Which bible?

[workmx]

I am not a licensed lawyer nor a pastor so don't take my advice as granted. But I believe what I said is not too far from the correct answer

But still an interpretation, right?

Why does god not just clarify these things?

Does not seem very god-like to let us fumble about and try to interpret parables and intesting stories.

 

[dcalling]

But still an interpretation, right?

Why does god not just clarify these things?

Does not seem very god-like to let us fumble about and try to interpret parables and intesting stories.

God has made it clear, the biggest law is to love your neighbor as yourself. There are people who love to get in the law and making derivatives, to the extend that you can't eat cheese and meat in the same plate, while all you need to do is to love God and love your neighbor.

 

[Angelquill]

I wouldn't call it a story...more of a narrative.
We can follow God's plan for bringing us into fellowship with Him as we read the story of creation, how God decided to wipe the slate and start over, how He called Abraham and how the nation of Israel came to be.
From there, things get exciting. We can read about how God dealt with His people in those long gone days...what He expected of them, and what they could expect from Him, and how the government evolved. We get occasional peeks at God's plan for the future. We get some insights on what He expects from His people today.
Moving on, we come to the long-awaited fulfillment of a Promise made long ago...the coming of our Immanuel, or God-With-Us...

 

[workmx]

God has made it clear, the biggest law is to love your neighbor as yourself. There are people who love to get in the law and making derivatives, to the extend that you can't eat cheese and meat in the same plate, while all you need to do is to love God and love your neighbor.

I am not sure that it is clear.

Why are there some many christian denominations?

If it is clear, shoulddn't there be only one christain church.

And shouldn't everyone be a christian?

 

[workmx]

I wouldn't call it a story...more of a narrative.

What is the difference?

We can follow God's plan for bringing us into fellowship with Him as we read the story of creation, how God decided to wipe the slate and start over, how He called Abraham and how the nation of Israel came to be.
From there, things get exciting. We can read about how God dealt with His people in those long gone days...what He expected of them, and what they could expect from Him, and how the government evolved. We get occasional peeks at God's plan for the future. We get some insights on what He expects from His people today.
Moving on, we come to the long-awaited fulfillment of a Promise made long ago...the coming of our Immanuel, or God-With-Us...

So, why has god failed me?

I have read the bible twice.

I have gone to church services for every domination in my town.

Still nothing.

I am finding it hard to have faith.


There are too many hurdles, I would need:

1. faith in the supernatural realm;
2. faith that beings exist in that realm;
3. faith that only one such being exists;
4. faith that this being can create things;
5. faith that this being is interested in creating things;
6. faith that this being created everything;
7. faith that this beings is interested in us;
8. faith that this being is good;
9. faith that this being is powerful; and
10. faith that this being is all knowing.

 

[faroukfarouk]

What about your sins? You need the Savior.

 

[workmx]

What about your sins? You need the Savior.

I don't really believe that sin exists.

Depending on which one we are talking about, I may agree that there are some things we should not do.

But I would hestiate to call anything a sin.

So, could you be more specific?

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Thanks. Reading the bible changed my life too.

It is the reason that I began to doubt that god exists.

Now I have read it a second time, I am less convinced.

Still you may convince me.

Im not here to convince you. I can only lead a Donkey to the water which he needs but if the Donkey wont drink from the stream then I leave him to himself to ponder what the deal is. Pride, arrogance, and rebellion isn't something I can change in a person ; but I recognize it when it comes along.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I don't really believe that sin exists.

Depending on which one we are talking about, I may agree that there are some things we should not do.

But I would hestiate to call anything a sin.

So, could you be more specific?

Does the Bible indicate that God is holy? (Yes.)

So how can we stand in His presence unless our sins are covered by the blood of Christ?

 

[dcalling]

I am not sure that it is clear.

Why are there some many christian denominations?

If it is clear, shoulddn't there be only one christain church.

And shouldn't everyone be a christian?

People all have different understandings, those are people, not computers. If you see some of the rulings on DMCA, you will see different judges has different interpretation on the law, rather interesting.

