Which Church?

[WAB]

Paul only preached the gospel of the GRACE of God. HE alone was given the MYSTERY truths for we of this age.

You did not answer my question! If Peter and the other members of the Church at Jerusalem preached a different gospel than the gospel Paul preached, why did Paul partner with Barnabas, who was from the Church in Jerusalem, and known as an apostle?

I am well aware of the psychological truth that if you repeat something often enough, and with emphasis, you can persuade someone, who upon reflection would reject your proposal. Will not post the studies done that show that to be a fact, they are lengthy.

I much prefer to formulate my beliefs on the Word of God; portions of which, such as put forth in the Paul and Barnabas post, refute your doctrinal stand.

 

[eph3Nine]

You did not answer my question! If Peter and the other members of the Church at Jerusalem preached a different gospel than the gospel Paul preached, why did Paul partner with Barnabas, who was from the Church in Jerusalem, and known as an apostle?

I am well aware of the psychological truth that if you repeat something often enough, and with emphasis, you can persuade someone, who upon reflection would reject your proposal. Will not post the studies done that show that to be a fact, they are lengthy.

I much prefer to formulate my beliefs on the Word of God; portions of which, such as put forth in the Paul and Barnabas post, refute your doctrinal stand.

Im not addressing your question due to the fact that it is irrelevant. It is what I call a "rabbit trail"...one that leads NOWHERE. I am not required to answer your questions ON DEMAND. You can refute til the cows come home. Im not interested in debate, but in showing myself approved unto God , a workman that needeth NOT to be ashamed...rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

You have an axe to grind. You are using Barbabas to grind it. I simply have no interest.

Have a great day.

 

[WAB]

Im not addressing your question due to the fact that it is irrelevant. It is what I call a "rabbit trail"...one that leads NOWHERE. I am not required to answer your questions ON DEMAND. You can refute til the cows come home. Im not interested in debate, but in showing myself approved unto God , a workman that needeth NOT to be ashamed...rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

You have an axe to grind. You are using Barbabas to grind it. I simply have no interest.

Have a great day.

One can only declare the question as to which church Barnabas was a member of as irrelevant if you don't have a legitimate answer to said question.

Again, you use ad-hominem language to denigrate anyone who does not agree with your position. Where did I "DEMAND" an answer from you?

Your accusation that I "have an axe to grind" is not too far off base. When one wants to, or needs to, grind an axe, one uses a grinder to get the desired results.

The result I really desire is to see believers delivered from the false belief that Peter and the other believers in Jerusalem were not genuine Christians. To adhere to such a belief makes folks think that a large portion of the New Testament is not addressed to Christians/true believers, and deprives them not only of blessing, but of vital instructions that God has given for the edification of the Church. Serious stuff.

The question re Barnabas is the grinder that you refuse to acknowledge as being legitimate, because it actually/factually shows the non-biblical stance you adhere to.

Your parting shot of "Have a great day." might be termed as hypocritical?

 

[eph3Nine]

Yada yada yada

 

[WAB]

Yada yada yada

Which equates to "Bump" when you want to bring one of your posts to the fore.

 

[eph3Nine]

What ARE the three churches mentioned in scripture?What IS the Church? Does it always refer to the Body of Christ?

The church is always the congregation of the saints of God in any particular age. In the Bible the church is never a building. The congregation, that is the saints, can meet in a house, a garage, an office building, or a backyard and the group will still be God’s church. It is always a group of believers or saints.

Throughout history, the people and purpose of the church changes as God progressively revealed his plans and purposes. Here are some examples of churches the Bible describes:

The Church in the wilderness
For example, the Bible says that Moses was in the ‘church in the wilderness’ (Acts 7:38). Yet, back in the wilderness, Jesus had not yet died on the cross, nor had he instituted any new covenant, nor had He revealed the revelation of the mystery to Paul!

