Which Catholic Doctrine do you have the biggest issue with?

  • The Eucharist

    Votes: 2 2.9%
  • The Papacy

    Votes: 16 23.5%
  • The Priesthood

    Votes: 3 4.4%
  • Sacred Tradition

    Votes: 2 2.9%
  • The Veneration of Mary and the Saint

    Votes: 17 25.0%
  • The Four Marian Dogmas

    Votes: 3 4.4%
  • The Rejection of Sola Scriptura

    Votes: 14 20.6%
  • The Rejection of Sola Fide

    Votes: 8 11.8%
  • Purgatory

    Votes: 3 4.4%
  • The Seven Sacraments

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    68
  • Poll closed .
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Ancient of Days

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That's a petty and insincere statement. It's shameful. We are all Christians, and certain incorrect doctrines notwithstanding, we all share the foundational doctrines.

Wrong.



21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
 
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jamesbond007

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I didn't know that there were so many differences, so I voted for the papacy. However, I changed it to sola scriptura after finding out it was the Protestant rallying cry. The papacy is large and in charge of Catholicism and has influence with other churches, so that would be next. Practices such as praying to the saints and kneeling before relics could mislead one away from Christ Jesus. After that would be Mary as co-mediator and co-redeemer. It could also lead one away from Jesus. Catholicism adds too much to sola scriptura, so Jesus and the Bible seem to get lost in the shuffle. I don't know if that's true, but an impression.

My experience with Catholicism was being made to feel too guilty as a child. I rebelled at thirteen. Aren't catholic kids pretty bad at middle school or high school? Sure, sure it's a stereotype. Maybe that's why my parents took me out. At the same time, I felt privileged. The guilt part were bad feelings, but the second made me think I was better than others. It sounds contradictory. Eventually, I learned from others to get over the guilt feelings and feelings of being superior while in middle school. To be fair, the actual practices did not feel out of place and were uplifting. I didn't think praying to Mary or the saints was wrong at the time. I've been to many Catholic services and think the ceremonies and cathedrals are beautiful. If one understands Jesus is Lord and the scripture is God's word, then I don't have any complaints nor criticisms.
 
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Philip_B

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1 John 4:7-12
Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love. God’s love was revealed among us in this way: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins. Beloved, since God loved us so much, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God lives in us, and his love is perfected in us.​
 
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AFrazier

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Wrong.



21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
You'll have to be more specific than "wrong." No idea what you are referring to.
 
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Vicomte13

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Confirmation is the second sacrament. Communion the third. In theory, you are confirmed before partaking of the body and blood of Christ.

The general order is Baptism as an infant. First Confession and First Communion as a child around second or third grade. Confirmation is usually at age 13 or 14, about the same time as the Jewish Bar/Bas Mitzvah, and serving the same effective function: at Confirmation, a person actively takes responsibility for and asserts his/her own belief in what s/he has been, up to that point, given under the involuntary tutelage of infancy and childhood.

By the time of Confirmation, most Catholic children have been taking Communion for about 7 years.
 
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AFrazier

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The general order is Baptism as an infant. First Confession and First Communion as a child around second or third grade. Confirmation is usually at age 13 or 14, about the same time as the Jewish Bar/Bas Mitzvah, and serving the same effective function: at Confirmation, a person actively takes responsibility for and asserts his/her own belief in what s/he has been, up to that point, given under the involuntary tutelage of infancy and childhood.

By the time of Confirmation, most Catholic children have been taking Communion for about 7 years.
Okay. I'm no expert. I was misinformed. Thanks for the clarification.
 
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Vicomte13

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Anyways, I say this not to debate with you. But I am merely trying to understand why you don't find these things I mentioned disturbing to your soul.

I will answer you: the fact that they appear, or do not appear, in the Bible is of zero concern. The Bible is neither the Constitution nor the lawbook nor the final revelation of anything, for Catholics. The Bible is a book, produced by Catholic authors. It contains SOME, by no means all, of the history. It is not a law book. It is not a rule book. It is not a higher authority. The authority is God, He expresses it through the Church, the Bible is a written historical artifact of the Church, from a certain time and place and set of people. It contains the words of Jesus, and that's important. But the seated Pope and Bishops have the authority of God in THIS time and place. Paul had it in his, but he does not have any binding authority at all in the world today, or after he died. The Bishops that succeeded him have the authority.

