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Where Mary's seemingly deistic identity stems from...

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The Church adopted the Alexandrian Canon which protestants, over a 1,000 years later, decided to reject.





Well we'll just disagree on the relevance of that.



The Merriam-Webster's on-line dictionary says of apocryphal:
1: of doubtful authenticity : spurious
2often capitalized : of or resembling the Apocrypha
I'm surprised they have different definitions in different versions of their dictionary.



On the one hand you admit that much non-canonical writing is not untrue or spurious, yet then you dismiss all such writing as disjointed, seriously misleading and heretical

Moreover to continue to use the word apocryphal, which you accept means of doubtful authenticity, untrue or counterfeit, of any non-canonical means you are pre-judging it.

You are trying to make out that all oral tradition comes from questionable writings, whereas this is not the case as I have already indicated.

Yes there are writings which have been quite rightly rejected by the Church as not authentic and false but you cannot just dismiss all non-canonical writing as such.

I am equally puzzled by the differences in definitions between dictionaries by the same publisher.

I merely intended apocryphal to mean non-canonical. In the future, to avoid offence I shall use non-canonical to refer to those books outside the canon of the Bible, deutercanonical to refer to the seven books and portions of others in the Old Testament not originally written in Hebrew, and LXX to refer to the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament.

Am I to conclude that you agree that there is a canon of Oral Tradition which rejects pseudo-oral traditions? If so, how was it derived and when and does it have any physical existence (i.e. is is written down?).

Concerning the deutercanonical books, we need not reinvent the wheel here. Some time ago on the OBOB forum there was a thread called, "Why Did Protestants Remove Books from the Bible?" which addressed this very question. I recommend that folks here read it, even though it is quite lengthy.

Several conclusions were reached, as follow:

1. The vast majority of Catholics don't know a single thing about the deutercanonical books. Interestingly, the popular website, catholic.org, provides a list of books of the Bible which can be downloaded, but excludes the deutercanonical books entirely. When I called them, the receptionist, as well as the webmaster were entirely surprised to learn that these books even existed. I provided a link for them to use to include them on their list.
2. Although the New Testament quotes from and has direct references to every book in the Old Testament, except the book of Esther, there are no quotes or references to any of the deutercanonical books. It is alleged that there are many references and a list was provided on the aforementioned OBOB thread. However, upon investigation, it was discovered that none of the alleged references was more direct than a coincidental use of the same word. By common consent of the participants of the thread, most of whom were Catholic, it was agreed that the deutercanonical books are not quoted or directly referenced in the New Testament.
3. It is alleged that the Council of Jamnia in A.D. 70 excluded the deutercanonical books because of their Christian content. A careful reading of these books reveals virtually no Christian content whatsoever. However, other books such as the Psalms (especially 22) and Isaiah (especially chapter 53) are strongly Christian in content and would have been excluded if that were the case. However, the rationale used at the Council of Jamnia was to exclude all books not written in Hebrew. The deutercanonical books were originally written in Aramaic.
4. It is alleged that Martin Luther singlehandedly removed the deutercanonical books from the Bible. This is entirely untrue. Despite the fact the Luther held these books in extremely high esteem the Reformers, as a whole, chose to agree with the linguistic determinants used at the Council of Jamnia,
5. It is alleged that the Reformers removed these books because of the explicit Catholic doctrines contained within them which the Reformers rejected. When pressed, Catholic apologists admit that the only possible doctrine derived exclusively from the deutercanonical books is that of Purgatory and it is based on a single verse in II Maccabees. That verse hardly defines the doctrine of Purgatory, which is actually extrabiblical in its derivation.
6. It is alleged that the Reformers sided with the Jews in order to gain their support and influence in the Reformation. This is patently absurd, especially in light of Luther's strong anti-Semitism and the fact that the Jews had no support or influence to provide to anyone.
 
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GBTWC

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And? What does that prove other than men are fallable? Those other writings are not scripture. God is not the author of confusion neither is He a man that He should lie.. So these books that have error could not have come from God. Mere feeble and myths that Paul warns us about..
MamaZ although I agree with most everything youve said thus far Id be careful if calling these apocryphal books"feeble and Myths".I do agree our Lord has excluded them from the cannon of scripture therefore they should never be held as fully inspired on the same level as the Cannon. But they are useful and edifying historically, theologically, and ecclesiastically when tested in the light of true Scripture.

with Love in Christ
 
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katherine2001

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It wasn't our Lord that excluded the deuterocanonical books from the Canon. It was the Protestants who chose to use the Old Testament Canon used the Christian Church (the Septuagint) and use the Jewish Text that was determined much later. The Lord determined that the deuterocanonical books should be included.
 
