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Wherein I catch a professional YEC in a lie

omega2xx

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Oh please. A possible future cannot be a fact, and obviously can't be falsified in the present.

Of course it can. If something is impossible, it is a fact. Man has known and had all of the elements of life for many years and yet have not even come close to creating even a simple life form.
 
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omega2xx

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Then don't do exactly that........




Awesome. I await your evidence for the existance of godly entities and their claimed role in the creation of the universe, the creation of life, etc.

I have said many times that the existence of God can't be proved or disproved, so I use logic.

Try it sometimes. You wont like the results but at least try it instead of accepting without any evidence what you now believe.

How do you explain the existence of matter, energy and life from lifeless elements?
 
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omega2xx

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Define perfect, as in when you say 'it seems unlikely that the universe started out as perfect as it is today.' How is the universe 'perfect'? It just is. That's like saying the number 4 is perfect because it's not 3.9999 or 4.000023 but a nice round number.

"perfect" means all of the processes work exactly the same all the time--water always boils at the same temperature under the same conditions---corn always produces not only corn but the exact same variety ----dogs always produce dogs. If they are the same breed they will produce the same breed. If they are different breed, they will produce a different breed but they will ALWAYS produce another dog---parents with no gene for bones will never a kid with bones.

These basic scientific truths have never changed, and you can't show where they have ever varied.

When we look into the fine details of the universe, it's based on chaos not order. See quantum physics. It only appears 'perfectly ordered' because you're looking at it at a high level where the underlying chaos has been averaged out.

Here is a another perfect example of you saying something for which you offer no evidence. quantum physics is the poster child ford wild speculation. What does is say is chaos in the universe?

Just because I can't 'prove it' doesn't mean that my view of the universe and how it works isn't massively more accurate than yours.

That's right but when you say a dog-like animal eventually became a whale, you need to explain HOW that is possible genetically.


It's not a matter of proving anything, but whose theories or wild conjectures, are better at explaining the universe.

They are not. Some of them are so absurd even a cave man would not accept them. IMO there are only 2 possibilities. God did it or matter, energy and life are eternal. They have always existed.


From what we've been able to find out, modern physics does a pretty damn good job at explaining the universe.

Honest scientist admit they can' explain the origin of the universe.

How well does religion explain the universe, and can you back up any claims that you make?

I have admitted I can't and offered what I considered them most logical explanation.

I can show that science's explanation for how the universe was formed has supporting evidence and isn't just wild conjecture. How can you do the same for religion?

Then do it. I say you can't.
 
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DogmaHunter

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I have said many times that the existence of God can't be proved or disproved, so I use logic.

Right, right... so everyone needs evidence for their claims, except you.

Got it.

Try it sometimes. You wont like the results but at least try it instead of accepting without any evidence what you now believe.

I don't believe things that aren't supported by evidence.
I'm not religious.

How do you explain the existence of matter, energy and life from lifeless elements?

I don't because it is unknown.

You also don't know, even if you claim otherwise (without evidence) because your faith based religion requires you to.

None of those things are relevant to evolution theory though. Matter, energy and life all exist and we can study them and unravel how they work. Regardless of where they come from.

Life works the way it does, no matter how it originated.
 
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omega2xx

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No. As long as you hold on to that notion you will never understand what a "species" is or how speciation happens.

I know what a species is. Apparently you don;t. I know speciation does not result in a new species. Something else you don' know.


That's why I keep asking you how much math you know. How far back to we have to go with this? High school algebra & geometry? College level calculus and differential equations? Have you ever taken a course in inferential statistic?

How far I have one in math is irrelevant until you show how it supports evolution.

What's a "kind?"

Dog---cat---corn---robin---bass.
 
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omega2xx

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I didn't even mention a closed system. What I wanted you to find out is the increase in entropy is a criteria for spontaneity.

I have no idea. How do you know there has been an increase in entropy? It is my understanding, which is limited, is that entropy cannot increase in a closed system
 
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omega2xx

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Right, right... so everyone needs evidence for their claims, except you.

Got it.

If you are going to try to read between the lines, you need a coach. I have said many,many times I ca'[t prove what I believe and you can disprove it.

I don't believe things that aren't supported by evidence.
I'm not religious.

Then present the evidenced for natural selection. This discussion is not about religion, it is about science.



I don't because it is unknown.

You also don't know, even if you claim otherwise (without evidence) because your faith based religion requires you to.

This is not about religion, it is about science.

None of those things are relevant to evolution theory though. Matter, energy and life all exist and we can study them and unravel how they work. Regardless of where they come from.

Evolution needs explain the origin of life and how it evolved from a common source.

Life works the way it does, no matter how it originated.

Right.
 
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DogmaHunter

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If you are going to try to read between the lines, you need a coach. I have said many,many times I ca'[t prove what I believe and you can disprove it.

I you can't demonstrate what you believe, why should I (or anyone else, for that matter) care about what you believe?

Then present the evidenced for natural selection.

Slow gazelle = less chance of escaping fast lion.
Fast gazelle = more chance of escaping fast lion.

Natural selection: favours fast gazelles.

Done.


This discussion is not about religion, it is about science.

Is it? Then why are you insisting on countering the science with religious claims about gods that, as per your own acknowledgement, are unfalsifiable, unprovable and unsupportable?


