Where Mary's seemingly deistic identity stems from...

[Tdigaetano]

The Sacred Heart of Mary is the Heart that was peirced whe she saw her Son and Lord die on the Cross...

Some people say that Mary never really knew that Jesus was the Christ... dispite having been told by an angle that she would bring him into the world, dispite having raised him for about 30 years.

In the Gosple according to Luke at the end of each event, in the early life of Christ it says that Mary held all of these things in her Heart. No one on Earth could ever have a relationship with Jesus that Mary had. Yes, people can get close, but never actually be there and watch and help God grow up as a Man.

Jesus was sinless, that is the only way that he could be a true sacrifice for our sins. If Mary had sinned, Jesus would have inherrited the sins from his mother, as we all have inherrited our Sinfulness from Adam.

So, at the moment of Mary's conception God put emity between her and the devil as written in Genesis 3. So that she could bring into the world our Savior. If Mary did sin later on in life then God's promise to her would of been null and void, so he had to bestow upon her the grace needed to ensure that she would be able to reject sin her entire life.

I am unsure what the whole co-redemptix thing is because we are all co-redemers in our own salvation. We have to Believe in Jesus in order to be saved.... so we need to accept him and co-operate with him in order to recieve his saving grace, then we need to follow him and keep his commandments. Though Faith we are justified, through Hope we can over come adversity, and through Love we can bring peace to the world.

In the end Love is the greatest of these, because it is the only thing that is left of us when we go and stand before the seat of Judgement, and the Lord will say one of two things to us....

Blessed are you who Loved me, for you are welcomed into Heaven.

or

Get away from me, you who did not love me, you will be cast out into the darkness and out of my sight.

Both type of people will ask when did we love you, and Christ will say "When you loved the least of your brothers you loved me."

 

[Kristos]

I beg to differ. This sort of thing is in keeping with the general tenor of the Marian dogmas declared to be infallible in the mid-twentieth century by the Pope. The results of these pronouncements have been far-reaching. The apparent intent was to further solidify the unique identity of the RCC in opposition to other denominations. One result was that it created a larger chasm between the RCC and the EOC, as well as the Protestant denominations. Another has been that it fueled much of the latent Mariology within Roman Catholicism which is now pressing the papacy to infallibly proclaim Mary as co-redemptrix.

Given the OP, this is in keeping with the discussion at hand.

maybe you're right. I don't really know much about RCC or what they do on a regular basis.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The difficulty with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is that there is not the slightest reason that Mary had to be born without original sin herself in order to bear Jesus Christ and not pass on her sinful nature to her son. If that were the case (a sinful nature being passed along at birth) then Mary's mother would have had to had a sinless nature, as well, or God performed a miracle which He could and, I believe, He did at the conception of Christ and not at the conception of Mary. The divine intervention of God, the Holy Spirit, in the conception of Jesus Christ is a well-established biblical fact whereas there is not the slightest scintilla of evidence in the Bible of any such thing in the conception of Mary.

 

[narnia59]

The difficulty with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is that there is not the slightest reason that Mary had to be born without original sin herself in order to bear Jesus Christ and not pass on her sinful nature to her son. If that were the case (a sinful nature being passed along at birth) then Mary's mother would have had to had a sinless nature, as well, or God performed a miracle which He could and, I believe, He did at the conception of Christ and not at the conception of Mary. The divine intervention of God, the Holy Spirit, in the conception of Jesus Christ is a well-established biblical fact whereas there is not the slightest scintilla of evidence in the Bible of any such thing in the conception of Mary.

While you will sometimes see the 'red' above used regarding the Immaculate Conception, you are correct in that this is not a requirement and is not the foundation for the doctrine. It is much more rooted in an understanding of the nature of God. If you study God in the OT you will find that his dwelling places were sanctified. Moses had to remove his sandals because he was standing on 'holy' ground.

The OT archetype or foreshadowing of Mary is the Ark of the Covenant. Made of purest gold, there are pages and pages dedicated to the instructions for building it in the OT. Why? Because it was to be the dwelling place of God. It was totally sanctified before God entered the Ark. Why? Because for God to dwell within it, it must be holy. To believe that God would choose to dwell in a vessel of sin for nine months is contrary to what we know about the nature of God.