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GBTWC

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It wasn't our Lord that excluded the deuterocanonical books from the Canon. It was the Protestants who chose to use the Old Testament Canon used the Christian Church (the Septuagint) and use the Jewish Text that was determined much later. The Lord determined that the deuterocanonical books should be included.
I believe it was Gods Sovereign will and this is a subject that can and probably will be debated till our Lord returns and the evidence is rather strong on both sides of the argument. but for me as a result of my personal research and prayer have decided that the apocryphal/deuterocanonical books contradict the rest of scripture there are also historical mistakes and as Mr bbbbbbb points out Jesus never referred to them nor did any of the N.t. writers with the exception of Jude and that was only as a historical reference. once again I personally dont wish to discount their value but I dont believe they were fully inspired.

It wasn't our Lord who ever quoted or chose to refer to anything in the deuterocanonical books. Relative to His quotations and direct references to the remainder of the Old Testament, it is somewhat of a conundrum that He failed even once to refer to anything in the deutercanonical books.
very good point

with love in Christ
 
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lionroar0

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I believe it was Gods Sovereign will and this is a subject that can and probably will be debated till our Lord returns and the evidence is rather strong on both sides of the argument. but for me as a result of my personal research and prayer have decided that the apocryphal/deuterocanonical books contradict the rest of scripture there are also historical mistakes and as Mr bbbbbbb points out Jesus never referred to them nor did any of the N.t. writers with the exception of Jude and that was only as a historical reference. once again I personally dont wish to discount their value but I dont believe they were fully inspired.


very good point

with love in Christ

This whole line of logic makes for a very poor argument against the deuteros.

The NT does not quote from all of the OT books and it also quotes from either sources wich no longer exist and also from apocryphal works.

Peace
 
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Kristos

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This thread is way OT, but I will add my 2 cents anyway.

It was stated that Jesus and the NT do not directly quote these books. I can accept that. But does that mean that they are not scripture? At that time, many if not most Jews considered these book scripture and certainly Jesus would have know that yet made not condemnation. References to the OT are inclusive by calling them scripture. Surely, if there were writings being used as scripture that did not belong or were in error He would have called it out, no?

With that said, these books are of relatively low importance anyway, so I don't know how much it really matters. But once in while something comes up that is explained more clearly by a book like Tobit.
 
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lionroar0

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The Jews do not accept the Apocrypha as part of their Scriptures.
[SIZE=-0]They are not, and have never been, in the Jewish canon.[/SIZE]

Why should Christians care about what the Jews say about the Scriptures? They deny the ressurection.

Peace
 
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JoabAnias

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Why the Apocrypha belongs in the bible.

The Old Testament in Catholic Bibles contains seven more books than are found in Protestant Bibles (46 and 39, respectively). Protestants call these seven books the Apocrypha and Catholics know them as the deuterocanonical books. These seven books are: Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus (or, Sirach), and Baruch. Also, Catholic Bibles contain an additional six chapters (107 verses) in the book of Esther and another three in the book of Daniel (174 verses). These books and chapters were found in Bible manuscripts in Greek only, and were not part of the Hebrew Canon of the Old Testament, as determined by the Jews.

All of these were dogmatically acknowledged as Scripture at the Council of Trent in 1548 (which means that Catholics were henceforth not allowed to question their canonicity), although the tradition of their inclusion was ancient. At the same time, the Council rejected 1 and 2 Esdras and the Prayer of Manasses as part of Sacred Scripture (these are often included in collections of the "Apocrypha" as a separate unit).

The Catholic perspective on this issue is widely misunderstood. Protestants accuse Catholics of "adding" books to the Bible, while Catholics retort that Protestants have "booted out" part of Scripture. Catholics are able to offer very solid and reasonable arguments in defense of the scriptural status of the deuterocanonical books. These can be summarized as follows:

1) They were included in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament from the third century B.C.), which was the "Bible" of the Apostles. They usually quoted the Old Testament scriptures (in the text of the New Testament) from the Septuagint.

2) Almost all of the Church Fathers regarded the Septuagint as the standard form of the Old Testament. The deuterocanonical books were in no way differentiated from the other books in the Septuagint, and were generally regarded as canonical. St. Augustine thought the Septuagint was apostolically-sanctioned and inspired, and this was the consensus in the early Church.

3) Many Church Fathers (such as St. Irenaeus, St. Cyprian, Tertullian) cite these books as Scripture without distinction. Others, mostly from the east (for example, St. Athanasius, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Gregory Nazianzus) recognized some distinction but nevertheless still customarily cited the deuterocanonical books as Scripture. St. Jerome, who translated the Hebrew Bible into Latin (the Vulgate, early fifth century), was an exception to the rule (the Church has never held that individual Fathers are infallible).