Why should everyone be a christian? God said the way to heaven is narrow.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Originally Posted by workmx

'I don't really believe that sin exists.'

RESPONSE : Sin is actually an archery term that means 'missing the mark' . The mark happens to be Gods Moral Law that is inscribed on all of our beings . If you don't believe in sin, please tell me your reaction the next time someone cheats you / lies about you / vandalizes your car / call your Mom a very bad name / tries to get 'somewhere' with your younger sister / or robs you at gunpoint .
​

 

[workmx]

Originally Posted by workmx

'I don't really believe that sin exists.'

RESPONSE : Sin is actually an archery term that means 'missing the mark' . The mark happens to be Gods Moral Law that is inscribed on all of our beings . If you don't believe in sin, please tell me your reaction the next time someone cheats you / lies about you / vandalizes your car / call your Mom a very bad name / tries to get 'somewhere' with your younger sister / or robs you at gunpoint .
​

Okay. How do we test this idea that law can be inserted into a human?

If all humans have law inserted into them, which god did it?

How much does this law weigh?

Therefore, do people who not belive in that god (who did the inserting) weigh less?

Nothing, to me, makes less sense than the idea of sin.

Unless you can explain it.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Okay. How do we test this idea that law can be inserted into a human?

If all humans hav law inserted into them, which god did it?

How much does this law weigh?

Therefore, do people who not belive in that god (who did the inserting) weigh less?

Nothing, to me, makes less sense than the idea of sin.

Unless you can explain it.

In Order---

a. We know that the Moral Law is inserted in all of us so we know what is truly objectively right from wrong by HOW we respond when we are morally violated. We are always taken aback after we are violated and there would be no reason to feel that way if we didn't know , absolutely, that a Moral infraction was commited upon us. We know the MOral Law exists when we ourselves commit a violation and we try to HIDE it. We know it exists because without it there would be no objective way to determine the difference between the acts of Mother Theresa and a Hitler.

b. Because the real one true Creator who is theistic by nature , can be proven to exist just by using modern scientific evidences, and since this Creator precisely lines up with the Creator in the Bible....we can know that The Christian Creator is the correct one and all other ideas about God are false.

c. Moral Laws aren't comprised of mass, so none of them weigh any amount of lbs. Just like the 8 established Laws of Physics don't have mass to them, neither do the MOral Laws of God have any weight to them.

d. Sin should make simple sense to every person on earth who is willing to look at themselves and see the darker side to their personality. The side that is self centered and willing to do most anything to get what One wants / the propensity to suppress morality when it suits us / our thoughts or language concerning putting down a minority or majority people Group / cheating / lying / hiding things we know weve done wrong instead of admitting it / using the very Creators name in vain / and many many other examples. Every Human Being is a Sinner even notable Folks like Mother Theresa and Billy Graham and your Mother whether in thought, word, or deed. Its the condition of human depravity and its this that Jesus who was the only sinless Person came to earth and died for so we could be brought back in right relationship to a very very holy and infinite moral Creator...so holy that he cant look favorably on any sin at all.

I hope you will take your sin nature quite seriously because there are enormous ramifications at hand for you , me, and everyone else.

 

[dcalling]

Okay. How do we test this idea that law can be inserted into a human?

If all humans hav law inserted into them, which god did it?

How much does this law weigh?

Therefore, do people who not belive in that god (who did the inserting) weigh less?

Nothing, to me, makes less sense than the idea of sin.

Unless you can explain it.

You are so rigid in your thinking . So if I want a factory to produce certain of products that has certain size, I can specify that if the size various by x%, it is a defective product. That is similar to the law, which has no weight on the actual product.

 

[workmx]

In Order---

a. We know that the Moral Law is inserted in all of us so we know what is truly objectively right from wrong by HOW we respond when we are morally violated. We are always taken aback after we are violated and there would be no reason to feel that way if we didn't know , absolutely, that a Moral infraction was commited upon us. We know the Moral Law exists when we ourselves commit a violation and we try to HIDE it. We know it exists because without it there would be no objective way to determine the difference between the acts of Mother Theresa and a Hitler.

