Which Day of the Week is the Sabbath? (2)

[ThreeAM]

Faith in Jesus Christ........ is the only right standing a person can attain with God.

Why should anybody need to establish what day the Sabbath is ? Observance of Law is only for those who are yet to relise that the purpose of the law is to bring the individual to the relisation that he is condemed and under a curse, trying to live a law based life.

What a wonderfull job the Law does of bringing us to Jesus.... Mr Death brings us to Mr Life...... and we turn to a higher source for daily living.... Jesus Christ.

Grace and Peace to you always

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, AND the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. [Part of the Ten Commandments]

Keeping the Commandments will not get you into heaven, salvation is a gift from Christ's grace. But those who are saved will obey Christ because the are saved. When we love God we want to keep His commandments.


The curse of the Law is its death penalty. If we are Christ's we are no longer under the death penalty because Christ paid that penalty for us. We are no longer under the curse of the law if we belong to Christ.

 

[Cliff2]

Keeping the Commandments will not get you into heaven, salvation is a gift from Christ's grace. But those who are saved will obey Christ because the are saved. When we love God we want to keep His commandments.

Excellent reply.

 

[oldsage]

I'm using KJV here, because most Christians recognize it, and some don't recognize other versions. The verses are isolated and badly out of context; I recommend further research than I can convey in one single post.

Colossians 2
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

I just addressed this passage a couple pages ago and showed how it should be read.

Romans 14
5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

This was addressed about 1000 post ago

Acts 2
41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart

Acts 2:41 is referring to the day of Pentecost, which this verse...

Leviticus 23
16Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

...shows to be on the first day of the week. I was a Seventh-day Adventist for a number of years, and let me tell you, when I realized that 3,000 people had been baptized and added to the church on what now would be called a Sunday, I was so shocked I had to take to my bed! SDA's can write off Acts 20:7 as a Saturday night, not a Sunday morning, but it can't be said for Acts 2:41, because Peter's sermon indicates it is 9:00 AM.

I have never been an Adventist, so, I am not sure what shocks ya'll. But people are added to the church every day, this has nothing to do with the Sabbath. Did you know that the traditional day of the giving of the Law at Sinai is on Pentecost? As visionary pointed out, it is neat that the Law was given on the same day as the Holy Spirit. But still, what does any of it have to do with keeping the Sabbath? Acts 2:41 has nothing to do with the Sabbath or sunday, it does have to do with Pentecost.

The seventh-day Sabbath was a shadow of things to come,

When was this shadow fulfilled? You said 'was a shadow' the bible says 'are a shadow' meaning they were still a shadow at the time of the writing of the epistle and has yet to have a fulfillment.

Jesus said, "I will give you rest." When He enters our hearts, He brings the fulfillment of the law with Him, and we carry the Sabbath around with us.

This still doesn't address the issue of keeping the Sabbath. For one we can't carry the Sabbath around, that is like saying I carry monday around. The Sabbath isn't material, nor does resting in Christ=keeping the Sabbath.

Yes, the Sabbath of Creation Week would be today's Saturday. But, if I am interpreting Scripture correctly, there is no longer one specific day of worship. Today's Sabbath is 24/7, in our hearts.

Here is the thing, you can't read the Sabbath commandment and say you keep that in your heart. How do you keep it in your heart? What does that mean? How can you make a living and keep a 24/7 Sabbath? There is just too many theological loopholes that has to be gone through to make this type of theology fit.

Blessings,
Chris

 

[Blades]

Paul went to great lengths to establish the Law...... because the Law is to be upheld in all its terror, and and seen for what it is... the condemer of all men placing them under a curse... not watered down or candy coated version, like most of Christendom today preaches it, leading people to believe that they could actualy full fill it.

The Law is good if it is used Lawfully and to whom it pertains.... this is why Paul had to go to such lengths to establish the full extent of the Law.

Once the Law has killed you and buried you in Christ.... it no longer applies to you..... why..... the Law was not made for a righteouse man, we are above the Law.

Will you always act like the righteouse person you are... probably not.... but dont worry about it... because he who began a good work in you will continue to do that until the day of Christ Jesus.

Grace and peace to you always.

 

[Cliff2]

Once the Law has killed you and buried you in Christ.... it no longer applies to you..... why..... the Law was not made for a righteouse man, we are above the Law.(Newbie)

Where do you get that from?

