Which Day of the Week is the Sabbath? (2)

[Cliff2]

So does the official church literature say that there will be saved Christians from other denominations? Yes. Does the average SDA actually believe that? Not in my experience. (cruztacean)

I am sorry that you have heard such things as I can assure you that where I live such things are not said or heard.

Perhaps it is because they maynot have been exposed to what the SDA Church really believes. I do not really know why they would think like that.

In fact the Bible says that "there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold"

 

[Cliff2]

I understand that SDA's CLAIM to believe there will be saints from every denomination. But my experience with them as far as what they act as if they DO believe is quite different. I have observed more than one shaking their heads after speaking to a happy, joy-filled Christian from another denomination, and say, "There's nothing sadder than someone who thinks they're saved and isn't." And after one Bible class, in which it was noted from Mrs. White's writings that Satan will continue to be punished long after others have been obliterated, someone observed, "And right there with him will be all those Sunday people." No one refuted the statement.

So does the official church literature say that there will be saved Christians from other denominations? Yes. Does the average SDA actually believe that? Not in my experience.

Jesus did say, "If you love me, keep my commandments." He also said, Matthew 18:9 "If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." Ouch! Ever look at something you shouldn't have looked at? Then I assume you no longer have both eyes, since you want to keep Jesus' commandments to the letter.

If people want to nitpick down to verb tenses and prepositions, how many are willing to take Matthew 18:9 literally?

"The commandments of God" in Rev. 14:12, to me, is not synonymous with "the ten commandments." There are many, many other commandments in the Bible besides those ten. Your church's insistence on the Levitical diet shows that you adhere to other commandments besides the ten. But James tells us that if we keep the whole law but offend in one point, we are as guilty as if we'd broken every one. Every SDA in the world has used James 2:10 as a scriptural hand grenade against the rest of us. Is "the whole law" just the ten commandments, or is it "the whole law?" If it refers only to the ten commandments, then why not eat a pork chop? Dietary restrictions are not in the ten commandments.

Now, one last thing about Scripture wars. I think the whole mental image is ridiculous.

"The Bible says this!" (pin-pulling, toss, whistling sound, explosion)
"No, it really says THIS!" (more of the same)

Paul did talk about spiritual warfare, but I don't think we were supposed to use it on each other.

So does the official church literature say that there will be saved Christians from other denominations? Yes. Does the average SDA actually believe that? Not in my experience. (cruztacean)

I am sorry that you have heard such things as I can assure you that where I live such things are not said or heard.

Perhaps it is because they maynot have been exposed to what the SDA Church really believes. I do not really know why they would think like that.

In fact the Bible says that "there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold"

 

[ThreeAM]

I understand that SDA's CLAIM to believe there will be saints from every denomination. But my experience with them as far as what they act as if they DO believe is quite different. I have observed more than one shaking their heads after speaking to a happy, joy-filled Christian from another denomination, and say, "There's nothing sadder than someone who thinks they're saved and isn't." And after one Bible class, in which it was noted from Mrs. White's writings that Satan will continue to be punished long after others have been obliterated, someone observed, "And right there with him will be all those Sunday people." No one refuted the statement.

So does the official church literature say that there will be saved Christians from other denominations? Yes. Does the average SDA actually believe that? Not in my experience.

Jesus did say, "If you love me, keep my commandments." He also said, Matthew 18:9 "If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." Ouch! Ever look at something you shouldn't have looked at? Then I assume you no longer have both eyes, since you want to keep Jesus' commandments to the letter.

If people want to nitpick down to verb tenses and prepositions, how many are willing to take Matthew 18:9 literally?

"The commandments of God" in Rev. 14:12, to me, is not synonymous with "the ten commandments." There are many, many other commandments in the Bible besides those ten. Your church's insistence on the Levitical diet shows that you adhere to other commandments besides the ten. But James tells us that if we keep the whole law but offend in one point, we are as guilty as if we'd broken every one. Every SDA in the world has used James 2:10 as a scriptural hand grenade against the rest of us. Is "the whole law" just the ten commandments, or is it "the whole law?" If it refers only to the ten commandments, then why not eat a pork chop? Dietary restrictions are not in the ten commandments.

Now, one last thing about Scripture wars. I think the whole mental image is ridiculous.

"The Bible says this!" (pin-pulling, toss, whistling sound, explosion)
"No, it really says THIS!" (more of the same)

Paul did talk about spiritual warfare, but I don't think we were supposed to use it on each other.