This does not mean that Mary did not require a Savior. The doctrine of the IC is specific that she did -- her salvation was merited by her son on the cross. It simply states that God in his omnipresence knew she would cooperate with the grace of salvation, and didn't have to 'wait' for the point in time when she would actually do so. Her salvation was procured in the same manner as the rest of us; it was applied uniquely because of the unique role she was to play.

 

[MamaZ]

Mary did not need to be sinless to carry the sinless Christ. For it was not from Mary that Christ got His sinlessness but in the fact that He is God made flesh..It is not Mary who is the ark of the covenant but Christ for when they crucifed Him the curtain was torn. He is the living ark of the Covenant for the new Covenant is His blood shed for sin.. Therefore the ark is indeed Christ for He alone is God with us emmanuel..

 

[narnia59]

Mary did not need to be sinless to carry the sinless Christ. For it was not from Mary that Christ got His sinlessness but in the fact that He is God made flesh..It is not Mary who is the ark of the covenant but Christ for when they crucifed Him the curtain was torn. He is the living ark of the Covenant for the new Covenant is His blood shed for sin.. Therefore the ark is indeed Christ for He alone is God with us emmanuel..

The ark was the place where God dwelled, not God.

I agree with you that Mary did not need to be sinless for Christ to be sinless. But I also believe it is contrary to the nature of God to choose to dwell in a vessel of sin for 9 months. There are 6 chapters in the Book of Exodus devoted to intricate instructions on how to build and sanctify the Ark, wherein God would dwell. Get the feeling He might be a little bit picky?

The curtain that was torn was in the temple, not the Ark. The Ark of the Covenant had been lost for hundreds of years prior to the time of Christ. And Christ is indeed the new temple.

 

[MamaZ]

The ark was the place where God dwelled, not God.

I agree with you that Mary did not need to be sinless for Christ to be sinless. But I also believe it is contrary to the nature of God to choose to dwell in a vessel of sin for 9 months. There are 6 chapters in the Book of Exodus devoted to intricate instructions on how to build and sanctify the Ark, wherein God would dwell. Get the feeling He might be a little bit picky?

The curtain that was torn was in the temple, not the Ark. The Ark of the Covenant had been lost for hundreds of years prior to the time of Christ. And Christ is indeed the new temple.

And God dwelt in the Human Body. Get it? The Human body of Christ. Mary was a mere human woman that carried the unborn Christ in the womb. She is blessed among women for she is the only vessel that was chosen for this mission.. She is not Bless-ed.. She is not above any other woman.

 

[Kristos]

And God dwelt in the Human Body. Get it? The Human body of Christ. Mary was a mere human woman that carried the unborn Christ in the womb. She is blessed among women for she is the only vessel that was chosen for this mission.. She is not Bless-ed.. She is not above any other woman.

WOW! That's headed in the wrong direction - better get a hold of your Christology before you martyr it attacking Mary.

It is very historical and theologically sound to draw the parallel or typology between the Ark and Mary.

 

[MamaZ]

WOW! That's headed in the wrong direction - better get a hold of your Christology before you martyr it attacking Mary.

It is very historical and theologically sound to draw the parallel or typology between the Ark and Mary.

Mary is the vessel that carried the human body of the living Christ. We His people are the vessel that carries the Spiritual Christ. I have never attacked Mary..

 

[Kristos]

Mary is the vessel that carried the human body of the living Christ. We His people are the vessel that carries the Spiritual Christ. I have never attacked Mary..

You're desire to separate the human body of Christ, which was bore by marry and his divinity sounds awefully Nestorian. Seriously, you might want consider what you are saying and do a little research.

 

[katherine2001]

WOW! That's headed in the wrong direction - better get a hold of your Christology before you martyr it attacking Mary.

It is very historical and theologically sound to draw the parallel or typology between the Ark and Mary.