The Bible is not the center of Catholic religion, at all, so the fact that Catholics do something that is in the Bible, or don't do it, is not relevant to Catholics. To Protestants, of course, the Bible IS the lawbook, the rulebook, the Constitution, and Paul is not merely a long-dead bishop with ideas for his flock then, but a very fount of the living God.

Catholics' view of Mary, for instance, is informed by the fact that the God sent Mary as his emissary time and time again: at Guadelupe, at Lourdes, at Fatima and elsewhere. Mary has revealed additional things from God that were not revealed in the time of Christ and that are not in the Bible. And she revealed these things accompanied by miracles, notably the healing miracles at Lourdes that still go on to this day. Healing miracles cannot come from the Devil, so the fact of the open miracles accompanying the messages from God through the Mother of God is God vouching for the truth of what she has said, just as God gave Jesus the power to perform miracles as signs to those who heard him that he was the real deal.

Of course none of these Marian missions are in the Bible - they happened afterwards - but that is WHY Catholics are so devoted to Mary in particular: God has sent HER, specifically, from Heaven to be his diplomat on several occasions.

Now, because this is not in the Bible - for the obvious reason that the last parts of the Bible were written in the First Century but God sent Mary in later centuries - the Protestants cannot look at it, cannot hear it, cannot see it, and cannot accept it.

Catholics know that Transubstantiation is true because God demonstrated it to be so through eucharistic miracles over the ages. Those miracles are not in the Bible, so Protestants are left arguing about a few words and can't look at the positive physical proof that God provided.

Likewise the communion of saints. A few hundred saints died and didn't rot: strong proof of God's grace. Not in the Bible, of course, because all of this came AFTER the Bible. It's proof of the uniqueness of saints, and therefore Catholics revere the saints. But this wasn't happening YET at the time of the Bible, so Protestants have to wall their minds off against all of it (just as the Jews walled their minds off against Jesus in his day, because he is not EXPLICITLY and CLEARLY written out in their Scriptures. Sure, looking backwards with the knowledge that he's the real deal, supplied by his miracles and his greatest miracle: the Resurrection, WE can tease oblique and indirect references to Jesus from the Old Testament, but it's all indirect, and it can only be seen for sure looking backward through the lens of the miracles that Jesus did, including his resurrection. Take the miracles out, and he was just a rabbi who was executed for blasphemy and the Jews were right - within their belief system.

This is why Catholics and Protestants cannot talk to each other and understand each other.
The issue between Catholics and Orthodox is related, but different, and not at issue here, so I won't elaborate.

Now, truth is, most Catholics do not have the full story of the faith down. Catholics who are interested can mine the history and find out WHY we do this or that, but few do. Most just accept what they are taught. When a Catholic converts, it is generally a Catholic at the fringe of Catholicism, who doesn't know the historical roots of the beliefs that differ with the Protestants, who does not account for the way that Divine Intervention SINCE the Bible has changed the direction of the Church.

All of those things on the quiz list ARE very clear differences between Catholicism and Protestantism, and there are reasons the Catholics believes all of them. Catholics who don't know the history and haven't looked at the miracles do wander away. Catholics who have looked at the miracles directly realize WHY we do the things we do: they are based on Divine Revelation that has come AFTER the First Century.

This divide in theological belief is not really bridgeable.

But goodwill and patience between Catholics and Protestants IS possible, just as it is possible between Christians and non-Christians. Human beings can still interact peaceably, but to do so that usually means not going down the road of "You are wrong because you don't believe what I believe."

People believe what they believe because they were taught it as children. That's fine. Leave them be.
If we want to talk comparative religion, it's important that we understand WHY the other believes as he believes.

Mostly, proselytizing types don't care why. They're certain they are right and on a mission from God to do thus and so. Generally speaking, they look to me to be on a mission from their own ego, or from other powers, because I am just as certain my religion is right as they are of theirs.

The nature of chat sites is that people argue and fight, because they like that.
I'd prefer that we came to understand each other better.

Part of that understanding, between Catholics and Protestants, is to know WHY the other believes as he believes. To convey just that without insult is hard. Few put in the effort.
 
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Vicomte13

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Okay. I'm no expert. I was misinformed. Thanks for the clarification.

