Where Mary's seemingly deistic identity stems from...

[Amylisa]

Chist was revealed throughout the entire O.T. as he told His disciples it was writen about Him

God is the uncreated Light from everlasting to everlasting
Mary being the mother of God is a poor term the bible says He came in the likness of human Flesh again mary was only a vessel used by God that is why she is blessed among women He didnt become God He is the Iam He was and is and is to come



with Love in Christ

Gospel of John states in chapter one,
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
The Word was with God...and the Word WAS God.

Yes, Jesus as The Christ has ALWAYS existed. But His humanity had a definite beginning point.

He was begotten by God the Father, which He chose to do through Mary.

She was foreshadowed in the Old Testament, she wasn't just an "addendum' to God's plan.

That's part of why the Catholic Church honors her as we do.

 

[GBTWC]

Here's some things Martin Luther had to say regarding Mary~

It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527).
She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522).


Luther gives the Blessed Virgin the exalted position of "Spiritual Mother" for Christians:

It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother .. (Sermon, Christmas, 1522)
Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).
​

Luther also fought demons with his farts. so we know whatever Martin Luther did that goes against scripture is smelly nonsense but the 95 theses was much needed glory to God

 

[Amylisa]

Well, that's an interesting way to look at it.
If he was so crazy then, why did anyone listen to him about anything?

Also, there is scriptural basis for honoring Mary. That is what I've been studying this year, actually.

 

[GBTWC]

Gospel of John states in chapter one,
The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
The Word was with God...and the Word WAS God.

Yes, Jesus as The Christ has ALWAYS existed. But His humanity had a definite beginning point.

He was begotten by God the Father, which He chose to do through Mary.

She was foreshadowed in the Old Testament, she wasn't just an "addendum' to God's plan.

That's part of why the Catholic Church honors her as we do.

Like joabanias pointed out Christ taking on the likeness of sinfull man is a mystery and I believe we should respect her part in Gods plan but worship or even pray to thats dancin on the edge of a steep cliff and I dont like Hieghts

with love in Christ

 

[GBTWC]

Well, that's an interesting way to look at it.
If he was so crazy then, why did anyone listen to him about anything?

God uses the foolish things to confound the wise He used balaam's donkey and He uses me why they listened to some and not all I can only speculate that its either divine intervention or scriptural wisdom on the part of the people or both

Also, there is scriptural basis for honoring Mary. That is what I've been studying this year, actually.

I agree if you mean honoring her in the same way I would anyone in the body of Christ but if you mean elevating her above any other saint Id be interested in seeing the scripture

 

[GBTWC]

r u a lost fan?

 

[Trento]

Mary being the mother of God is a poor term the bible says He came in the likness of human Flesh again mary was only a vessel used by God that is why she is blessed among women He didnt become God He is the Iam He was and is and is to come
God is uncreated adding a term that that comes dangerously close to causing people to give Glory to the creation rather than the creator is a risk I will not take in order to defend one doctrine this has created another false doctrine.
mary was simply a vessel that God used to become flesh. When God uses us or any of His creation including mary all glory goes to God anything else is satanic.




with Love in Christ

You may want to Sit trough a Catholic litergy to see who we give glory to.

Veneration of the Saints was practiced by all the early Church Fathers the same Fathers who faught against these heresies-

Sabellianism: Sabellianism is named for its founder Sabellius (fl. 2nd century). It is sometimes referred to as modalistic monarchianism. The father, son, and holy ghost are three modes, roles, or faces of a single person, God. This, of course, implies that Jesus Christ was purely divine, without humanness, and therefore could not truly have suffered or died.

Docetism: The name comes from the Greek word dokesis, meaning "to seem." Along the same lines as Sabellianism, Docetism says that Christ was not a real human being and did not have a real human body. He only seemed to be human to us. In a nutshell...

Christ only (no Jesus)
​

Monophysitism: Monophysite comes from the Greek words for "one body." This heresy says that Jesus Christ was a joining of the eternal Logos with the human person Jesus, which occured at incarnation. He therefore is two separate natures joined in one body. Monophysitism is very much alive in several present-day Egyptian and Middle Eastern sects of Christianity.

Jesus
> Jesus Christ
Christ
​

Adoptionism: Adoptionism says that Jesus was a human being who was "adopted" by God at his conception, at which point he developed a divine nature. Later versions sometimes suggest that he was adopted later, such as when he was baptized by John the Baptist.

Jesus > Christ
​

Nestorianism: Supposedly, Nestorius, Patriarch of Antioch (fl. 410), believed that Jesus Christ had two natures -- man and God -- which remained separate throughout his period on earth. This is not really what Nestor said (although he did deny virgin birth) but the name stuck. You can still find a few Nestorian churches in Iran.

Jesus......
Christ......
​

Apollinarianism: Named for Apollinaris of Laodicea (fl. 350), this heresy says that Jesus Christ was not a real man, but not totally divine either. Apollinarians suggested that he had a human body and a human soul, but his mind was taken over by the eternal Logos.