Moses was part of the group of God’s ‘chosen people’, the nation Israel, which was brought out of Egypt as God’s firstborn (Deut 7:6, Exodus 4:22, Exodus 19:4). This congregation of saints operated mostly out of the Old Mosaic Covenant, and was preoccupied with following God’s law to inherit the covenant blessings.

The Church in the Temple
Under the New Testament, there were devout and faithful Jewish believers that preached the gospel of the kingdom and that Jesus was the Son of God. These members of God’s church were not under God’s Old Covenant, but where subject to God’s New Covenant.

They were participants in the pouring out of God’s Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and were supernaturally able to obey the law of God as it was written in their hearts. Led by Peter, this congregation of saints was preparing to go into the kingdom. As such the Bible says that,

“And all that believed were together, and had all things common; [45] And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. [46] They, CONTINUING DAILY WITH ONE ACCORD IN THE TEMPLE, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, [47] Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. “ – Acts 2:44-47

The Church, the Body of Christ
For us in this dispensation, when we trust in the gospel and are saved, we are placed into the body of Christ, which is the church (1 Cor 12:13, Col 1:24).

“Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.” – 1 Cor 12:27

Within this congregation of saints, Jesus Christ is the head and we are subject to him (Eph 5:23-32). We, who are saved, are each members of the congregation of the saints, the church, the Body of Christ.

You are the church
Members of the church, the Body of Christ, have a special standing distinct from the other churches. We do not go to a temple to worship God because we are the temple. Paul says,

“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?” – 1 Cor 3:16

Paul exhorts the Ephesian elders to ‘feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood” (Acts 20:28).

The Bible says, that he purchased YOU with a price, and that YOU are the temple of the Holy Ghost (1 Cor 6:19.20). Therefore, the church of God today is found in YOU! Wherever you are, the church is. That is why we are to glorify God in our body because God dwells in us, and so within us there is a ‘church service’ happening 24 hours a day! (Col 1:25, 1 Cor 3:16, eph 3:17)

Church Groups
Now there are many members of the Body of Christ, the church today. So when many members of the church get together, that assembly or congregation of saints is also called a church.

When a group of saints gets together to praise God, study His word, and to build each other up, the Bible calls them a church. For example, Paul writes to the ‘church at Ephesus’, and the ‘church of Galatia’, and the ‘church at Corinth’.

However, each one of us becomes part of the church as we are placed into the Body of Christ.

 

[WAB]

What ARE the three churches mentioned in scripture?What IS the Church? Does it always refer to the Body of Christ?

The church is always the congregation of the saints of God in any particular age. In the Bible the church is never a building. The congregation, that is the saints, can meet in a house, a garage, an office building, or a backyard and the group will still be God’s church. It is always a group of believers or saints.

Throughout history, the people and purpose of the church changes as God progressively revealed his plans and purposes. Here are some examples of churches the Bible describes:

The Church in the wilderness
For example, the Bible says that Moses was in the ‘church in the wilderness’ (Acts 7:38). Yet, back in the wilderness, Jesus had not yet died on the cross, nor had he instituted any new covenant, nor had He revealed the revelation of the mystery to Paul!

Moses was part of the group of God’s ‘chosen people’, the nation Israel, which was brought out of Egypt as God’s firstborn (Deut 7:6, Exodus 4:22, Exodus 19:4). This congregation of saints operated mostly out of the Old Mosaic Covenant, and was preoccupied with following God’s law to inherit the covenant blessings.

The Church in the Temple
Under the New Testament, there were devout and faithful Jewish believers that preached the gospel of the kingdom and that Jesus was the Son of God. These members of God’s church were not under God’s Old Covenant, but where subject to God’s New Covenant.