 

[Blades]

Ok lets go into greater detail.....

I've been accused more times than I can count on my fingers and toes of being an "antinomianist." For those of you who have not had the pleasure of having this label slapped onto you, it means someone who is against the Law of God. You have esteemed yourself in the eyes of your audience as one who is opposed to the holy, righteous, and good Law of God. Quite a badge of honor, eh?
Well, as long as we are playing around with labels, I have a confession to make to all of you who stand firm with us in proclaiming the gospel of the grace of God…I am actually a "pronomianist." That’s right. I am for the Law! But not like these wimpy, so-called legalists we all run into in our churches, in home Bible studies, at the office, in our neighborhoods, and in our families who mix a little law in with a little grace. Nope, I’m talking about the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of death, and the letter that kills. You know, the Law that God sent so that sinning might increase (Rom. 5:20), so that sins might be defined more clearly (Gal. 3:19), so that all men would be under a curse (Gal. 3:10), and so that the power of sin might work through it to kill you and me (Rom. 7:11). That’s the Law that the Scriptures speak of…the holy, righteous, good condemner and killer of all men. Like Paul, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good (Rom. 7:16) and I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man (Rom. 7:22). Why have such a view of the Law? Because it is only when the Law has shown us our desperate need for Christ, both for salvation and for daily living, that we will see how amazing His grace truly is!
Those who are the so-called "legalists" of today, even throughout history, have fallen woefully short of portraying the thoroughness of the Law and the hopelessness of trying to attain, through self-effort, the level of righteousness it demands. If they had not fallen short of holding it up fully for all to see, they themselves would have turned from their self-righteousness through works to His righteousness by faith.
Many of you have heard the term, "cheap grace," that legalists will often hang on those who seek to proclaim the pure gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24). In fact, it is those very accusers who have cheapened the Law of God to such a degree that most Christians think it is actually possible for us to fulfill it. Sadly, therefore, when the listener does not see the impossibility of living a law-based, Christian life (an oxymoron if there ever was one!), he will not see his need of Christ as life each and every day.
There is only one man who has ever or will ever fulfill the Law and He is Christ! Even as a born-again, new creation in Christ, you cannot, through your performance, fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law. Have you come to that conclusion yet? Has He humbled you to see that it is only through Christ’s fulfillment of the Law that we are credited with the same? Not through performance, but through identification with Him. Christ’s perfect, total, 100% fulfillment of the Law has been accounted to you.
If we teach that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law (Rom. 3:28), do we then nullify (set aside) the law by this faith? Not at all (may it never be!)! We uphold the law (Rom. 3:31). The word uphold (NIV) or establish (NAS) means to make stable, to hold up, and to present something clearly for what it is. Paul is answering the cherry-picking legalists ready to accuse him of heresy and anti-nomianism with the astounding proclamation that he is a pronomianist (my word). You can bet that there was some jaw-dropping and double-taking going on when his audiences read or heard that statement!
I completely agree with the apostle Paul that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully (1 Tim. 1:8). We should be for the Law, just like Paul. But we should also realize that Paul believed (a.k.a. the Holy Spirit’s declaration through Paul) that the Law is good only if it is used properly and for those to whom it pertains. To use the Law lawfully means to make sure that the full extent of the Law is proclaimed. In other words, we are not to candy-coat or water-down the Law, rather we are to show it in all its terror as a condemner and killer of all men. But once it has killed you, you no longer have any relationship to it. It has done its work. The Law has shown you your hopelessness in trying to earn a right standing with Holy God. It has escorted you to the Cross where, the old you, in the flesh and under a curse, has been crucified and buried with Christ. This is the job of the Law. It exists to show every man a hopeless sinner so that they might turn to Christ for salvation.
What a wonderful role the Law plays in ushering us to Jesus. It is Mr. Death whose goal it is to bring us to Mr. Life. Paul went to great lengths to establish the Law (Rom. 3:31) so that it would fulfill the purpose that God had for it. But once the Law has completed its mission, once all is accomplished (Matthew 5:18), we are to move on to a far more glorious Source for daily living…Christ himself! How is it that we can say that the Law does not pertain to those of us who are now in Christ? Because the fact (is) that law is not made for a righteous man (1 Tim. 1:9). Who is a righteous man? The one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness (Rom. 4:5).
Have you believed in Jesus, the one who justifies the ungodly? Yes? Then you are righteous! And since you are righteous, the Law is no longer applicable to you. Do you always behave like the righteous person you now are in Him? Probably not, but don’t worry because He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus (Phil. 1:6).
We have dummied-down Christianity to some degree from a grace-based, supernatural life lived by the Spirit to a law-based, natural life lived through our flesh. Why is it that having once been convinced that the Law could not make us holy and righteous, we now believe that it can? When we received the Spirit of God at salvation, we received every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 1:3), including His perfect righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21). The Law could never make anyone righteous, but once its' demands lead us to faith in Christ, there is no more righteousness to obtain. We have been made perfectly righteous because we have been joined to the righteous One. Sadly, the apostle Paul would oppose many of us in the body of Christ to our face even today for our mixing of law and grace, the works of the flesh and the works of the Spirit, just as he did both Peter and the Galatians years ago. Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh (Gal. 3:3)?