Sounds like you were a pretty ill-informed SDA

I have a suggestion for you. Try going to the adventist forum on this site and ask them if they believe great Christians like Luthar, Wesley, Calvin and the other great reformers will be lost simply be cause they did not accept the sabbath. Ask if they think William Miller is lost because he never accepted the sabbath. Ask them if they think the billions of Christian Sunday keepers that came before the Advent movement are all lost.

I do not believe the AVERAGE SDA believes as you say. I'll watch for your post I'll be interested in the response. I cannot remember anyone in my church saying all sunday keepers are lost. I'm not sure why an informed SDA would say such a thing.

All churches have their individual ill-informed members just like I have heard some Pentecosts say if you don't speak in tongues you can't be saved. Ridiculous

Clean and unclean animals were first given in Moses time. I choose not to eat unclean meats because I feel it is more healthy. not because I think it is a sin. I don't think Man's body has changed alot from Moses time therefore what was unhealthly in his day is likely unhealth now. Some examples: Shell fish, pork=high in cholesterol. Some illnesses are associated with unclean food. Shell fish = hepetitis,cholera, Vibrio parahaemolyticus, Vibrio vulnificus
Pork = cysticercosisetc, Taenia solium,trichinosis etc.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I posted this in another thread on the same topic "SABBATH".

Doctors, Police Officers and those who HAVE to serve on Sabbath Day (Saturday) when we teach that they are to observe their Sabbath Day on the 7th day regardless what day it falls (which means any day of the week).

Mark 3:4
Then Jesus asked them, "Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?" But they remained silent.

Colossians 2:16
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Hebrews 4:9-10 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his.

Genesis 8:4
and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.

Something about the "seventh" in the Bible. Seven is a special number.

Every seven years, settle all debts.
Every seven years, a portion of the farm land is to rest.

Even circumcisions must be performed AFTER 7th day. Genesis 17:12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised.

Leviticus 23:41
Celebrate this as a festival to the LORD for seven days each year. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come; celebrate it in the seventh month.

Leviticus 25:8
[ The Year of Jubilee ] " 'Count off seven sabbaths of years—seven times seven years—so that the seven sabbaths of years amount to a period of forty-nine years.

Leviticus 26:21
" 'If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve.

I can go on and on.

Celebrate Christ's Resurrection: Revelation 1:10
On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet.

Acts 20:7
[ Eutychus Raised From the Dead at Troas ] On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

 

[tall73]

I said I wasn't going to get into a Scripture war because no matter what Scripture is quoted, someone will always be able to interpret it in another way. Someone will always zero in on one little verb form, and it will degrade into a battle of nitpicking. It was NOT because I cannot back up what I say with Scripture. again. And I thoroughly resent your implying that.

First of all, I can attest to the presence of a good number of legalists, remnant-elitists etc. in our midst. Perhaps where Cliff is in Australia they don't have as many. Give thanks. We have them here. They are thoroughly convinced that every Sunday follower is steadfastly ignoring all the Scripture evidence and that they are willfully following the Devil.

Now having said that, I recogize these folks. But it doesn't change the actual debate on the merits of the issue.

GT is a place for comparitive theology. It is a debate forum. If you put your view here you are offering it up for critique. So if you post, and then say you don't want a Scripture war, that won't really fly.

If you wish to avoid a Scripture war, either don't post here, or simply post and then let people make what they will of your post.

Now hopefully the debate stays on a good level, not resorting to barbs at one another. Unfortunately it doesn't always happen.

I come here to discuss details. So it is not a war to me. It is a dialogue I DECIDE to enter. And if I want my point to be accepted, I know I have to back it up with clarification, further Scripture, history if applicable etc.

So please, let's get back to a discussion of the issues. If you have a gripe with the church, we have a forum and you can gripe there. Or you can start a different thread in GT about it. This is not an Adventist Thread. Nor are Old Sage, etc. Adventists, though they are sabbatarians. And I am sure they get tired of getting lumped in with all of the Adventists.

And for our part, it is up to us to avoid the personal comments as well.

 

[Cliff2]

Sounds like you were a pretty ill-informed SDA

I have a suggestion for you. Try going to the adventist forum on this site and ask them if they believe great Christians like Luthar, Wesley, Calvin and the other great reformers will be lost simply be cause they did not accept the sabbath. Ask if they think William Miller is lost because he never accepted the sabbath. Ask them if they think the billions of Christian Sunday keepers that came before the Advent movement are all lost.

