Where Mary's seemingly deistic identity stems from...

[JoabAnias]

yes that tradition did pre-exist the N.T. cannon but its still mans tradition there is a reason God chose to speak through His Son in these last days (Heb 1:2) and not through prophets, becouse prophets take the glory sometimes, sometimes they blow it ,prophets are humans with sinfull nature God will not force His divine will through us if it goes against the free will hes given us but on the otherhand ,paper and ink have no freewill and God can and does preserve His Word through the scriptures. tradition is man made and is only right when measured against scripture.

Yet the cannon of scripture is also the result of tradition. This line of reasoning would make tradition uninspired by God because of mans weaknesses and the same reasoning could then be applied to the written word then being uninspired as well as God chose to inspire men to put it to papyrus and later canonize it.

 

[MamaZ]

Something else I don't think is recognized here is that the tradition in question pre-existed the New Covenant Scriptures which were a result of said tradition. Although all of the Gospel is written truth, all truth is not written, only a smidgen.

They sure did and Jesus was not too happy with them. All we need to be fully equipped is the written scriptures. He has made His word sure. Oral tradtion as you say is to be passed down from mouth to mouth to ear to ear and Paul didn't even suggest this. The oral tradtion he was speaking about was to come from His own mouth. Paul is no longer with us so therefore we do not have his oral all we have is his written letters. Scripture.Tradtions are of man. Scripture is of God.

 

[GBTWC]

Yet the cannon of scripture is also the result of tradition.

No the cannaon of scripture is the result of God using sinfull man as a vessel ,God could have written it miraculously in stone like the ten comandments or or adapted it as a musical for the stage if He wanted .The point is God would have created the cannon with or without tradition .

This line of reasoning would make tradition uninspired by God because of mans weaknesses

yep. the pharisees had tradition ask yourself how did they do with that? this doesnt mean man is never inspired or moved upon by God the scripture makes it clear there is even the specific gift of prophecy. but just like the Game of telephone mans word gets corrupted as were God keep scripture by His divine power.

and the same reasoning could then be applied to the written word then being uninspired as well as .

that's wrong as I explained in a previous post man can receive divine instruction but still foul it up man has freewill. paper and ink have no freewill .

God chose to inspire men to put it to papyrus and later canonize it.

yes praise God He had them write it down becouse He knew we'd screw it up like so many times in the past.

the bottom line is the bible shows us the dead in Christ are eternally being taken from one point of being stoked to another and they have their whole being focused on the Lord as we should . the scripture gives no evidence that they can or do watch us ,in fact scripture shows us that its probably demonic if we are communicating with the dead remember satan and his demons can transform themselves into the likeness of angels of light.


with love in Christ

 

[Amylisa]

Thats true because it wasn't explicitly written in what was included in the canon though written in many other places long before the decision of what was to be included in the cannon.

It was and is practiced as tradition from the beginning and historical and archaeological evidence supports that fact.

There is much left to mystery as to how the angels and saints can hear us yet we believe it is so.

Yes, and we have to remember that the Scriptures as we now know them were not available for a LONG time. They just didn't exist in a way that most people would have had access to them. People listened to and trusted the church fathers and the teaching was passed to the local bishops, etc.

I suggest that if people here want to debate Catholic teaching, first study what and why we believe as we do. It's like you're making arguments without even having all the information that is pertinent to what's being discussed here.

 

[JoabAnias]

No the cannaon of scripture is the result of God using sinfull man as a vessel ,God could have written it miraculously in stone like the ten comandments or or adapted it as a musical for the stage if He wanted. The point is God would have created the cannon with or without tradition.

Yet He chose to use tradition.

yep. the pharisees had tradition ask yourself how did they do with that? this doesnt mean man is never inspired or moved upon by God the scripture makes it clear there is even the specific gift of prophecy. but just like the Game of telephone mans word gets corrupted as were God keep scripture by His divine power.

The Pharisees did fine, yet some were stuck in the law while others converted. We have Jesus freeing us from being stuck.

that's wrong as I explained in a previous post man can receive divine instruction but still foul it up man has freewill. paper and ink have no freewill.

So man couldn't foul up the putting of Holy Sacred Scripture to papyrus as much as the tradition?

yes praise God He had them write it down becouse He knew we'd screw it up like so many times in the past.