Evolution needs explain the origin of life

No. Evolution needs to explain to origins of species. And it does. Very elegantly and in testable ways.


You can't agree to this and at the same time demand that evolution explains the origins of life. That is in contradiction.
 
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Jimmy D

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OK, Omega, you're too smart for me. You win and evolution can't possibly work and we are left without an explanation for the diversity of life.

Now what?

Well, we can only assume all the different species were magically created out of thin air....

by Buddha.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Dog---cat---corn---robin---bass.

I'm sorry, but how are those examples of a kind?
You do know that corn, robins and bass are all sub-species of grains, birds and fish respectively, right?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Of course it can. If something is impossible, it is a fact. Man has known and had all of the elements of life for many years and yet have not even come close to creating even a simple life form.
If your 'logic' was correct, we could never achieve more than we've already achieved.

Research takes time, be it manned flight or power from nuclear fission. All the principle elements for life have been achieved empirically in appropriate environments, including self-assembly of vesicles, RNA, basic metabolic pathways, etc. They have not yet been combined into a complete system.

“If someone says: "That's impossible."
You should understand it as: "According to my very limited experience and narrow understanding of reality, that's very unlikely"”
- Paul Buchheit
 
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tas8831

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Huh...
That is no different than the great number of dog varieties in the same length of time.
It is tremendously different.

Where did you get 4000 years? You just made that up with no evidence. Evolutionist have gotten very good at make believe.

Well see, I got it from creationists! For the flood is claimed to have occurred about 4000 years ago, and thus all extant diversity had to have arisen from a breeding pair (or 7 clean pairs) of 'kinds' off the ark.

But thanks for admitting it is make-believe.

Not if God put them in a state of hibernation or they were babies.

Did God do this?

Chapter and verse please.
If you figure out the CF of the ark and he average size of the animals, there is plenty of room for food.

Actually, I was working from these values and the known amount of food and water consumption of elephants.

I know that creationists like to try to impress people with big numbers, but they seem to calculate the volume of the ark based solely on its supposed external dimensions - I've never seen such an estimate that took into account things like the floors, internal walls and supports, etc.
Unless your can prove there is not an omnipotent God, you lose.
Unless you can prove evolution did not occur, you lose.

And by the way - as I will be adopting the techniques of evangelicals, I will dismiss or reject any of the 'proof' you provide!
 
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tas8831

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It is not that there is no evidence. It is impossible for lifeless elements to produce life. Even science admits that.

Jehovah the Intelligent Designer wins.

So no evidence for Jehovah doing anything.

Got it.

You lose.
 
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tas8831

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Not necessary for those who understand even basic genetics.
Interesting - surely you are not implying that YOU do?

I have taught genetics for a few years - show me what you think you know!
 
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tas8831

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You have been taught by evolutionists, who were taught by evolutionists who were taught by evolutionists and they NEVER PRESENTED any verifiable scientific evidence that supports evolution.

First of all I did not pontificate.

Funny.
 
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tas8831

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Talk is cheap. Prove me wrong, then present the evidence for anything the TOE preaches. Your post are all rhetoric and not evidence.
I've posted this like 8 times, and a couple of other posters posted this well before I got here. Yet creationists keep claiming that there is no evidence....

And by the way - since you have implied that you have at least a basic understanding of genetics, this should not be too far above your pay grade:

I forget now who originally posted these on this forum, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it:

The tested methodology:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



We can ASSUME that the results of an application of those methods have merit.


Application of the tested methodology:

Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "



Catarrhine phylogeny: noncoding DNA evidence for a diphyletic origin of the mangabeys and for a human-chimpanzee clade.

"The Superfamily Hominoidea for apes and humans is reduced to family Hominidae within Superfamily Cercopithecoidea, with all living hominids placed in subfamily Homininae; and (4) chimpanzees and humans are members of a single genus, Homo, with common and bonobo chimpanzees placed in subgenus H. (Pan) and humans placed in subgenus H. (Homo). It may be noted that humans and chimpanzees are more than 98.3% identical in their typical nuclear noncoding DNA and probably more than 99.5% identical in the active coding nucleotide sequences of their functional nuclear genes (Goodman et al., 1989, 1990). In mammals such high genetic correspondence is commonly found between sibling species below the generic level but not between species in different genera."
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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You can't tell because you haven't offered any evidence for me to evaluate.
I'm not going to spoon feed you.

That is exactly what real science deals in, but since evolution has no basic scientific truth the disciple of Darwin have twisted and lied about what real science does.
Lol! you have no idea. The only scientific truths are observed facts - i.e. the data on which hypotheses are based, and on which theories are built. Evolution is observed, it is a fact. The theory of evolution is not a fact, it explains the facts.

There are Christian scientist who reject what you accept. and they are far better qualified in science than you are.
Science is a broad church - far more Christian scientists accept it than reject it, and very few Christian scientists better qualified in evolutionary biology reject it.
 
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tas8831

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I have said many times that the existence of God can't be proved or disproved, so I use logic.

It looks more to me like you employ logical fallacies, not actual logic.
 
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pitabread

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OK, Omega, you're too smart for me. You win and evolution can't possibly work and we are left without an explanation for the diversity of life.

Now what?

mgc.gif
 
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