It works, too, within the sacramental system, because the Eucharist wipes away venial sins, and pre-pubescent children generally have those. With adolescence comes sexual maturity, and the deepening of life experience includes the interest in, and ability to commit, mortal sins. And it's right at the onset of that age - marrying age in the Middle Ages - that Confirmation generally happens in the normal course. The individual stands up and takes the religion of his parents and infancy as his own, as an "adult".

So the eucharist cleanses away the venial sins of kids, and the learning required to become Confirmed educates the young man or woman in the responsibilities to God regarding the sins that come into play with maturity.

Essentially, Confirmation serves the purpose that baptism does for those Protestants who deny infant baptism. You step up to God yourself and commit to being his follower.
 
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JesusLovesOurLady

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Well I guess that went out the door in a hurry. ^_^
No it started off OK. I do commend those who didn't debate on this thread, I do appreciate their conduct.
 
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Strong in Him

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No it started off OK. I do commend those who didn't debate on this thread, I do appreciate their conduct.

I apologise for starting to debate when you asked us not to.
But you, yourself, made inflammatory statements like;

But of course, I need to show people here that the Catholic Church is the One True Church established by Jesus Christ, and so I'm taking this poll to see what I where to best put my efforts in order to show that this is the case.

Which means you have an agenda in starting the poll - to prove us all wrong.
You also said;

However, I also have huge issues with their rejection (major understatement here, because I'm trying to be polite) of devotion to Mary, although as you pointed out, there are some Catholics who don't know, or even simply don't like the fact that devotion to Mary is essential for Salvation.

You can't expect to say that "devotion to Mary is essential for salvation" and not get some response.
And then there was;
I'll just take the statistics, Satan can have the blasphemous attacks in the One True Church, they are his works after all.

Blasphemy is against God alone.
You may think think that we are slandering the Catholic church, but the CC is not God, therefore it can't be blasphemed.

You say you didn't want a debate, but it's unfair to make statements like that, and when people reply saying that such and such is unscriptural, untrue or whatever - suddenly cry "NO debate allowed."

Am now unsubscribing so I don't get tempted, or drawn into, debate.
Funnily enough, I WOULD be interested in debating this properly - except that I suspect it would become either a slanging match, or an anti catholic thread.
 
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Philip_B

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Actually, technically, blasphemy just means "speaking ill of." You can blaspheme anything you can speak ill of. Although usually now it tends to only be used in religious terms.
Blasphemy - Wikipedia

The etymology of the word goes back, however it's use in English since the conquest at least seems confined to the divine.
 
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JesusLovesOurLady

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Neither can Mary for that matter.
Yes. She. Can! And blasphemy against Mary is Satanic.

I've got what I needed from this thread so I'm closing this thread, no point in allowing more evil to be committed on here.
 
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redleghunter

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Where in the New Testament does it say we can pray to dead people?
It doesn't. However, if you read a few posts here you might have come across the Roman Catholic theme that tradition and theology develops over time. Cardinal Newman opined on this and called it doctrinal development theology:

We are told in various ways by Eusebius [Note 16], that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us.

The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison [Note 17], are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church. {374}

The introduction of Images was still later, and met with more opposition in the West than in the East. John Henry Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, Chapter 8. Application of the Third Note of a True Development—Assimilative Power;
Newman Reader - Development of Christian Doctrine - Chapter 8

Therefore, it should be no surprise some Roman Catholic posters have no issue with doctrines developing over time or "remembering" centuries later what was apostolic.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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It doesn't. However, if you read a few posts here you might have come across the Roman Catholic theme that tradition and theology develops over time. Cardinal Newman opined on this and called it doctrinal development theology:

We are told in various ways by Eusebius [Note 16], that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us.

The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison [Note 17], are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church. {374}

The introduction of Images was still later, and met with more opposition in the West than in the East. John Henry Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, Chapter 8. Application of the Third Note of a True Development—Assimilative Power;
Newman Reader - Development of Christian Doctrine - Chapter 8

Therefore, it should be no surprise some Roman Catholic posters have no issue with doctrines developing over time or "remembering" centuries later what was apostolic.

Rome adopted the gods of Greece. They worshiped many gods during the time of Jesus. Has things really changed? There is a patron saint for different things that you desire.

List of patron saints by occupation and activity - Wikipedia

Just as I am sure there were different gods you can pray to for different things back in the times of Jesus. But we both know that only Jesus is the only mediator between God the Father and man.
 
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