4) The Church Councils at Hippo (393) and Carthage (397, 419), influenced heavily by St. Augustine, listed the deuterocanonical books as Scripture, which was simply an endorsement of what had become the general consensus of the Church in the west and most of the east. Thus, the Council of Trent merely reiterated in stronger terms what had already been decided eleven and a half centuries earlier, and which had never been seriously challenged until the onset of Protestantism.

5) Since these Councils also finalized the 66 canonical books which all Christians accept, it is quite arbitrary for Protestants to selectively delete seven books from this authoritative Canon. This is all the more curious when the complicated, controversial history of the New Testament Canon is understood.

6) Pope Innocent I concurred with and sanctioned the canonical ruling of the above Councils (Letter to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse) in 405.

7) The earliest Greek manuscripts of the Old Testament, such as Codex Sinaiticus (fourth century), and Codex Alexandrinus (c.450) include all of the deuterocanonical books mixed in with the others and not separated.

8) The practice of collecting these books into a separate unit dates back no further than 1520 (in other words, it was a novel innovation of Protestantism). This is admitted by, for example, the Protestant New English Bible (Oxford University Press, 1976), in its "Introduction to the Apocrypha," (p.iii).

9) Protestantism, following Martin Luther, removed the deuterocanonical books from their Bibles due to their clear teaching of doctrines which had been recently repudiated by Protestants, such as prayers for the dead (Tobit 12:12, 2 Maccabees 12:39-45 ff.; cf. 1 Corinthians 15:29), intercession of dead saints (2 Maccabees 15:14; cf. Revelation 6:9-10), and intermediary intercession of angels (Tobit 12:12,15; cf. Revelation 5:8, 8:3-4). We know this from plain statements of Luther and other Reformers.

10) Luther was not content even to let the matter rest there, and proceeded to cast doubt on many other books of the Bible which are accepted as canonical by all Protestants. He considered Job and Jonah mere fables, and Ecclesiastes incoherent and incomplete. He wished that Esther (along with 2 Maccabees) "did not exist," and wanted to "toss it into the Elbe" river.

11) The New Testament fared scarcely better under Luther's gaze. He rejected from the New Testament Canon ("chief books") Hebrews, James ("epistle of straw"), Jude and Revelation, and placed them at the end of his translation, as a New Testament "Apocrypha." He regarded them as non-apostolic. Of the book of Revelation he said, "Christ is not taught or known in it." These opinions are found in Luther's Prefaces to biblical books, in his German translation of 1522.

12) Although the New Testament does not quote any of these books directly, it does closely reflect the thought of the deuterocanonical books in many passages. For example, Revelation 1:4 and 8:3-4 appear to make reference to Tobit 12:15:

Revelation 1:4 Grace to you . . . from the seven spirits who are before his throne. {see also 3:1, 4:5, 5:6}
Revelation 8:3-4 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

{see also Revelation 5:8}

Tobit 12:15 I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One.

St. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15:29, seems to have 2 Maccabees 12:44 in mind. This saying of Paul is one of the most difficult in the New Testament for Protestants to interpret, given their theology:
1 Corinthians 15:29 Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?
2 Maccabees 12:44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.

This passage of St. Paul shows that it was the custom of the early Church to watch, pray and fast for the souls of the deceased. In Scripture, to be baptized is often a metaphor for affliction or (in the Catholic understanding) penance (for example, Matthew 3:11, Mark 10:38-39, Luke 3:16, 12:50). Since those in heaven have no need of prayer, and those in hell can't benefit from it, these practices, sanctioned by St. Paul, must be directed towards those in purgatory. Otherwise, prayers and penances for the dead make no sense, and this seems to be largely what Paul is trying to bring out. The "penance interpretation" is contextually supported by the next three verses, where St. Paul speaks of Why am I in peril every hour? . . . I die every day, and so forth.
As a third example, Hebrews 11:35 mirrors the thought of 2 Maccabees 7:29:

Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might rise again to a better life.
2 Maccabees 7:29 Do not fear this butcher, but prove worthy of your brothers. Accept death, so that in God's mercy I may get you back again with your brothers.

{a mother speaking to her son: see 7:25-26}

13) Ironically, in some of the same verses where the New Testament is virtually quoting the "Apocrypha," doctrines are taught which are rejected by Protestantism, and which were a major reason why the deuterocanonical books were "demoted" by them. Therefore, it was not as easy to eliminate these disputed doctrines from the Bible as it was (and is) supposed, and Protestants still must grapple with much New Testament data which does not comport with their beliefs.

