case in reality.

Stainless · Jan 22, 2008

Wiccan_Child said:
Because of what it means for a dimension to be 'infinite'. Time may be infinite in both directions, but we have no way of knowing. The same applies to the three (or 11, or 26) spacial dimensions: as far as I know, the edge of the universe marks the 'end' of the spacial dimension.

Mathematical coordinate systems take the ideal case of open geometry, but this needn't be the case in reality.

"Before time" is an oxymoron.

Dimensions do not exist at all in the universe. They do not bend or terminate at the edge of the perceived universe. They are CONCEPTS for the mind and nothing else.

The question concerning time is merely one of asking, "What was before anything was?" - Merely an irrational and illogical question the same as asking, "What is bigger than the biggest Possible?" - What was Earlier than the Earliest possible?

Wiccan_Child · Jan 22, 2008

Stainless said:
"Before time" is an oxymoron.

As is the term 'virtual reality'. Peculiarities in the English language doesn't necessitate nonexistance.

Stainless said:
Dimensions do not exist at all in the universe. They do not bend or terminate at the edge of the perceived universe. They are CONCEPTS for the mind and nothing else.

That's not entirely true. While there aren't great arcs in the sky that define the cosmic coordinate system, the universe still has properties that restrict our freedom when it comes to modelling space. For instance, the universe is demonstratably not two-dimensional, so we cannot use 2D polar coordinates (for instance). Whatever coordinate system we use, it has to encompass all dimensions our universe exists in or could potentially exist in.

So if the universe is, or could be, in n dimenstions, then whichever coordinate system we use must also have n dimensions.

And these dimensions are not immutable: for instance, once you have formulated Einstein's field equations under them, you find that large masses and velocities will warp them in peculiar ways.

Likewise, dimensions do have a natural terminus: space ends at the end of the universe, by definition. Thus, any spacial dimensions must also end (how can you have length in nothingness?). Moreover, the same applies to time: there is a natural terminus where time ends (how can you time the timeless?).

Stainless said:
The question concerning time is merely one of asking, "What was before anything was?" - Merely an irrational and illogical question the same as asking, "What is bigger than the biggest Possible?" - What was Earlier than the Earliest possible?

Ah, no, you are equivocating: "What was before time?" is not necessarily the same as "What was earlier than the earliest?". If we rewind the universe, we appear to reach a natural t = 0 scenario: the Big Bang. Now, at t = 0, at the moment just prior to the Big Bang itself, the universe was in a certain state.
Now, there must have been a state such that the universe was without time, and a state where the universe had time (i.e., our t = 0). The timeless state is the answer to the question 'What was before time?".
You just need to iron out the language a bit.

Stainless · Jan 22, 2008

Well, I will have to simply disagree and leave it at that. You have brought up too many types of errors to "iron out" in this thread. Nor do I have such time.

..but "virtual reality" is not an oxymoron in that "virtual" merely means "similitude", not fictional.

"You just need to iron out the language a bit"

talkingmonkey · Jan 25, 2008

GratiaCorpusChristi said:
Brentano, writing at the beginning of the twentieth century, came up with an excellent definition for the mind.

The definition of a body is something with is spatially extended.

A mind is not this. A mind, by definition, is something that exists but does not exist in spatial extension.

What is God? Pure Mind.

He doesn't exist in dimensions.

so...he's saying...that god is all in your head? Merely a conjured imagination from a string of electrical impulses in the brain to render thoughts and beliefs?

UndercoverElephant · Jan 25, 2008

God lives in dimension zero. God is zero-dimensional.

EpicMZK · Dec 23, 2012

Solidlyhere said:
I guess the OP likes sci-fi.

If God made mankind in His image, then I assume that God (also) lives in a 3-dimensional existence. If not that, then God lives in a zero-dimensional existence.

About the OP's thinking God lives in Time ... I believe that God lives in a time-LESS existence.

if god live in a time-less existence, than how would we (our souls) be able to enter his dimension and walk around? in order to walk, there needs to be time, and if there is no time, than we would be stuck.

elopez · Dec 24, 2012

stan1980 said:
As humans we live in a 3 dimensional world. In quantum physics it is accepted that 11 dimensions is the maximum you can get up to. Would it make sense then, that if we have a God who observes us, he lives one level up in the 4th dimension, with the 4th dimension being time, which would make us nothing more than a sculpture to him. This would mean he can see the beginning and the end of time at any point. It would also mean are futures are determined, and that we don't have free will.

I think I have heard of 12 dimensions actually, but I'll have to find that. I would say God has no dimensions, as He exists in an atemporal state. He knows beginning from end, and yes, in a way that means the future is determined to happen. I do not, however, think that means there can be no free will. Determinism and free will are compatible.

Wiccan_Child · Dec 24, 2012

elopez said:
I think I have heard of 12 dimensions actually, but I'll have to find that. I would say God has no dimensions, as He exists in an atemporal state.

If God exists in an atemporal state, how can he be said to be an intelligence? Without time, there is no change; God would exist as a frozen snapshot, unchanging and unchangable. He couldn't answer prayers, impregnate virgins, kill firstborns, etc. So, how does that work?

elopez · Dec 24, 2012

Wiccan_Child said:
If God exists in an atemporal state, how can he be said to be an intelligence? Without time, there is no change; God would exist as a frozen snapshot, unchanging and unchangable. He couldn't answer prayers, impregnate virgins, kill firstborns, etc. So, how does that work?

I view God in a triune way in relation to time. God the Father is atemporal. The Son is temporal, as well as the Holy Spirit. Even then there are other methods of relating to humanity from the Father's perspective, such as what is known as theophanies, for example.

Wiccan_Child · Dec 25, 2012

elopez said:
I view God in a triune way in relation to time. God the Father is atemporal. The Son is temporal, as well as the Holy Spirit. Even then there are other methods of relating to humanity from the Father's perspective, such as what is known as theophanies, for example.

So is God temporal, or atemporal? Does he change in time, or doesn't he? Christians believe in a single entity, so possessing it with mutually exclusive properties seems counter-productive.

GrowingSmaller · Dec 25, 2012

Who said space and time are the only dimensions? Maybe there are others. Isnt time due to statistical likelihoods? What dimension do mathematical objects live in?

Phosophoros · Dec 25, 2012

The god of our realm runs the 7 lower dimensions, the most High transcends everything, and is the all. The forces of darkness will be booted out of the 7 dimensions and thrown into abyss, and Logos (son of the most high) will rule them at forefront.

RisingSpirit · Dec 25, 2012

I would say that "TIME" doesn't allow for man to have free will. The only thing man can to is observe and act on the observation. That ain't free will, though. It's slaved/Captive will just like the Bible said. Time has made us captive.

elopez · Dec 25, 2012

Wiccan_Child said:
So is God temporal, or atemporal?

I think this question is a false dilemma. God is both temporal and atemporal.

Wiccan_Child said:
Does he change in time, or doesn't he? Christians believe in a single entity, so possessing it with mutually exclusive properties seems counter-productive.

The Son, once incarnated, I would say changes physically. The Father remains changeless and atemporal as He does with creation as He did without creation. According to the Trinity God is a single Deity existent as three distinct persons. That allows, or so it seems, this concept of a triune relation to time.

Which dimension does God live in?

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