Je(Christ)sus
​

Arianism: Arianism is named after Arius (c. 250 - c. 336), a priest in Alexandria. This is considered the most serious heresy. Jesus Christ was thought of as a special creation by God for man's salvation. Arianism was the form of Christianity that the Goths adhered to, and it was popular in all the areas they conquered, including Italy, Spain, and Africa.

Socianism: A version of Arianism called Socianism (from the Latin socius, meaning "companion), simply says that Jesus was an extraordinary man. This heresy still lives on in two very different forms, the Unitarians and the Jehova's Witnesses.

Jesus only (no Christ)

Donatism: Named for its leader, the theologian Donatus the Great (d. 355), Donatism included a group of extremist sects, mostly in North Africa, that emphasized asceticism. They valued martyrdom, found lapses of faith (even under torture or threat of death) inexcusable, and believed that the sacraments required a pure priest to be effective.

Pelagianism: Another group of sects, centered in Gaul, Britain, and Ireland, is associated with the Irish monk Pelagius (fl. 410). He believed that original sin was not transmitted from Adam and Eve to their children (and thereby to us). Baptism was not considered necessary, and people could be "saved" by their own efforts, that is, they did not necessarily require the grace of God. Many modern liberal Christians agee with Pelagius.

Gnosticism: , the Christian versions were, obviously, considered serious heresies. Gnosticism has never entirely disappeared, and can be seen in the traditions of Alchemy and Astrology, and even in modern times in the works of Carl Jung.

Manicheanism: Manicheanism is actually a separate religion which blends Christianity with Gnosticism, Mithraism, neo-Platonism, and even Buddhism. Again, it was considered a very serious heresy. It survived well into the Middle Ages, where it strongly influenced the Bogomils in the Balkans and the Cathars in southern France.

Now if these Fathers believed that Veneration of Saints did not come from the Apostles they woul have surly faught against the practice? Theologian and Basil the Great could fight for the full divinity of the Holy Spirit, then certainly they would have commented on the error of the intercession and invocation of the saints. It was practiced by the defenders and promoters of the Nicene Creed: the Fathers who had suffered, struggled, and died for the doctrine of the Trinity, the full divinity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and who described this relationship in language too rarified for me to fully comprehend to this day. These doctrines most Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox Christians still hold in common. The witness, therefore, of these Christian giants must be taken as more than simply “the doctrine of men.

It is obvious and logical for anyone studying the History of the early Church that these men accepted the Communion of Saints as Tradition from the Apostles.

Paul's letters clarify how the Apostolic Church under the influence of the Holy Spirit spoke of believers as "saints," whether living or dead. Paul asked the saints to pray for him and to imitate him. Faithful people in the Post-Apostolic Church in the Apostles Creed defined the confessional response to faith in their creed: "We believe in the communion of saints." Through Baptism we pass "from death to life; death no longer has dominion over us." Christians must believe that there is no real distinction between the believer in human life and after human life. Saints, living or dead, are indistinguishable before God. If we can pray for and with saints in this life, we can pray for and with those saints after human life. And as Paul asked saints to imitate him as he imitates Christ, the Church encourages Catholic Christians to imitate the holiness of the saints as they imitated the holiness of Christ and the Father. First among saints by the fullness of grace which was hers is the Mother of Jesus, Mary.

​

 

[GBTWC]

You may want to Sit trough a Catholic litergy to see who we give glory to.

Veneration of the Saints was practiced by all the early Church Fathers the same Fathers who faught against these heresies-

I have been to catoholic and Othodox services and they were both nice but there are many things that are too close to giving the glory to the created rather than the creator for me. also Im basing my comments on the OP and that is catholic doctrine so maybe you need to defend against the alter of mary in heaven cuz that b unscriptural
with love in Christ

 

[JoabAnias]

for example if we can pray directly to God Why would I pray to Mary ?

Its simple really, my definition of pray is not to worship. I love my whole family so why would I not want to talk to all of them? I reserve praise and worship for God alone. But when I am falsely afraid of my Fathers wrath I can beg my mom to intercede for me. By fault of my own, mediators can be immensely helpful in reconciling me to my Father.

 

[MamaZ]

We are never directed in scripture to pray to anyone other than the Father. This is where I base my teaching from. The Apostles and not men that came after them. This is why we have the scripture. To measure everything by.

 

[JoabAnias]

Many people are not aware of the New Life of the Christian who has been called out of this life. "The way" is not entirely explicitly contained in Holy Sacred Scripture but also defined in the actions of the first Christians up to the present.

Rom 6:3-4 Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.

Col 2:12 You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Mk 12:26-27 "As for the dead being raised, have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God told him, 'I am the God of Abraham, (the) God of Isaac, and (the) God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead but of the living. You are greatly misled."