I do not believe the AVERAGE SDA believes as you say. I'll watch for your post I'll be interested in the response. I cannot remember anyone in my church saying all sunday keepers are lost. I'm not sure why an informed SDA would say such a thing.

All churches have their individual ill-informed members just like I have heard some Pentecosts say if you don't speak in tongues you can't be saved. Ridiculous

Clean and unclean animals were first given in Moses time. I choose not to eat unclean meats because I feel it is more healthy. not because I think it is a sin. I don't think Man's body has changed alot from Moses time therefore what was unhealthly in his day is likely unhealth now. Some examples: Shell fish, pork=high in cholesterol. Some illnesses are associated with unclean food. Shell fish = hepetitis,cholera, Vibrio parahaemolyticus, Vibrio vulnificus
Pork = cysticercosisetc, Taenia solium,trichinosis etc.

You are sounding right to me.

 

[cruztacean]

Tall73: You are correct about my personal ax to grind, and I accept the rebuke. Unfortunately, my "gripe with the church" is probably too big to repair. It covers far more than the Sabbath. As for not all Sabbatarians being SDA's, you're right about that. The ones I met most recently were downright insulted if you connected them with SDA's, but they took the same "you're going to hell because you go to church on the wrong day" approach that the SDA's I knew did. I'm so tired of hearing it. I mean, the Scripture does say, "Let no man judge you," with respect to the Sabbath day, and I'm just plain sick of being judged. So the little smug remark about, "Well, of course you don't want a Scripture war," the underlying hint being, "because you're unarmed," got my back arched. That hasn't been apologized for yet, nor has the "you're ill-informed" from the same person, because I'm reporting what I saw happen. (And I'M making personal comments?) People who may be trying to win me back to their church aren't using an approach that works for me.

 

[Cliff2]

Tall73: You are correct about my personal ax to grind, and I accept the rebuke. Unfortunately, my "gripe with the church" is probably too big to repair. It covers far more than the Sabbath. As for not all Sabbatarians being SDA's, you're right about that. The ones I met most recently were downright insulted if you connected them with SDA's, but they took the same "you're going to hell because you go to church on the wrong day" approach that the SDA's I knew did. I'm so tired of hearing it. I mean, the Scripture does say, "Let no man judge you," with respect to the Sabbath day, and I'm just plain sick of being judged. So the little smug remark about, "Well, of course you don't want a Scripture war," the underlying hint being, "because you're unarmed," got my back arched. That hasn't been apologized for yet, nor has the "you're ill-informed" from the same person, because I'm reporting what I saw happen. (And I'M making personal comments?) People who may be trying to win me back to their church aren't using an approach that works for me.

You have your axe to grind and a gripe with the Church. No problem about that.

There are very few in the world today that does not have something like you have to work out.

If we keep to the Bible there is no support for any day that is not the 7th day.

If you can come up with a text that says different then I am more than willing to look at them.

 

[shadowmoses]

The sabbath day,the 4th commandment ayy.
Is it a fact that every one of the 10 commandments should be held to importance.Is it a fact that breaking one means you break them all.
Well this discussion isn't about facts ,its about possibilities.

You either try to keep all ten commandments correctly or you don't.
You either consider the sabbath day important and hold it important on saturday or you don't.
So lets talk facts.What is a fact? A fact is something that leaves no room for possibilities.A fact is something proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
Is it a fact that sunday is the sabbath day?
Is it a fact that since jesus arose that day that became the sabbath day when there was never any direct transference of the solemnity of saturday to sunday in the bible. No these aren't facts because they leave so much room for possiblities and cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.God never sanctified the first day,we remember the sabbath day out of his creation .The first day was never called the sabbath day,but clearly seen is the ordaining of the seventh.

The only facts I can be sure of .The only ones is this.
-God worked 6 days (1,2,3,4,5,6,)
and rested on the 7th day and called it the
sabbath day.This doesn't mean you make
your own cycle.This means you keep one day
holy saturday.
-He gave us 10 commandments to follow.In it a commandment reminding us to never to forget that the sabbath shall be kept one one day/7th day.
-jesus kept it on saturday,so did his apostles,on one day,which was saturday.His apostles were keeping it after he had perished.Think about it most of the books are written long after the events occured,but yet every writer never alludes to sunday being the sabbath.read the bible and think about that.
-Early christianity did keep it on saturday until the roman catholic church changed the day.
So with all that being said above.Is it justifiable ,is it commendable to say sunday is a holy day when really you have to look no further than the ten commandments,it isn't.