This is why I ignore no scripture in its literal sense first. Jesus made many commands of us and instituted new ordinances. He doesn't abrogate all law but fulfills them with Himself.

the bottom line is the bible shows us the dead in Christ are eternally being taken from one point of being stoked to another and they have their whole being focused on the Lord as we should . the scripture gives no evidence that they can or do watch us ,in fact scripture shows us that its probably demonic if we are communicating with the dead remember satan and his demons can transform themselves into the likeness of angels of light

Adversely the Scripture tells us that none who die are actually dead if they are in Christ but alive in Him so not dead at all. Otherwise everyone in heaven would be dead but they are not. Only the lost soul that perishes in the fires of hell are consumed. Those who run the race to the end and fall asleep (physical death) in the Lord live forever. This is our hope of eternal life. That cannot be removed by death of the flesh. The saints are with Jesus now, not in some form of limbo until the resurrection.

Mk 12:26-27 "As for the dead being raised, have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled."

Rom 6:3-4 Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.

Mat 27:52 And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.

Joh 11:11 He said these things. And after this, He said to them, Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going that I may awaken him.

1Co 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead; He became the firstfruit of those having fallen asleep.
1Co 15:21 For since death is through man, also through a Man is a resurrection of the dead;
1Co 15:22 for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I speak a mystery to you: we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed.

1Th 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who sleep, that you not grieve, as the rest also, not having hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
1Th 4:15 For we say this to you in the Word of the Lord, that we the living who remain to the coming of the Lord will not at all go before those who have fallen asleep.


with love in Christ.

 

[lionroar0]

They sure did and Jesus was not too happy with them. All we need to be fully equipped is the written scriptures. He has made His word sure. Oral tradtion as you say is to be passed down from mouth to mouth to ear to ear and Paul didn't even suggest this. The oral tradtion he was speaking about was to come from His own mouth. Paul is no longer with us so therefore we do not have his oral all we have is his written letters. Scripture.Tradtions are of man. Scripture is of God.

St Paul was pretty explicit about oral tradition.

This is from the amplified version.
2 Thessalonians 2


15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions and instructions which you were taught by us, whether by our word of mouth or by letter.It wasn't just his word of mouth but our word of mouth wich Christians were to have kept.

We also see in the letters of St. Timothy that he had been taught by St. Paul and was charged with teaching others and choosing others to teach.
1 Timothy 6


13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 which He will bring about at the proper time--He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
17 Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.
18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
19 storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.
20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"--
21 which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith Grace be with you.

So it's not St. Paul's oral tradition but what the apostles taught passed down to others and they taught others and then they taught others. This is Oral Tradition.


Peace

 

[winsome]

St Paul was pretty explicit about oral tradition.

This is from the amplified version.
2 Thessalonians 2


15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions and instructions which you were taught by us, whether by our word of mouth or by letter.It wasn't just his word of mouth but our word of mouth wich Christians were to have kept.

We also see in the letters of St. Timothy that he had been taught by St. Paul and was charged with teaching others and choosing others to teach.
1 Timothy 6


13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 which He will bring about at the proper time--He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
17 Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.
18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
19 storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.
20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"--
21 which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith Grace be with you.

So it's not St. Paul's oral tradition but what the apostles taught passed down to others and they taught others and then they taught others. This is Oral Tradition.


Peace

St. Paul was even more explicit about passing on oral tradition in 2 Timothy

Hold to the standard of sound teaching that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. (2Tim 1:13)

Paul has given Timothy sound teaching.

“Guard the good treasure entrusted to you, with the help of the Holy Spirit living in us.” (2Tim 1:14)

Timothy is to be a guardian of the truth that has been entrusted to him. He is to do this with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Then Paul instructs Timothy to pass this precious treasure of teaching on to others.

“You then, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus; and what you have heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will be able to teach others as well.” (2Tim 2:1-2)

So Timothy in his turn is to entrust what he has been given to faithful people. Not just preaching to others but to pass on in trust this teaching to others he can be sure will guard it in their turn.

Then they will be able to teach others as well.

So we have four generations – Paul – Timothy – those to whom Timothy entrusts the teaching – those who they pass it on to in turn.

 

[MamaZ]

St Paul was pretty explicit about oral tradition.

This is from the amplified version.
2 Thessalonians 2


15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions and instructions which you were taught by us, whether by our word of mouth or by letter.It wasn't just his word of mouth but our word of mouth wich Christians were to have kept.

We also see in the letters of St. Timothy that he had been taught by St. Paul and was charged with teaching others and choosing others to teach.
1 Timothy 6


13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 which He will bring about at the proper time--He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
17 Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy.
18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,
19 storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.
20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"--
21 which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith Grace be with you.