Heb 6:12 ... so that you may not become sluggish, but imitators of those who, through faith and patience, are inheriting the promises.

Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us

1 Cor 13:12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

1 Cor 11:1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

Phil 3:17 Join with others in being imitators of me, brothers, and observe those who thus conduct themselves according to the model you have in us.

Earliest Christianity has always defined prayer as conversation, as in conversation with God. Conversation, as any other act of communication ( e.g., talking, conversation, yelling, etc.), requires a sign of the direction of the communication: one talks to someone, communicates with someone, prays to someone, converses with someone, yells at someone, etc. Hence, praying to God, a Saint, the Virgin Mary indicates simply the direction of prayer communication. It is more a matter of grammar and understanding communication than acknowledging the worship of the receiver.

Prayer to a saint from the catacombs;

Early Fathers say very much on this as well, couple of short examples;

Tertullian (211) Wrote that Christians offered prayer and the Eucharist for the deceased on the anniversaries of their death.

St. Augustine (354 - 430) Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church, which even now is the Kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ.

and a whole mine of other examples:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html#tradition-I

 

[bbbbbbb]

There is a significant difference between conversation and petition. When I converse with someone, such as yourself, I am exchanging thoughts. It is impossible to converse with a dead person because there can be no exchange of ideas. When I petition someone I am asking for something. There is no exchange of ideas there. Prayers to deceased people are petitions which are said to be directed to God, through the deceased person.

If I want something from my father, who would be more than happy to give it to me, I do not ask my good friend, Joe, to go to my father and ask him for me. My father is not particularly inclined to grant Joe's petitions. In the same way, I have complete boldness of access to God through Jesus Christ, so that it is unnecessary, if not counterproductive, to make my prayers through another deceased Christian (or even a living Christian, for that matter).

 

[Amylisa]

r u a lost fan?

Yes, though I've seen so little of it I hardly know what is going on!

Did you know that the guy who plays Desmond (Henry Ian Cusick) portrays Jesus in The Gospel of John ?
http://www.gospelofjohnthefilm.com/

He is awesome in that. He's why I started trying to watch Lost with some regularity. I really need to rent the other seasons so I can catch up. It's hard for me to get time to watch TV much lately. Or if I do get time, someone else is already using the tv set!

 

[Kristos]

There is a significant difference between conversation and petition. When I converse with someone, such as yourself, I am exchanging thoughts. It is impossible to converse with a dead person because there can be no exchange of ideas. When I petition someone I am asking for something. There is no exchange of ideas there. Prayers to deceased people are petitions which are said to be directed to God, through the deceased person.

If I want something from my father, who would be more than happy to give it to me, I do not ask my good friend, Joe, to go to my father and ask him for me. My father is not particularly inclined to grant Joe's petitions. In the same way, I have complete boldness of access to God through Jesus Christ, so that it is unnecessary, if not counterproductive, to make my prayers through another deceased Christian (or even a living Christian, for that matter).

Why go to Joe? Why not your mother?

 

[Amylisa]

Here's a photo from The Gospel of John. I love love love this movie. It's taken directly from the scriptures. Awesome!

Actually, this movie is one of the things God used to draw me to the Catholic faith. I kept watching the part of John ch.6 where Jesus says, "I am the bread of life!" It's so beautiful....i just couldn't stop thinking about those words. I had no idea how God would change my life with this scripture.

 

[JoabAnias]

There is a significant difference between conversation and petition. When I converse with someone, such as yourself, I am exchanging thoughts. It is impossible to converse with a dead person because there can be no exchange of ideas. When I petition someone I am asking for something. There is no exchange of ideas there. Prayers to deceased people are petitions which are said to be directed to God, through the deceased person.

If I want something from my father, who would be more than happy to give it to me, I do not ask my good friend, Joe, to go to my father and ask him for me. My father is not particularly inclined to grant Joe's petitions. In the same way, I have complete boldness of access to God through Jesus Christ, so that it is unnecessary, if not counterproductive, to make my prayers through another deceased Christian (or even a living Christian, for that matter).

When you pray to our Father do you hear Him answer you?

Is Jesus deceased?

Why cannot I go directly to my Father. Jesus taught that I could and He also taught that all in Him, deceased or not, are a part of Him.

 

[GregoryTurner]

Saints equal to Father and Jesus? Come on....

 

[JoabAnias]

Is that what you think?

1 Cor 13:12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Don't see anything about equality in there.

Do see allot of confusion in such a statement as claiming equality though.

Sounds like deism to me which is different than theosis.

 

[MamaZ]

My mother is with the Lord so I cannot go to her. I can though go to my Father and yes He does commune back with me. It is a relationship where He speaks I listen I speak He answers..

 

[JoabAnias]

My mother is with the Lord so I cannot go to her. I can though go to my Father and yes He does commune back with me. It is a relationship where He speaks I listen I speak He answers..

You may find this interesting:

How Do Saints Hear Us?

http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/saints.htm