The way to overcome the flesh is not to dissect and analyze it, neither to commit through self-effort to defeat it, neither to impose rigid restrictions and laws on yourself to avoid it, but rather to direct your full attention to the Overcomer. When you choose Christ as the object of your desire and the one upon whom you fully depend, He is faithful to produce the self-control you so desperately seek (Gal. 5:23). The Law cannot control the flesh, it only enflames it and gives it a stage and a platform on which to perform.
Do you want to stop sinning? Then stop imposing upon yourself (and perhaps many others) a law-based mode of operation because, friends, the Law came in that the transgression might increase (Rom. 5:20)! Yes, you read that right…INCREASE! Does this not strike you as both tragic and ironic at the same time? The very thing we have thought for years and years would surely curb our sin appetite actually ensures that we will do more of it! It is not the law of God that is instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in this present age…zealous for good deeds. It is the g-r-a-c-e of God (Titus 2:11-14)!
The harder that you and I sweat, strive, and work to become righteous, the louder we shout to God that we do not believe that His righteousness, given to us in Christ, is enough. Our unbelief then leads us back up onto the law treadmill, even though we have already died to that (the Law) by which we were bound (Rom. 7:6). The Law is done with you and you must choose to be done with it. The power of sin will do all it can to persuade you that even just a little law here and there is good for you. Don’t buy it! If you do, you are headed for wretched man (Rom. 7:24) territory. The Law will not set you free from relying upon your flesh. It is only through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom. 7:24-25)!
You are now called to a walk of faith, not works; trust, not trying; grace, not law. If you will but give Jesus the chance, He will prove Himself faithful. Why? Because He is!! Friend, the behavior you long to exhibit in the course of your day is only possible through faith in Christ, not the works of the Law. Keep that in mind the next time you are tempted to smother a loved one under your unique version of law. It's time for some of us to cry, "uncle!!!" In fact, if you are not convinced that a law-based lifestyle is a sure ticket to frustration and burn-out, then you need to take a closer look at the righteous requirements of the Law.
Let me offer you a few more words of encouragement to serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter (Rom. 7:6). If I were to ask you if you would like to be under a curse of death, most of you would likely say, ‘thanks for the offer but I’m afraid I’ll have to pass.’ Wise move. Now, do you know what the offer is from God to those who insist that the Christian life is to be lived by works of obedience to the law? Are you ready? A curse. All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law" (Gal. 3:10). The Book of the Law is the first five books of the Old Testament. Have you read them lately and, more importantly, have you continued to do everything written in them? If this proclamation from the word of God does not now bury you 6-feet deep in regard to your self-effort to live for God, it is time that it should.
If you are trying to live up to the righteous requirements of the law given to Israel, it’s time for you to leave it all behind. You, the new man, would not want to commit adultery in your earthly marriage, would you? Then, why would you continue day in and day out committing adultery in your spiritual relationship with Christ? You are married to Him now. You are no longer married to Mr. Law (Rom. 7:1-6). Stop cheating on Jesus! Rest in what He has already done to make you righteous and be confident that He is always at work in you now to do as He pleases. He is faithful and He will do it.
Why would anyone want to try to enslave themselves all over again to a system of living that increases the likelihood that they will sin, leads over and over again to condemnation, and whose only reward is death? Jesus gave His life to redeem(ed) us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us (Gal. 3:13). What are we saying when we now place that same yoke of slavery that He set us free from back on our necks in an effort to live godly lives? 'Thanks, Jesus, but no thanks?!'
The Law cannot make anyone holy and righteous; it can only point out to you day after miserable day that, in Adam, you are not, and yet must be, holy and righteous. Continue life now that you are a saint in a humble attitude of faith (Col. 2:6). Do you see why we should be proponents of the Law? The Law is good! Why? Because it leads us to the only Source of the perfect holiness and righteousness that God requires of each man and woman…Jesus! But once the Law has achieved its goal, not only is Mr. Law through with you, you are to be through with him.
The law is a ministry of condemnation for those who are in Adam, but for those who are in Christ there is therefore now no condemnation. Why? Because we no longer have any relationship to the Law. The Law has served its purpose. It has showed us our need for Christ and killed us. If you are in Christ (a.k.a. a child of God through faith in Jesus Christ), you have been released (past tense, done deal, never to occur again, actual truth, not positional, judicial, parental, etc.) from the Law (Rom. 7:6). How did He release us? Through death. Not the death of the Law, but our death in Christ (Gal. 2:19; Rom. 7:4). The Law is the ministry of condemnation (2 Cor. 3:9) and the ministry of death that came with glory (2 Cor. 3:7). The Law of God is glorious when it is used for the purpose for which it was intended. But as glorious as the Law is, there is another whose glory leaves the Law in its dust. It is the ministry of righteousness (through faith in Christ) that abounds in glory (2 Cor. 3:9). If you are in Christ, what had glory (the Law), in (your) case has no glory on of account of the glory (Christ, your righteousness) that surpasses it (2 Cor. 3:10).
Friends, let’s not compromise or sheepishly present an abbreviated, abridged version of the Law. Hold it up to its fullest extent for all to gaze at in terror. The Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good (Rom. 7:12) and it works beautifully to prepare its listeners for the amazing grace of God. Don’t give anyone an opportunity to accuse you of being anti-nomian. Give them the Law with both barrels, then offer them His grace with both arms.

The Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we maybe justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor (Gal. 3:24-25).

Grace and Peace to you always!​

 

[Cliff2]

Have you believed in Jesus, the one who justifies the ungodly? Yes? Then you are righteous! And since you are righteous, the Law is no longer applicable to you.

That is where you have fallen through the hoop.

It does not matter of you are righteous or wicked, the law has not been done away with.

Let me stress here very loudly that the law has not saved anyone. No ones righteousness saves. It is only Christ's righteousness that saves.

 

[linssue55]

Ok, what is it you call exegesis? This looks more like commentary.
Lets look at some of the surrounding passages to see if it is talking about Jewish Torah observances.

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.
Colossians 2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,

For one this doesn't sound like anything Jewish, empty deceit according to human tradition, elemental spirits fo the world. Also, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels.

This isn't what the Torah teaches, so we can discount it is about Jewish legalism.
So, from reading the surrounding passages we can see it is talking about people coming and wanting them to 'worship angels' and follow some form of 'asceticism'.

Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but let the body of Christ.

Now here Paul is telling the Colossians not to let those who want to get them to practice asceticism tell them how to eat or drink, or how to keep the feast, new moons or Sabbath. Which is interesting because this indicates they were already keeping those feasts and Sabbaths. Paul goes on to say to them they are shadows of 'things to come' meaning they are shadows of something that is yet future from Paul's time. The rituals that God has His people act out where shadows…plays so to speak to teach them the story, and in Paul's time they were still teaching. Now remember, Paul said they are shadows of THINGS TO COME something still that hasn't happen yet.

Them Paul says "but the body of Christ" I added the word 'let' to clarify the passage. I know some translations translate it as, "but the body is of Christ" or "but the substance is of Christ" But I don't see any reason for it except translator bias.

τὸ δὲ σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ

this section simply says "but the body of Christ" there isn't any verb here and one isn't needed to make the sentence grammatically correct. But translating it as "but let the body of Christ" is simply saying, don't let those who practice asceticism tell you what to do, but let the Church tell you. This is the function of the Church to help one another and correct one another and to proclaim sound doctrine.

Of course now, I am sure you understand that the last clause of verse 17 is 100% of the time translated as the 'body of Christ' and this is the ONLY place it deviates from that standard translation. Now from what I have read you said, you study from the original languages, so you should be able to verify I am correct in this point.