As Kristos said, you need to study Christology before you attack His mother. She did not just carry Him. He received His humanity from her, both His Human nature and His human flesh. If they'd been able to do DNA testing in those days, His DNA would have matched hers. Remember also that Mary had to be holy in order for God to chose her, and she had to agree to what He asked her to do. Look how many centuries it took for Mary to be created--a woman holy enough to provide the humanity for His Son's incarnation and to carry Him in her womb. And since God gives us free will and doesn't force us to do things even though He has the power to do so, if Mary had said no, we would not have had Jesus. God did not have a Plan B if Mary said no. If God had found another woman to say yes, it would not have been the same Jesus, because He would have inherited a different human nature than the one that He inherited from Mary. Mary is often referred to as the "New Eve" because she said "yes" to God and brought salvation into the world through her Son.

 

[katherine2001]

Mary is the vessel that carried the human body of the living Christ. We His people are the vessel that carries the Spiritual Christ. I have never attacked Mary..

We did not give Christ His human nature and His human body--Mary did that. We did not carry Him in our wombs and give birth to Him. Christ was and is not two persons. There is one Jesus with two natures--human and divine. He was always both in one person. A mother is mother to all of her child, not just the part that comes from her. Therefore, she is mother to both His human and divine natures, as they cannot be separated. Mary carried both the humanity and divinity of Christ in her womb. Nobody else can say that. And Christ is not just Spirit. Christ is still both Human and Divine--He has not given up either one for the other. I worship and contain the Jesus who is both Human and Divine. Jesus was both at all times. If there were two persons, then how can you know that we are saved? Which one was crucified, and which one was resurrected? Which one ascended to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father? Which one lived a sinless life? If the one person who was both human and divine didn't do every one of these things, then we are not saved.

 

[MamaZ]

As Kristos said, you need to study Christology before you attack His mother. She did not just carry Him. He received His humanity from her, both His Human nature and His human flesh. If they'd been able to do DNA testing in those days, His DNA would have matched hers. Remember also that Mary had to be holy in order for God to chose her, and she had to agree to what He asked her to do. Look how many centuries it took for Mary to be created--a woman holy enough to provide the humanity for His Son's incarnation and to carry Him in her womb. And since God gives us free will and doesn't force us to do things even though He has the power to do so, if Mary had said no, we would not have had Jesus. God did not have a Plan B if Mary said no. If God had found another woman to say yes, it would not have been the same Jesus, because He would have inherited a different human nature than the one that He inherited from Mary. Mary is often referred to as the "New Eve" because she said "yes" to God and brought salvation into the world through her Son.

Mary had to no wise be any more Holy for Christ to be carried by her in the flesh as any of Gods people do that carry Christ in the Spirit. For it is not the human that makes Christ Holy. It is indeed the fact that He is indeed God. This is why the people of God that carry Christ in the Spirit are made Holy because Christ lives in them. Same with Mary.

 

[MamaZ]

We did not give Christ His human nature and His human body--Mary did that.
Yes she did. I have said this


We did not carry Him in our wombs and give birth to Him. Christ was and is not two persons.
No one said He was two persons. But He was God before He became flesh. Therfore meaning that His divine was before He became human. He took on a body of flesh and bones.

There is one Jesus with two natures--human and divine. He was always both in one person.
Therefore, she is mother to both His human and divine natures, as they cannot be separated.
Who said they could? She was not though the reason for His divinity but for His flesh.

Mary carried both the humanity and divinity of Christ in her womb. Nobody else can say that.
And Christ is not just Spirit.
Christ is the life Giving Spirit as scripture says He is. He has a glorified body now. One that is uncorruptable. He is not flesh and blood. For flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven.
Here is some scripture
1Co 15:45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
Christ is still both Human and Divine-
Read above
Here is some more scripture for you..
2Co 5:16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
-He has not given up either one for the other. I worship and contain the Jesus who is both Human and Divine. Jesus was both at all times. If there were two persons, then how can you know that we are saved? Which one was crucified, and which one was resurrected? Which one ascended to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father? Which one lived a sinless life? If the one person who was both human and divine didn't do every one of these things, then we are not saved.

Read the above answers.