They were participants in the pouring out of God’s Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and were supernaturally able to obey the law of God as it was written in their hearts. Led by Peter, this congregation of saints was preparing to go into the kingdom. As such the Bible says that,

“And all that believed were together, and had all things common; [45] And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. [46] They, CONTINUING DAILY WITH ONE ACCORD IN THE TEMPLE, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, [47] Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. “ – Acts 2:44-47

The Church, the Body of Christ
For us in this dispensation, when we trust in the gospel and are saved, we are placed into the body of Christ, which is the church (1 Cor 12:13, Col 1:24).

“Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.” – 1 Cor 12:27

Within this congregation of saints, Jesus Christ is the head and we are subject to him (Eph 5:23-32). We, who are saved, are each members of the congregation of the saints, the church, the Body of Christ.

You are the church
Members of the church, the Body of Christ, have a special standing distinct from the other churches. We do not go to a temple to worship God because we are the temple. Paul says,

“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?” – 1 Cor 3:16

Paul exhorts the Ephesian elders to ‘feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood” (Acts 20:28).

The Bible says, that he purchased YOU with a price, and that YOU are the temple of the Holy Ghost (1 Cor 6:19.20). Therefore, the church of God today is found in YOU! Wherever you are, the church is. That is why we are to glorify God in our body because God dwells in us, and so within us there is a ‘church service’ happening 24 hours a day! (Col 1:25, 1 Cor 3:16, eph 3:17)

Church Groups
Now there are many members of the Body of Christ, the church today. So when many members of the church get together, that assembly or congregation of saints is also called a church.

When a group of saints gets together to praise God, study His word, and to build each other up, the Bible calls them a church. For example, Paul writes to the ‘church at Ephesus’, and the ‘church of Galatia’, and the ‘church at Corinth’.

However, each one of us becomes part of the church as we are placed into the Body of Christ.

Well, well... for once I can agree with quite a bit of what you post, with the exception that excluding Peter from the Body-of-Christ/Church is absolutely anti-Biblical.

That may be due to the KJVO take, and the use of Middle English. To clarify Acts 2:47, and the use of the word "should" in the KJV, which some think is referring to something that is to happen in the future, here is that verse from the ESV... "praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved."

Wuest has..."And the Lord kept on adding to them daily those who were being saved."

Young's Literal phrases it... "...and the Lord was adding those being saved every day to the assembly."

I certainly don't know everything by a long shot. But one thing is very clear... salvation is salvation!

 

[eph3Nine]

When we dont acknowledge what church WE are a part of today, we miss the point. WE are not part of the Church in the Wilderness , or the Church at Jerusalem, but of a NEW group of called out ones. A NEW CREATION...separate and distinct from the churches mentioned before.

 

[TheScottsMen]

1 Peter 3:15 - But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Should we, the Body of Christ, do anything less?

 

[TheScottsMen]

You did not answer my question! If Peter and the other members of the Church at Jerusalem preached a different gospel than the gospel Paul preached, why did Paul partner with Barnabas, who was from the Church in Jerusalem, and known as an apostle?

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Who is to say that Barnabas did not come under the same message as Paul? Paul originally went with Barnabas up to the Jerusalem to be accepted by the leaders that were there (the apostles didn't know what to make of Paul before this, who is to say that Paul just wasn't a plot to kill more Christians?).

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Acts 9:27 - But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.

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It is also likely that Paul and Barnabas new each other as Barnabas was from Cyprus (Acts 4:36).​

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We can be assured though by their first missionary journey, they were in agreement in their message and else where.
(Acts 13:46;Acts 15:1; Gal 2:1; Gal 2:9; )

As Mid-Acts Dispensationalist believe that Paul's message and commission was different than that of the twelve Apostle, we must conclude that if Barnabas was in agreement with Paul, he was preaching the same message as Paul; thus, different than that of the twelve
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[WAB]

Who is to say that Barnabas did not come under the same message as Paul? Paul originally went with Barnabas up to the Jerusalem to be accepted by the leaders that were there (the apostles didn't know what to make of Paul before this, who is to say that Paul just wasn't a plot to kill more Christians?).[/LEFT]