So, do you have an answer for the context of the passage, dealing with those practicing asceticism, with that part in verse 17 showing that those shadows have yet to be fulfilled and with the last clause of 17 and how it should be translated?



This carries no weight in this discussion, without comment on what you mean by what you post it has no value.

Blessings
Chris

Nope your wrong! I will stick with my Exegesis.....always have, always will.

 

[linssue55]

Well you are entitled to you opinion even if you are wrong. Personally I don't think to much of dispensationalism or its author Darby. I'm also not big on very large cut and paste posts.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

No copy or paste, from my personal folders. Only by staying in fellowship can one be 100% righteous, for the Holy Spirit is working through us. The law was abolished and was replaced by the filling of the Holy Spirit. The law was works, works of the flesh, will be burned.

Gal 5---
3~~ For I keep on witnessing again to every one of you
that is circumcised {under the Jewish ritual}
that he keeps on being a debtor to do the whole law.

4~~ You all {legalistic Jews}
have become null and void
from the ultimate source of Christ
whosoever are being vindicated
by means of the law {religious crowd}
you have drifted off course from grace.

Gal.3:13~~

Christ has once and for all
redeemed us out from the curse of the law,
(for it is written {Deuteronomy 21:22-23},
"Under a curse is every one
who keeps on hanging on The Wood")
having become a curse for us.


If you chosse to work for God by using the OT law, go right ahead.........but guaranteed your life will be total frustration, and misery.....for you have denied "Grace", and replaced it with the law. Your choice, your business.

Rom 7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.


(Rom.10:4).
- For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. (Rom.6:14).


Since the Lord Jesus Christ fulfills the Law by His person and work, believers are under a new law; the obligation to walk by the Spirit of Life through faith (Rom. 8:2-4). If we are led by the Spirit, then we are not under the Law (Gal. 5:18).

The believer in Christ who functions under the filling of the Holy Spirit (1 John 1:9) takes up where Christ left off and fulfills the Law. Believers in the church age are under a higher law of spirituality.


Rom.8:2-4; Gal.5:18,22,23; ICor.13.

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.


Your choice.........

 

[ThreeAM]

No copy or paste, from my personal folders. Only by staying in fellowship can one be 100% righteous, for the Holy Spirit is working through us. The law was abolished and was replaced by the filling of the Holy Spirit. The law was works, works of the flesh, will be burned.

Gal 5---
3~~ For I keep on witnessing again to every one of you
that is circumcised {under the Jewish ritual}
that he keeps on being a debtor to do the whole law.

4~~ You all {legalistic Jews}
have become null and void
from the ultimate source of Christ
whosoever are being vindicated
by means of the law {religious crowd}
you have drifted off course from grace.

Gal.3:13~~

Christ has once and for all
redeemed us out from the curse of the law,
(for it is written {Deuteronomy 21:22-23},
"Under a curse is every one
who keeps on hanging on The Wood")
having become a curse for us.


If you chosse to work for God by using the OT law, go right ahead.........but guaranteed your life will be total frustration, and misery.....for you have denied "Grace", and replaced it with the law. Your choice, your business.

Rom 7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.


(Rom.10:4).
- For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. (Rom.6:14).


Since the Lord Jesus Christ fulfills the Law by His person and work, believers are under a new law; the obligation to walk by the Spirit of Life through faith (Rom. 8:2-4). If we are led by the Spirit, then we are not under the Law (Gal. 5:18).

The believer in Christ who functions under the filling of the Holy Spirit (1 John 1:9) takes up where Christ left off and fulfills the Law. Believers in the church age are under a higher law of spirituality.


Rom.8:2-4; Gal.5:18,22,23; ICor.13.

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.


Your choice.........

As I have said before the curse of the law is the death penalty of the Law. If you are Christ's he has paid that death penalty for you. That does not however alow us to break the law. If we love God we should be obedient.

1 john 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Deu 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:


Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:


Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[jochanaan]

Ok lets go into greater detail.....

I have just written a post in the thread "The Law of Moses not applies?" on this General Theology forum. Very briefly, it was the Law's accusation against us, with its penalty of death, that was "nailed to the Cross" (Colossians 2:14), not the Law itself. The Law, which before our acceptance of Jesus was our accuser, now becomes a guide to good living with the Holy Spirit's help. It holds no terror for believers, for terror is of punishment; rather, in loving, grateful response to God for Jesus' having died in our place, we willingly obey His good and simple and righteous commands, which do not burden us but rather relieve us of many burdens; not bargaining for change as a rebellious child, but with the spirit of obedience and joy.