Okay - can you prove that objective morality exists?

You are aware of the Franz De Waal, right?

He has found evidence that other mammals also possess the pillars of morality (empathy, cooperation, distributive justice, et al).

My guess is that the pillars of morality evolved in mammals.

Now what we do with those pillars is another thing.

I am a fan of situational ethics, I doubt that "objective morality" exists.

For if it does, you haev to deal with the Euthyphro dilemma (but we have wasted time on trying to get people here to address that before).

b. Because the real one true Creator who is theistic by nature , can be proven to exist just by using modern scientific evidences, and since this Creator precisely lines up with the Creator in the Bible....we can know that The Christian Creator is the correct one and all other ideas about God are false.

How do you do that now?

Sorry, but that did not make a bit of sense to me.

c. Moral Laws aren't comprised of mass, so none of them weigh any amount of lbs. Just like the 8 established Laws of Physics don't have mass to them, neither do the MOral Laws of God have any weight to them.

No, be precise:

What is the weight of the moral law that is "written in the hearts" of humans?

Even ink has weight.

So how many grams does it weigh?

d. Sin should make simple sense to every person on earth who is willing to look at themselves and see the darker side to their personality. The side that is self centered and willing to do most anything to get what One wants / the propensity to suppress morality when it suits us / our thoughts or language concerning putting down a minority or majority people Group / cheating / lying / hiding things we know weve done wrong instead of admitting it / using the very Creators name in vain / and many many other examples. Every Human Being is a Sinner even notable Folks like Mother Theresa and Billy Graham and your Mother whether in thought, word, or deed. Its the condition of human depravity and its this that Jesus who was the only sinless Person came to earth and died for so we could be brought back in right relationship to a very very holy and infinite moral Creator...so holy that he cant look favorably on any sin at all.

I doubt that jesus was without sin: what about the whole cursing a fig tree?

And what about how he endorses murder, rape, genocide and slavery.

To me, he sounds all too bronze age human: sexist, racist and bigoted.

I hope you will take your sin nature quite seriously because there are enormous ramifications at hand for you , me, and everyone else.

If god made me with a big brain, logic and reason, then it would be a sin if I didn't use them.

Or else why did god give them to us? To have us not use them? What is the point of that?

My Pascal's wager is that god only admits rational thinkers into heaven. I don't think god is a fan non-critical thinkers.

So, I will give the whole original sin thing a miss.

Mind you, if I did believe in sin: I would sin often and strongly, as Luther recommended.

Unfortunately for Luther, for the reasons set out above: I doubt faith is a good idea (and I suspect god agrees with me).

 

[workmx]

You are so rigid in your thinking . So if I want a factory to produce certain of products that has certain size, I can specify that if the size various by x%, it is a defective product. That is similar to the law, which has no weight on the actual product.

No the assertion is always that the law is written or inserted in human hearts.

That is a physical phenomnon that can be measured.

Why do you rigidly oppose it being measured?

Surely that is the best evidence for you claims, right?

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Okay - can you prove that objective morality exists?

You are aware of the Franz De Waal, right?

He has found evidence that other mammals also possess the pillars of morality (empathy, cooperation, distributive justice, et al).

My guess is that the pillars of morality evolved in mammals.

Now what we do with those pillars is another thing.

I am a fan of situational ethics, I doubt that "objective morality" exists.

For if it does, you haev to deal with the Euthyphro dilemma (but we have wasted time on trying to get people here to address that before).



How do you do that now?

Sorry, but that did not make a bit of sense to me.



No, be precise:

What is the weight of the moral law that is "written in the hearts" of humans?

Even ink has weight.

So how many grams does it weigh?



I doubt that jesus was without sin: what about the whole cursing a fig tree?

And what about how he endorses murder, rape, genocide and slavery.

To me, he sounds all too bronze age human: sexist, racist and bigoted.



If god made me with a big brain, logic and reason, then it would be a sin if I didn't use them.

Or else why did god give them to us? To have us not use them? What is the point of that?