 

[GBTWC]

He received His humanity from her, both His Human nature and His human flesh.

are you serious that is so unscriptural Im not even sure youve read the Bible

Mary had to be holy in order for God to chose her

and why do you say that ? that doesnt match up with scripture either

and she had to agree to what He asked her to do.

ya becouse if she hadn't agreed God couldn't have convinced her

Look how many centuries it took for Mary to be created

oh boy You do know that God can create something from nothing in any moment in time in the blink of an eye dont you? and the bible says Christ came in the fullness of time not in the fullness of Mary ?

And since God gives us free will and doesn't force us to do things even though He has the power to do so, if Mary had said no, we would not have had Jesus.

ya that's not heretical at all

God did not have a Plan B

oh dear I hope your not teaching this great religious view to anybody

if Mary said no. If God had found another woman to say yes, it would not have been the same Jesus, because He would have inherited a different human nature than the one that He inherited from Mary.

yes if it wasn't for Mary God would have been all washed upI dont see why us protestants think Mary worship is so out of hand these views are perfectly safe

Mary is often referred to as the "New Eve" because she said "yes" to God and brought salvation into the world through her Son.

and there you have it Mary being elevated to deity or at least taking the responsibility for Christs deity . what was it satan professed? oh ya ! " I shall ascend and become like the most High"


:o

 

[lionroar0]

Mary had to no wise be any more Holy for Christ to be carried by her in the flesh as any of Gods people do that carry Christ in the Spirit. For it is not the human that makes Christ Holy. It is indeed the fact that He is indeed God. This is why the people of God that carry Christ in the Spirit are made Holy because Christ lives in them. Same with Mary.

Carrying the Spirit of Christ and carrying His person are two different things.

Mary carried the person of Christ. She had The Eternal God with in her both in His divinity and humanity. No one else in history can claim this.

Salvation is not only spiritual but also physical.

We are saved by the pain that His flesh and divinity bore on the cross.

Peace

 

[MamaZ]

Carrying the Spirit of Christ and carrying His person are two different things.

Mary carried the person of Christ. She had The Eternal God with in her both in His divinity and humanity. No one else in history can claim this.

Salvation is not only spiritual but also physical.

We are saved by the pain that His flesh and divinity bore on the cross.

Peace

Actually no they are not any different.. We have the Spirit of Christ in us and we all are sinners saved by Gods grace. The Holy Spirit is just as Holy as the Babe Christ was. Mary is blessed to have carried Him in the flesh but we are ever as blessed by carrying His Spirit for it is Gods doing and nothing that we ourselves have done. Marys mission was to carry Christ in the flesh. Christian men and women mission is to carry Christ in the Spirit. For we no longer know Christ in the flesh.

 

[MamaZ]

Mary had to bow her heart and Knee to Christ just like any one else. For it is through Him that she too was saved.

 

[lionroar0]

Actually no they are not any different.. We have the Spirit of Christ in us and we all are sinners saved by Gods grace. The Holy Spirit is just as Holy as the Babe Christ was. Mary is blessed to have carried Him in the flesh but we are ever as blessed by carrying His Spirit for it is Gods doing and nothing that we ourselves have done. Marys mission was to carry Christ in the flesh. Christian men and women mission is to carry Christ in the Spirit. For we no longer know Christ in the flesh.

Yes it is different because we do not carry Jesus' divinity and humanity with in us. Mary did. She carried everything that is God with in her. We do no carry everything that is God with in us.

We carry His Spirit according to our limited and imperfect capacity.

That is is heresy. Mary carried Jesus the person who is God and Human. One cannot seperate His person into two. Jesus was 100% human and God from the moment of His conception with in Mary's womb.

Mary's mission was to carry the person of Jesus who is both human and divine. She also carried His Spirit for she was saved by Him.

I'm sorry but you are just wrong. I don't know any other to put it and to seperate Jesus's person into two is heresy.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

Mary had to bow her heart and Knee to Christ just like any one else. For it is through Him that she too was saved.

No one said that she did not.


Not only did she carry everything that is God with in her but also His Spirit, because as your post points out she needed a savior.

No one else on history can claim this singular honor.

Peace