 

[visionary]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jochanaan again.

you said that so well...

 

[Cliff2]

I have just written a post in the thread "The Law of Moses not applies?" on this General Theology forum. Very briefly, it was the Law's accusation against us, with its penalty of death, that was "nailed to the Cross" (Colossians 2:14), not the Law itself. The Law, which before our acceptance of Jesus was our accuser, now becomes a guide to good living with the Holy Spirit's help. It holds no terror for believers, for terror is of punishment; rather, in loving, grateful response to God for Jesus' having died in our place, we willingly obey His good and simple and righteous commands, which do not burden us but rather relieve us of many burdens; not bargaining for change as a rebellious child, but with the spirit of obedience and joy.

I like your point about the law not being nailed to the cross. Because if the law had of been nailed to the cross as many like to think so. There would be no more sin as the Bible says that "sin is trangression of the law".

There just has to be a law.

 

[cruztacean]

If I were in your position I would not want to get into a "scripture war" either.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, AND the faith of Jesus.

I took a while to respond to this. I'd hit Quote, then hit Cancel.... Finally I just couldn't let that smug remark go.

What do you mean, "in my position"? I said I wasn't going to get into a Scripture war because no matter what Scripture is quoted, someone will always be able to interpret it in another way. Someone will always zero in on one little verb form, and it will degrade into a battle of nitpicking. It was NOT because I cannot back up what I say with Scripture. again. And I thoroughly resent your implying that.

As for Rev. 14:12, which you quote, it has been repeatedly thrown at me to prove, "See, we meet both of those criteria, so we're the one true church, and the rest of you are wrong." So much for "we're right and everyone else is wrong" not being SDA doctrine.

I learned all I needed to know about Sabbatarians when I was a Seventh-day Adventist. Married to an abusive alcoholic and drug addict, I called a lady from church to come and get me because I was in danger. She wouldn't leave her house because the sun was due to set in two minutes, and the Sabbath must be kept holy.....

Of course I was also counseled to stay with that husband, women submit and all that, but that's another topic.

 

[ThreeAM]

I took a while to respond to this. I'd hit Quote, then hit Cancel.... Finally I just couldn't let that smug remark go.

What do you mean, "in my position"? I said I wasn't going to get into a Scripture war because no matter what Scripture is quoted, someone will always be able to interpret it in another way. Someone will always zero in on one little verb form, and it will degrade into a battle of nitpicking. It was NOT because I cannot back up what I say with Scripture. again. And I thoroughly resent your implying that.

As for Rev. 14:12, which you quote, it has been repeatedly thrown at me to prove, "See, we meet both of those criteria, so we're the one true church, and the rest of you are wrong." So much for "we're right and everyone else is wrong" not being SDA doctrine.

I learned all I needed to know about Sabbatarians when I was a Seventh-day Adventist. Married to an abusive alcoholic and drug addict, I called a lady from church to come and get me because I was in danger. She wouldn't leave her house because the sun was due to set in two minutes, and the Sabbath must be kept holy.....

Of course I was also counseled to stay with that husband, women submit and all that, but that's another topic.

Well you have changed your tune now. Of course we believe we are right that the Ten Comandments are still valid today and you are correct Rev. 14:12 does infact prove it.

But previously you said:

As I mentioned, I was a Seventh-day Adventist, and as such I've heard every Saturday argument there is. "We're saved, and you're not, because we go to church on the correct day." No one is going to indoctrinate me back into it.

That is not the doctrine of the SDA church. We believe people will be responsible for what the know. If a person knowingly chooses to go against God expressed will then the just might have a problem. For example: If you know God does not want you to steal but you continue to steal because you want to steal rather than obey God then that is a problem. If a person didn't realy know God didn't want him steal then God winks at the iniquity until that person learn the truth. Sanctification is growing in faith and obedience becoming more Christ like and putting aside sin when we realize we are sinning. Obedience to God's commandments is a sign of sanctification and that we are in God's grace not a means to salvation.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

If a person desires to fully follow Christ and is willing to do what ever Christ wants them to do then they will be saved even if they didn't get the interpretation right.

We are save by grace not works. God asks us to be obedient if we follow him. Christians who truely love him want to follow him and obey him.