My Pascal's wager is that god only admits rational thinkers into heaven. I don't think god is a fan non-critical thinkers.

So, I will give the whole original sin thing a miss.

Mind you, if I did believe in sin: I would sin often and strongly, as Luther recommended.

Unfortunately for Luther, for the reasons set out above: I doubt faith is a good idea (and I suspect god agrees with me).

Objective moral laws exist because of the reasons I already listed. You know that something is ABSOLUTELY IMMORAL or UNETHICAL when you've been violated..otherwise you wouldn't be upset about it. Further, you hide whatever it is that you've done wrong so no one finds out and you wouldn't if it wasn't really wrong . We couldn't know the difference between evil and goodness without the Moral Law written on our Soul. Theres other reasons too.

Why are you continuing with this 'how much does a moral law weigh' ?! Its like asking : What is the mass of love, or, how much does an abstract thought weigh ,etc ? Moral Laws are intangible yet they are still very real . You cant measure non material entities using a weight scale and the fact that there are numerous non material entities such as morality, discernment, abstract thinking, reason, logic, etc...in every human being.... it nullifies an atheistic materialistic Universe. Theres much more than just materials that make us up and such non material things can only come from a like Mind to ours .

I hope you will give God a chance with your life one day.

 

[workmx]

Objective moral laws exist because of the reasons I already listed. You know that something is ABSOLUTELY IMMORAL or UNETHICAL when you've been violated..otherwise you wouldn't be upset about it. Further, you hide whatever it is that you've done wrong so no one finds out and you wouldn't if it wasn't really wrong .

No. Sorry that is not correct.

Morality is always cultural and situational.

I see no evidence for absolute morality.

Can you point me to peer-reviewed sociological / anthropological / psychological papers that prove it to be a thing?

The proof to the contrary is simple: if I find one example of somthing that is morally acceptable in one society, but not another, there can be be no abosulte morality.

So, here we go - I am asked: where is your teacher?

In a Western society I use my index finger to point to her.

That is morally acceptable and even commonplace.

If I did the same thing in Japan, I have just insulted my teacher.

And she is rightfully angered by what happened.

QED.

 

[workmx]

We couldn't know the difference between evil and goodness without the Moral Law written on our Soul. Theres other reasons too.

Why are you continuing with this 'how much does a moral law weigh' ?! Its like asking : What is the mass of love, or, how much does an abstract thought weigh ,etc ? Moral Laws are intangible yet they are still very real . You cant measure non material entities using a weight scale and the fact that there are numerous non material entities such as morality, discernment, abstract thinking, reason, logic, etc...in every human being.... it nullifies an atheistic materialistic Universe. Theres much more than just materials that make us up and such non material things can only come from a like Mind to ours .

I hope you will give God a chance with your life one day.

There you go again: "written on our soul".

As long as you keep making these assertions I will keep asking; how much does the ink weigh?

Why?

1. Because a physical phenomena can be measured and it's the best (and simplest) answer you can give. It is in your interest for the ink to have a weight.

2. Because to take the metaphysical approach is hard work.

Why?

Because as it stands I cannot grant your premises - they are numerous and all unproven:

1. Demonstrate that there is a soul.

2. Demonstrate that things can be writen on a soul.

3. Demonstrate that god exists (as it needs to do the writing).

4. Demonstrate that god is interested in writing things on souls.

5. Demonstrate that god can write a thing on a soul

(Note: this is not the same as 2, which is the general "things can be written" as differentiated from the specific "god can write things", which requires we demonstrate that god can write and has writing material available that can write on souls).

6. Demonstrate that absolute morality actually exists.

7. Demonstrate that god wrote absolute morality on all souls.

You have some work to do.

And I would like to see those workings.

 

[dcalling]

No the assertion is always that the law is written or inserted in human hearts.

That is a physical phenomnon that can be measured.

Why do you rigidly oppose it being measured?

Surely that is the best evidence for you claims, right?

Your thinking are very rigid, everything has to have a physical weight, even the law?? The law written on our heart is like a computer program, it weights nothing but it surely exists and runs.