14) Despite this lowering of the status of the deuterocanonical books by Protestantism, they were still widely retained separately in Protestant Bibles for a long period of time (unlike the prevailing practice today). John Wycliffe, considered a forerunner of Protestantism, included them in his English translation. Luther himself kept them separately in his Bible, describing them generally as (although sub-scriptural) "useful and good to read." Zwingli and the Swiss Protestants, and the Anglicans maintained them in this secondary sense also. The English Geneva Bible (1560) and Bishop's Bible (1568) both included them as a unit. Even the Authorized, or King James Version of 1611 contained the "Apocrypha" as a matter of course. And up to the present time many Protestant Bibles continue this practice. The revision of the King James Bible (completed in 1895) included these books, as did the Revised Standard Version (1957), the New English Bible (1970), and the Goodspeed Bible (1939), among others.

15) The deuterocanonical books are read regularly in public worship in Anglicanism, and also among the Eastern Orthodox, and most Protestants and Jews fully accept their value as historical and religious documents, useful for teaching, even though they deny them full canonical status.

It is apparent, then, that the Catholic "case" for these scriptural books carries a great deal of weight, certainly at the very least equal to the Protestant view.
 
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Tob 6:1 And as they went on their journey, they came in the evening to the river Tigris, and they lodged there.
Tob 6:2 And when the young man went down to wash himself, a fish leaped out of the river, and would have devoured him.
Tob 6:3 Then the angel said unto him, Take the fish. And the young man laid hold of the fish, and drew it to land.
Tob 6:4 To whom the angel said, Open the fish, and take the heart and the liver and the gall, and put them up safely.
Tob 6:5 So the young man did as the angel commanded him; and when they had roasted the fish, they did eat it: then they both went on their way, till they drew near to Ecbatane.
Tob 6:6 Then the young man said to the angel, Brother Azarias, to what use is the heart and the liver and the gal of the fish?
Tob 6:7 And he said unto him, Touching the heart and the liver, if a devil or an evil spirit trouble any, we must make a smoke thereof before the man or the woman, and the party shall be no more vexed.
Tob 6:8 As for the gall, it is good to anoint a man that hath whiteness in his eyes, and he shall be healed.
Tob 6:9 And when they were come near to Rages,
Tob 6:10 The angel said to the young man, Brother, to day we shall lodge with Raguel, who is thy cousin; he also hath one only daughter, named Sara; I will speak for her, that she may be given thee for a wife.
Tob 6:11 For to thee doth the right of her appertain, seeing thou only art of her kindred.
Tob 6:12 And the maid is fair and wise: now therefore hear me, and I will speak to her father; and when we return from Rages we will celebrate the marriage: for I know that Raguel cannot marry her to another according to the law of Moses, but he shall be guilty of death, because the right of inheritance doth rather appertain to thee than to any other.
Tob 6:13 Then the young man answered the angel, I have heard, brother Azarias that this maid hath been given to seven men, who all died in the marriage chamber.
Tob 6:14 And now I am the only son of my father, and I am afraid, lest if I go in unto her, I die, as the other before: for a wicked spirit loveth her, which hurteth no body, but those which come unto her; wherefore I also fear lest I die, and bring my father's and my mother's life because of me to the grave with sorrow: for they have no other son to bury them.
Tob 6:15 Then the angel said unto him, Dost thou not remember the precepts which thy father gave thee, that thou shouldest marry a wife of thine own kindred? wherefore hear me, O my brother; for she shall be given thee to wife; and make thou no reckoning of the evil spirit; for this same night shall she be given thee in marriage.
Tob 6:16 And when thou shalt come into the marriage chamber, thou shalt take the ashes of perfume, and shalt lay upon them some of the heart and liver of the fish, and shalt make a smoke with it:
Tob 6:17 And the devil shall smell it, and flee away, and never come again any more: but when thou shalt come to her, rise up both of you, and pray to God which is merciful, who will have pity on you, and save you: fear not, for she is appointed unto thee from the beginning; and thou shalt preserve her, and she shall go with thee. Moreover I suppose that she shall bear thee children. Now when Tobias had heard these things, he loved her, and his heart was effectually joined to her.:eek:
 
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GBTWC

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Im not sure why martin Luther is always brought in to debates on the cannon He's not our authority as Christians OR if you insist protestants, plus there were Church fathers that rejected the apocryphal books much earlier than martin Luther.