Acts 9:27 - But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.​

It is also likely that Paul and Barnabas new each other as Barnabas was from Cyprus (Acts 4:36).​

We can be assured though by their first missionary journey, they were in agreement in their message and else where.
(Acts 13:46;Acts 15:1; Gal 2:1; Gal 2:9; )​

As Mid-Acts Dispensationalist believe that Paul's message and commission was different than that of the twelve Apostle, we must conclude that if Barnabas was in agreement with Paul, he was preaching the same message as Paul; thus, different than that of the twelve​

Have a hunch that you did not mean what this sounds like... but am not sure. Barnabas certainly was in agreement with the gospel Paul preached. As a matter of fact, they both preached the same gospel. This has been shown elsewhere.

If the gospel that both Paul and Barnabas preached was identical, and if it was different than the gospel that "the twelve" preached, how come neither Paul nor Barnabas ever pointed this out?

 

[TheScottsMen]

.
If the gospel that both Paul and Barnabas preached was identical, and if it was different than the gospel that "the twelve" preached, how come neither Paul nor Barnabas ever pointed this out?

It was at the Jerusalem council in Acts 15.

Gal. 2:2 - And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

Jesus during his heavenly ministry raised up the Apostle Paul to be the Apostle to the Gentiles, and we are to follow Paul as he follows Christ; that is, not during Jesus' earthly ministry, but his heavenly.

Rom. 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

I Cor. 11:1 - Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ.

I Cor. 4:16 - Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

Paul's foundation is layed on the heavenly ministry of Jesus Chirst as Paul never knew Jesus during his Earthly. This foundation that was given to Paul from the Risen Christ is our foundation.

1 Cor. 3:10 - According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Paul has our goodnews for today -- this goodnews has nothing about Israels restoration or their salvation from their enemies.

I Cor. 15:1 - Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
I Cor. 15.2 - By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

The gospel that Paul preached is the gospel that Barnabas preached; as I stated, this gospel does not have the restoration for Israel or their "salvation' from their enemies in mind

Lk 1:69 - And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; (What type of salvation?)
Lk 1:70 - As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
Lk 1:71 - That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

TSM

 

[WAB]

It was at the Jerusalem council in Acts 15.

Gal. 2:2 - And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

Jesus during his heavenly ministry raised up the Apostle Paul to be the Apostle to the Gentiles, and we are to follow Paul as he follows Christ; that is, not during Jesus' earthly ministry, but his heavenly.

Rom. 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

I Cor. 11:1 - Be ye followers of me, even as I also [am] of Christ.

I Cor. 4:16 - Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

Paul's foundation is layed on the heavenly ministry of Jesus Chirst as Paul never knew Jesus during his Earthly. This foundation that was given to Paul from the Risen Christ is our foundation.

1 Cor. 3:10 - According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Paul has our goodnews for today -- this goodnews has nothing about Israels restoration or their salvation from their enemies.

I Cor. 15:1 - Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
I Cor. 15.2 - By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

The gospel that Paul preached is the gospel that Barnabas preached; as I stated, this gospel does not have the restoration for Israel or their "salvation' from their enemies in mind

Lk 1:69 - And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; (What type of salvation?)
Lk 1:70 - As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
Lk 1:71 - That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

TSM

As posted elswhere, Paul spent a lot of time in Jewish synagogues preaching the true gospel. If Paul was an apostle only to the Gentiles, he wasted an awful lot of time sharing that gospel with his ethnic kin. Worse than that, he would have been deliberately disobedient to the Lord if such were the case.

Also, it can be shown that Peter (in his epistles) was writing/speaking to both Jews and Gentiles. Have posted re that elsewhere, so will not take the space to repeat it here.

You are right that the gospel that both Paul and Barnabas preached did not address Israel's restoration as a nation. Rather they both preached individual salvation for Jew or Gentile. However, Paul does address that subject in Romans chap.11.