For most people they beleive in something so strongly or can't see doubt in what they beleive in.So they go only on what they believe.For example most of you reading will probably beleive in the importance of keeping sunday holy.Why?because the whole world goes by sunday,so you tell yourselves that must be right,you tell yourselves that must be a fact ;but is it?The bible proves otherwise,you only have to open your mind up to it,those strong beleivers in sunday make sure your not reading scripture only to find sense in what you beleive ,go by its truth,or in other words don't just read scripture only looking for truth in sunday.

 

[ThreeAM]

Tall73: You are correct about my personal ax to grind, and I accept the rebuke. Unfortunately, my "gripe with the church" is probably too big to repair. It covers far more than the Sabbath. As for not all Sabbatarians being SDA's, you're right about that. The ones I met most recently were downright insulted if you connected them with SDA's, but they took the same "you're going to hell because you go to church on the wrong day" approach that the SDA's I knew did. I'm so tired of hearing it. I mean, the Scripture does say, "Let no man judge you," with respect to the Sabbath day, and I'm just plain sick of being judged. So the little smug remark about, "Well, of course you don't want a Scripture war," the underlying hint being, "because you're unarmed," got my back arched. That hasn't been apologized for yet, nor has the "you're ill-informed" from the same person, because I'm reporting what I saw happen. (And I'M making personal comments?) People who may be trying to win me back to their church aren't using an approach that works for me.

If you are going to quote me with quotation marks please at least quote me correctly.

If I were in your position I would not want to get into a "scripture war" either.

Knowing both sides of the argument I feel there is alot more evidence that God wants us to be obedient to his law. I believe it is God's Law the Ten Commandments that God has written on our hearts. I believe sanctification is the process of becoming more obedient to God as we grow in our Christian experience. I TRUELY would not want to be in the postion of explaining away God's commandments..

Sounds like you were a pretty ill-informed SDA

As I mentioned, I was a Seventh-day Adventist, and as such I've heard every Saturday argument there is. "We're saved, and you're not, because we go to church on the correct day." No one is going to indoctrinate me back into it.

So much for "we're right and everyone else is wrong" not being SDA doctrine.

While grinding your axe you made statements that a well informed Adventist would not likely say. Then you implied the bad information you heard was SDA doctrine a "Saturday argument". I had the choice to believe you were ill-informed (given very bad information) and thus mistaken or either purposely misrepresenting what the SDA church teaches. I doubt you would purposely misrepresent things so it sounds that you were ill-informed by nominal SDAs if you are reporting correctly as I assume you are. I do however wonder if you are misquoting what you have heard in the past like you have misquoted me or even like you misquoted yourself? It is much better to research the church teaching yourself and correct other members when they make ill-informed statements to you rather than becoming the victim of bad information. One of the basic teachings of the SDA Church is we believe that God has his people in many other churches also. My uncle and aunt were baptists and fully expect them to be in heaven. My grandmother was a strong member of the Christian church I hope to meet her for the first time in heaven also.

If you have an axe to grind with me or with the Adventist Church please at least do it acurately and fairly.

Peace

 

[oldsage]

Nope your wrong! I will stick with my Exegesis.....always have, always will.

umm, you didn't do any 'exegesis'. You gave no comment on the surrounding passages, you didn't speak about the langauge, you didn't speak about the audience, the writers purpose, the issues in the context of the surrounding passages. You just stated your belief...and that is fine, but you shouldn't call it exegesis because you offered none of that.

Blessings,
Chris

 

[tall73]

And I'M making personal comments?.

No, I simply meant both sides could stick to the subject of the thread and the Adventists can try to not make comments. I am glad you went ahead with a new thread. God bless.

 

[Cliff2]

First of all, I can attest to the presence of a good number of legalists, remnant-elitists etc. in our midst. Perhaps where Cliff is in Australia they don't have as many. Give thanks. We have them here. They are thoroughly convinced that every Sunday follower is steadfastly ignoring all the Scripture evidence and that they are willfully following the Devil.

Now having said that, I recogize these folks. But it doesn't change the actual debate on the merits of the issue.

GT is a place for comparitive theology. It is a debate forum. If you put your view here you are offering it up for critique. So if you post, and then say you don't want a Scripture war, that won't really fly.

If you wish to avoid a Scripture war, either don't post here, or simply post and then let people make what they will of your post.