BTW could you refresh my memory on what exactly this debate on the cannon has to do with the OP ?

just for arguments sake lets say every book that was ever considered scripture by the early church was all still cannon could you then prove we should glorify Mary in the manner that the prayer in the OP suggests

Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty, and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, 0 Immacuate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.
Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery, we admire and praise the peerless richness of sublime gifts with which God has filled you, above every other mere creature, from the first moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.
O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! 0 Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell!
O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cry which rises up from every heart. Bend tenderly over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and oppressed, comfort the poor and humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity in youth, protect the holy Church, make all men feel the attraction of Christian goodness. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that they are brothers, and that the nations are members of one family, upon which may there shine forth the sun of a universal and sincere peace.
Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people! Amen.



if scripture backs up elevating Mary as our co redemptress where ?

if it shows were to go to God through Mary were ?

its interesting to me this Mary debate in my opinion boils down to our views on salvation.

I believe By the Grace God Im born again and can come boldly b-4 the thrown of God through the Only begotten Son of God the father I have salvation

Correct me if Im Wrong but both Cataholics and Orthodox Gotta do some spiritual gymnastics depending on which one you are, you aren't pure enough to approach God till youve either been to confession or you cant pray to God directly so you gotta go through a Saint

I think if these questions are answered it would help to see what this debate is really about

 
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GBTWC

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Tob 6:1And as they went on their journey, they came in the evening to the river Tigris, and they lodged there.
Tob 6:2And when the young man went down to wash himself, a fish leaped out of the river, and would have devoured him.
Tob 6:3Then the angel said unto him, Take the fish. And the young man laid hold of the fish, and drew it to land.
Tob 6:4To whom the angel said, Open the fish, and take the heart and the liver and the gall, and put them up safely.
Tob 6:5So the young man did as the angel commanded him; and when they had roasted the fish, they did eat it: then they both went on their way, till they drew near to Ecbatane.
Tob 6:6Then the young man said to the angel, Brother Azarias, to what use is the heart and the liver and the gal of the fish?
Tob 6:7And he said unto him, Touching the heart and the liver, if a devil or an evil spirit trouble any, we must make a smoke thereof before the man or the woman, and the party shall be no more vexed.
Tob 6:8As for the gall, it is good to anoint a man that hath whiteness in his eyes, and he shall be healed.
Tob 6:9And when they were come near to Rages,
Tob 6:10The angel said to the young man, Brother, to day we shall lodge with Raguel, who is thy cousin; he also hath one only daughter, named Sara; I will speak for her, that she may be given thee for a wife.
Tob 6:11For to thee doth the right of her appertain, seeing thou only art of her kindred.
Tob 6:12And the maid is fair and wise: now therefore hear me, and I will speak to her father; and when we return from Rages we will celebrate the marriage: for I know that Raguel cannot marry her to another according to the law of Moses, but he shall be guilty of death, because the right of inheritance doth rather appertain to thee than to any other.
Tob 6:13Then the young man answered the angel, I have heard, brother Azarias that this maid hath been given to seven men, who all died in the marriage chamber.
Tob 6:14And now I am the only son of my father, and I am afraid, lest if I go in unto her, I die, as the other before: for a wicked spirit loveth her, which hurteth no body, but those which come unto her; wherefore I also fear lest I die, and bring my father's and my mother's life because of me to the grave with sorrow: for they have no other son to bury them.
Tob 6:15Then the angel said unto him, Dost thou not remember the precepts which thy father gave thee, that thou shouldest marry a wife of thine own kindred? wherefore hear me, O my brother; for she shall be given thee to wife; and make thou no reckoning of the evil spirit; for this same night shall she be given thee in marriage.
Tob 6:16And when thou shalt come into the marriage chamber, thou shalt take the ashes of perfume, and shalt lay upon them some of the heart and liver of the fish, and shalt make a smoke with it:
Tob 6:17And the devil shall smell it, and flee away, and never come again any more: but when thou shalt come to her, rise up both of you, and pray to God which is merciful, who will have pity on you, and save you: fear not, for she is appointed unto thee from the beginning; and thou shalt preserve her, and she shall go with thee. Moreover I suppose that she shall bear thee children. Now when Tobias had heard these things, he loved her, and his heart was effectually joined to her.:eek:

that sounds like voodoo

I have :thumbsup: if you are referring to the use of fish,
1. Merck Pharmaceuticals did not yet exist; medicinals were naturally derived
maybe I missed it becouse this is the first time Ive read this passage but what did they need Pharmakia for? becouse this definitely sounds like voodoo dude
2. there is neither "spell" nor "demonic incantation" given
then there is medicinal value to smoking fish livers and hearts ? it sounds like they might have been smokin something else if you know what I mean :p
 
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