 

[TheScottsMen]

As posted elswhere, Paul spent a lot of time in Jewish synagogues preaching the true gospel. If Paul was an apostle only to the Gentiles, he wasted an awful lot of time sharing that gospel with his ethnic kin.

Though Paul's office was that of the Apostle to the Gentiles, this does not mean that he was forbidden to preach to his kinsmen. During this time of transition, it was Paul's custom to first preach in the synagogue to his kinsmen, then to the Gentiles. I find nothing wrong here though? Paul clearly says who his office was to, and we also know from scripture that he also preached to the Jews? Does the later cancel the first? Scripture doesn't seem to have a problem with, so, neither should we.​

Worse than that, he would have been deliberately disobedient to the Lord if such were the case.​

God never forbid Paul to preach to the Jews, though God had told him many times that they would not receive the message. Paul had a great love for his fellow country men and would have given his own life to see his country men receive the gospel he was preaching, but, none the less, he office was that to the Gentiles, and it took his imprisonment in Rome for him to say that he had now become a prisoner of Jesus Christ; notice, not for Jesus Christ, but Of Jesus Christ.

Eph 3:1 - For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
​

The question that is to be asked is, why was he a prisoner OF JESUS christ for GENTILES. I believe it to be undrstood because of Paul's office, and who his Apostleship was to, and that his love for his countrymen was drawing him away from that position.

But..I'm willing to agree to disagree.

Also, it can be shown that Peter (in his epistles) was writing/speaking to both Jews and Gentiles. Have posted re that elsewhere, so will not take the space to repeat it here.​

I would disagree..but that's alright as this is not the topic at hand.​

You are right that the gospel that both Paul and Barnabas preached did not address Israel's restoration as a nation. Rather they both preached individual salvation for Jew or Gentile. However, Paul does address that subject in Romans chap.11.​

We are in agreement! Lets build on it!​

 

[WAB]

Though Paul's office was that of the Apostle to the Gentiles, this does not mean that he was forbidden to preach to his kinsmen. During this time of transition, it was Paul's custom to first preach in the synagogue to his kinsmen, then to the Gentiles. I find nothing wrong here though? Paul clearly says who his office was to, and we also know from scripture that he also preached to the Jews? Does the later cancel the first? Scripture doesn't seem to have a problem with, so, neither should we.​

God never forbid Paul to preach to the Jews, though God had told him many times that they would not receive the message. Paul had a great love for his fellow country men and would have given his own life to see his country men receive the gospel he was preaching, but, none the less, he office was that to the Gentiles, and it took his imprisonment in Rome for him to say that he had now become a prisoner of Jesus Christ; notice, not for Jesus Christ, but Of Jesus Christ.​

Eph 3:1 - For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,​

The question that is to be asked is, why was he a prisoner OF JESUS christ for GENTILES. I believe it to be undrstood because of Paul's office, and who his Apostleship was to, and that his love for his countrymen was drawing him away from that position.

But..I'm willing to agree to disagree.

I would disagree..but that's alright as this is not the topic at hand.​

We are in agreement! Lets build on it!​

As you are no doubt aware, the word "edify" means "to build up, add to the structure". May the Lord enable us to build one another UP!

p.s. I happen to be of Scots/Polynesian heritage, and your title often attracts me to your posts. How's that for operating in the flesh?

 

[TheScottsMen]

As you are no doubt aware, the word "edify" means "to build up, add to the structure". May the Lord enable us to build one another UP!

Amen Brother!

p.s. I happen to be of Scots/Polynesian heritage, and your title often attracts me to your posts. How's that for operating in the flesh?

Haha I have Scot/German heritage myself.

 

[WAB]

Amen Brother!


Haha I have Scot/German heritage myself.

No doubt that is what enables you to keep banging your head against the wall!

In Him who is coming... I hope SOON!!

 

[TheScottsMen]

No doubt that is what enables you to keep banging your head against the wall!

In Him who is coming... I hope SOON!!

hahaha..maybe so