Now hopefully the debate stays on a good level, not resorting to barbs at one another. Unfortunately it doesn't always happen.

I come here to discuss details. So it is not a war to me. It is a dialogue I DECIDE to enter. And if I want my point to be accepted, I know I have to back it up with clarification, further Scripture, history if applicable etc.

So please, let's get back to a discussion of the issues. If you have a gripe with the church, we have a forum and you can gripe there. Or you can start a different thread in GT about it. This is not an Adventist Thread. Nor are Old Sage, etc. Adventists, though they are sabbatarians. And I am sure they get tired of getting lumped in with all of the Adventists.

And for our part, it is up to us to avoid the personal comments as well.

Just to put the record straight we do have them.

As you know our numbers down here are no where as large as what you have in America.

So it means we also do not have as many who are on the edge of Adventism.

 

[rstrats]

ThreeAM,

re: "A Thursday crucifixion does not match up with the first example of Passover-Unleavened Bread-Firstfuits given in the Bible. The only correct Type-Antitype match would be a Friday Crucifixion Nisan 14th and Saturday Feast of Unleavened Bread Nisan 15th and Sunday Resurrection Nisan 16th."

Are you saying that the moment of resurrection fulfilled the antitype of Firstfruits and not when the Messiah presented himself (the wave sheave) to the Father?

 

[oldsage]

Yes, I really don't being lumped with a group I don't belong to. For one I don't represent the SDA church and I am sure that if someone thinks I am SDA and I say thing contrary to their doctrine, it will shed an incorrect light in their church and position, the same with me, if I am labled an SDA then my beliefs are not correctly represented.

The subject of the Sabbath is one that is independent of any denomination, what many fail to realize is this topic is much older than the SDA church stemming to the early church.

Oh, well, I guess because the SDA are the most vocal that everyone must think all Sabbatarians are SDA. And the funny thing is when the subject of the Sabbath are brought up they instantly attack all SDA doctrine and leaders, which then leave the rest of us Sabbatarians out of the discussion because it is no longer about the Sabbath but about SDA.

Chris

 

[jochanaan]

Yes, I really don't being lumped with a group I don't belong to.

Nor do I, Chris. Not many people remember that my group, the Seventh Day Baptists, were around two centuries before Ellen White, and that it was a SDB woman, Rachel Oaks Preston, that convinced a group of Adventists/Millerites that Saturday was the Biblical Sabbath.

Remind me: Which group do you associate with?

 

[BrightCandle]

Nor do I, Chris. Not many people remember that my group, the Seventh Day Baptists, were around two centuries before Ellen White, and that it was a SDB woman, Rachel Oaks Preston, that convinced a group of Adventists/Millerites that Saturday was the Biblical Sabbath.

Remind me: Which group do you associate with?

Happy Sabbath Jochanann!

Just curious, about how many SDBs are there now world wide, and in what country is the largest concentration of SDBs members located?

 

[oldsage]

Nor do I, Chris. Not many people remember that my group, the Seventh Day Baptists, were around two centuries before Ellen White, and that it was a SDB woman, Rachel Oaks Preston, that convinced a group of Adventists/Millerites that Saturday was the Biblical Sabbath.

Remind me: Which group do you associate with?

I fall more inline with the Messanics than other groups. I admire the SDB because of their early roots, they were persecuted quite a bit for their beliefs.

Chris

 

[oldsage]

Happy Sabbath Jochanann!

Just curious, about how many SDBs are there now world wide, and in what country is the largest concentration of SDBs members located?

If I am not mistaken, I believe that the state of Rhode Island was founded by the SDB, the first Governor of Rhode Island was a Sabbatarian.

Chris

 

[jochanaan]

If I am not mistaken, I believe that the state of Rhode Island was founded by the SDB, the first Governor of Rhode Island was a Sabbatarian.

Not quite, Chris. Roger Williams, the first Governor of Rhode Island colony, was not a Sabbathkeeper, but he was a Baptist and later friendly towards Sabbathkeepers. The first Seventh Day Baptist Church in the American colonies was formed in Rhode Island in 1671; the building still exists and is a local historical landmark.

BrightCandle, I don't know the latest figures for Seventh Day Baptists worldwide, but I do know that we are on every continent except Antarctica. There are about five thousand SDBs in the United States and Canada, and I've heard there are even more in India and perhaps three thousand in Brazil. For more information you can visit the Seventh Day Baptist General Conference website at http://www.seventhdaybaptist.org/7db/Default_EN.asp

Shabat Shalom!