I'm sorry for the "church lady" she with out a doubt was wrong. But to blame the whole church for one stuggling sinner that obviusly has not found her way is also wrong. I know from personal experience that would not have happened in my parent's home nor mine. Probably the lady was making up a very poor excuse not to help because she did not want to get between and angrey abusive spose and a wife something at times the police are reluctant to do. That doesn't make it right though.

As for the "scriptural wars" comment. Its true I I would not want to try to defended a postion that says God's commandments are null and void. There is way to many scriptures that say the oposite like Rev. 14:12 for example.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Peace

 

[cruztacean]

I have not changed my tune. What is the difference between "We're right and you're wrong" versus "We're saved and you're not?" I'd always been taught it's the same thing. In all fairness, though, it's not just the SDA's. Other denominations also claim they are the ONLY correct one, and they all can pull out their handful of Bible verses to prove it. Rev. 14:12 does not "prove" to me that just because your church has the words "Seventh-day anything" above the door, and meets on Saturday, it is the one true church.

 

[ThreeAM]

I have not changed my tune. What is the difference between "We're right and you're wrong" versus "We're saved and you're not?" I'd always been taught it's the same thing. In all fairness, though, it's not just the SDA's. Other denominations also claim they are the ONLY correct one, and they all can pull out their handful of Bible verses to prove it. Rev. 14:12 does not "prove" to me that just because your church has the words "Seventh-day anything" above the door, and meets on Saturday, it is the one true church.

Well as I said before SDA's believe many many other Christians from many other denominations will be saved including Sundaykeepers. We belive that many Christian sincerly do not realize the Sabbath is important. God winks at their ignorance. Of course every chruch thinks they are right and so do we. What would be the point in going to a church who knew they treaching error?

Well Revelation 14:12 prove the saints will Keep God's Commandment AND have faith in Christ both. As long as you have both of those you will be one of those saints someday. You only have to ask do I really have both of them. Do I realy have faith in Christ which leads me to obdience of God's Commandments?

 

[Oblio]

What the heck is a Sundaykeeper ??

The difference between Saturdarians and other Christians is that we don't even ask who will be saved WRT what day they worship. In reality, we shouldn't ask who will be saved, but rather focus on our own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[cruztacean]

I understand that SDA's CLAIM to believe there will be saints from every denomination. But my experience with them as far as what they act as if they DO believe is quite different. I have observed more than one shaking their heads after speaking to a happy, joy-filled Christian from another denomination, and say, "There's nothing sadder than someone who thinks they're saved and isn't." And after one Bible class, in which it was noted from Mrs. White's writings that Satan will continue to be punished long after others have been obliterated, someone observed, "And right there with him will be all those Sunday people." No one refuted the statement.

So does the official church literature say that there will be saved Christians from other denominations? Yes. Does the average SDA actually believe that? Not in my experience.

Jesus did say, "If you love me, keep my commandments." He also said, Matthew 18:9 "If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." Ouch! Ever look at something you shouldn't have looked at? Then I assume you no longer have both eyes, since you want to keep Jesus' commandments to the letter.

If people want to nitpick down to verb tenses and prepositions, how many are willing to take Matthew 18:9 literally?

"The commandments of God" in Rev. 14:12, to me, is not synonymous with "the ten commandments." There are many, many other commandments in the Bible besides those ten. Your church's insistence on the Levitical diet shows that you adhere to other commandments besides the ten. But James tells us that if we keep the whole law but offend in one point, we are as guilty as if we'd broken every one. Every SDA in the world has used James 2:10 as a scriptural hand grenade against the rest of us. Is "the whole law" just the ten commandments, or is it "the whole law?" If it refers only to the ten commandments, then why not eat a pork chop? Dietary restrictions are not in the ten commandments.

Now, one last thing about Scripture wars. I think the whole mental image is ridiculous.

"The Bible says this!" (pin-pulling, toss, whistling sound, explosion)
"No, it really says THIS!" (more of the same)

Paul did talk about spiritual warfare, but I don't think we were supposed to use it on each other.

 

[Cliff2]

So does the official church literature say that there will be saved Christians from other denominations? Yes. Does the average SDA actually believe that? Not in my experience. (cruztacean)

I am sorry that you have heard such things as I can assure you that where I live such things are not said or heard.

Perhaps it is because they maynot have been exposed to what the SDA Church really believes. I do not really know why they would think like that.