So it's not St. Paul's oral tradition but what the apostles taught passed down to others and they taught others and then they taught others. This is Oral Tradition.


Peace

Taken out of context and twisted. For if you notice that He was speaking to those who He had spoke to or written to. For when He could not make it there to preach then He wrote. Paul is not with us any more.. We cannot keep his oral for He has never spoken to the existing churches here. This hand me down oral is a twist of the scripture of what Paul was saying.. So men could add and add and add to the truth of scripture and call it oral tradtion. Then justify themselves by doing this by taking a scripture out of context to try and back up thier falsity.. But to the ones with Spiritual eyes and ears to hear we can discern that what they claim as oral really comes from ROME.

 

[winsome]

Taken out of context and twisted. For if you notice that He was speaking to those who He had spoke to or written to. For when He could not make it there to preach then He wrote. Paul is not with us any more.. We cannot keep his oral for He has never spoken to the existing churches here. This hand me down oral is a twist of the scripture of what Paul was saying.. So men could add and add and add to the truth of scripture and call it oral tradtion. Then justify themselves by doing this by taking a scripture out of context to try and back up thier falsity.. But to the ones with Spiritual eyes and ears to hear we can discern that what they claim as oral really comes from ROME.

Paul has given Timothy sound teaching.

“Guard the good treasure entrusted to you, with the help of the Holy Spirit living in us.” (2Tim 1:14)

Timothy is to be a guardian of the truth that has been entrusted to him. He is to do this with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Then Paul instructs Timothy to pass this precious treasure of teaching on to others.

“You then, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus; and what you have heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will be able to teach others as well.” (2Tim 2:1-2)

So Timothy in his turn is to entrust what he has been given to faithful people. Not just preaching to others but to pass on in trust this teaching to others he can be sure will guard it in their turn.

Then they will be able to teach others as well.

So we have four generations – Paul – Timothy – those to whom Timothy entrusts the teaching – those who they pass it on to in turn.

Nothing taken out of context or twisted. It couldn't be clearer. Timothy, who has been taught by Paul, is to pass on that teaching to others, who will in their turn pass it on to others. Oral Tradition clear and simple.

 

[MamaZ]

Yup and this my fried is where the rubber meets the road..And what was taught is now written for all to see and hear and abide by. For God has not left us orphans. The tradtions of the saints and Mary and all that is practiced did not come from Paul or Timothy.. They came from Rome. This is why those who have spiritual eyes and ears can see and discern and test what is practiced and believed upon by taking it to scripture to see if indeed this is from the Spirit of God. This oral stuff you have been trying to prove to be truth is noting by lies at the heart and being wrapped up in some scripture mixed with unsound doctrine. Therefore these myths and folks tales have nothing to do with the Living and Risen Jesus Christ but of Rome and thier many many gods and practices.

 

[MamaZ]

Mary a natural woman can in no way be the mother of a spiritual church.. She was flesh and blood and born in sin just like the rest of the all in scripture. Jesus is the ONLY one that was not born in Sin therefore able to be our sacrafical lamb. Mary to be His earthly Mother only.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Ah, but MamaZ, you apparently have not heard of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Non-Catholics jump to the assumption that it means that Jesus Christ was conceived immaculately, without sin. However, that is not the case at all. The doctrine, which was declared infallible dogma by the Pope in the twentieth century, states that it was Mary who was conceived without original sin and, as a result, was able to conceive Jesus without sin, too. Thus, the mother of God is sinless, just like God, her Son.

 

[winsome]

Yup and this my fried is where the rubber meets the road..And what was taught is now written for all to see and hear and abide by. For God has not left us orphans. The tradtions of the saints and Mary and all that is practiced did not come from Paul or Timothy.. They came from Rome. This is why those who have spiritual eyes and ears can see and discern and test what is practiced and believed upon by taking it to scripture to see if indeed this is from the Spirit of God. This oral stuff you have been trying to prove to be truth is noting by lies at the heart and being wrapped up in some scripture mixed with unsound doctrine. Therefore these myths and folks tales have nothing to do with the Living and Risen Jesus Christ but of Rome and thier many many gods and practices.

Well it's good to know that you acknowledge that Oral Tradition was taught by Paul to Timothy, by Timothy to those he taught, by those he taught to those that they in their turn taught etc. etc.

Now show me from scripture, since that is all you believe in, where it says that everything that Paul taught Timothy etc. was written down, and moreover was written down in what centuries later was discerned by the Church to be scripture.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Silly Winsome, you should know that if everything that was done by Jesus Christ was written down, the world could not contain all the books which were written (John 21:25). God, in His providence, has given us the canon of scripture, all of which is God-breathed (inspired) and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness (II Timothy 3:16). Although much more was written and much is acclaimed by non-Christians as of equal status to the Bible, none of it is accepted as the Word of God, including the multitude of supposed oral traditions of the Apostles. Once you get into the area of apocryphal literature you have passed the bounds of orthodoxy and the alleged sayings which were never even written down is even farther beyond those bounds.

 

[MamaZ]

Ah, but MamaZ, you apparently have not heard of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Non-Catholics jump to the assumption that it means that Jesus Christ was conceived immaculately, without sin. However, that is not the case at all. The doctrine, which was declared infallible dogma by the Pope in the twentieth century, states that it was Mary who was conceived without original sin and, as a result, was able to conceive Jesus without sin, too. Thus, the mother of God is sinless, just like God, her Son.

Well that even makes it much more a hoot.

 

[MamaZ]

we are not to exceed what is written. Not all of what Jesus preached or taught is written but all we need is..

 

[winsome]

Silly Winsome, you should know that if everything that was done by Jesus Christ was written down, the world could not contain all the books which were written (John 21:25).

Silly me

God, in His providence, has given us the canon of scripture, all of which is God-breathed (inspired) and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness (II Timothy 3:16).

God though his Church

Although much more was written and much is acclaimed by non-Christians as of equal status to the Bible, none of it is accepted as the Word of God,

Where do non-Christians come into this?

including the multitude of supposed oral traditions of the Apostles. Once you get into the area of apocryphal literature you have passed the bounds of orthodoxy and the alleged sayings which were never even written down is even farther beyond those bounds.

It's a big jump to claim that everything that is not in the canon of scripture is apocryphal and therefore of no value.

The early Church guarded the sacred mysteries very carefully – the liturgical rites for example were not written down but passed on orally. There is some primitive detail of the early Mass (for example) in the Didache (1st century), but the first person to give us much detail was Justin Martyr who set it down for the Emperor Antoninus Pius in about 155 AD.

 

[winsome]

we are not to exceed what is written.

Who says?

Scripture?

You?

 

[GBTWC]

Yet He chose to use tradition.

not to sound redundent but I think a good case can be made that tradition has failed in many ways and can be questioned hence this debate. I fully support tradition when its foundation is scripture ,but the fact is man tries to inject tradition into scripture rather than admitting that that man frequently screws up Gods plan

The Pharisees did fine, yet some were stuck in the law while others converted. We have Jesus freeing us from being stuck.

so the fact that the written and Oral tradition of the pharisees was criticized even brought harsh rebuke from The very Messiah they were waiting for doesnt tell you there tradition might not have been Gods will? Ya they were converted. from what? there man made law a.k.a. tradition

So man couldn't foul up the putting of Holy Sacred Scripture to papyrus as much as the tradition?

yes he could and did that's why God divinely kept out many books that man tried to add and tradition is still trying to add.

This is why I ignore no scripture in its literal sense first. Jesus made many commands of us and instituted new ordinances. He doesn't abrogate all law but fulfills them with Himself.

Adversely the Scripture tells us that none who die are actually dead if they are in Christ but alive in Him so not dead at all. Otherwise everyone in heaven would be dead but they are not. Only the lost soul that perishes in the fires of hell are consumed. Those who run the race to the end and fall asleep (physical death) in the Lord live forever. This is our hope of eternal life. That cannot be removed by death of the flesh. The saints are with Jesus now, not in some form of limbo until the resurrection.

Mk 12:26-27 "As for the dead being raised, have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled."

Rom 6:3-4 Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.

Mat 27:52 And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.

Joh 11:11 He said these things. And after this, He said to them, Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going that I may awaken him.

1Co 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead; He became the firstfruit of those having fallen asleep.
1Co 15:21 For since death is through man, also through a Man is a resurrection of the dead;
1Co 15:22 for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I speak a mystery to you: we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed.

1Th 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who sleep, that you not grieve, as the rest also, not having hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
1Th 4:15 For we say this to you in the Word of the Lord, that we the living who remain to the coming of the Lord will not at all go before those who have fallen asleep.

I agree Im sure you realize that when I say "dead in Christ" Im speaking of those who've died a physical death But not spiritual

With Love in Christ

 

[MamaZ]

1Co 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.