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Where is your evidence creationists?

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by revo74, Dec 8, 2011.

  1. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    I'm just answering a question, that's all.
     
  2. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    You're welcome.
     
  3. CabVet

    CabVet Question everything

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    Hey, where is that other thread that says humans are so perfect that they are evidence for a designer again? We are so perfect that God had to flood the entire earth and exterminate us because of our wickedness.
     
  4. Jazer

    Jazer Guest

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    Maybe they are to big to fit in a little fox hole.
     
  5. Jazer

    Jazer Guest

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    They do not have to anything. You just mention two popular theorys. No one questions that God uses DNA. We just question the theory of random mutation. Without random mutation then Darwins theory falls apart.
     
  6. OllieFranz

    OllieFranz Senior Member

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    Sorry, but no. Care to try again?

    Random mutation is an observed fact. All mutation is random. Chemical contamination or radiation knocks a piece out of the DNA, or two pieces of DNA get switched, and there is no way to predict the result. Most of the time, it happens within a soma (body) cell, and there is either no appreciable effect (other than perhaps the cell dying) or the cell becomes cancerous. Either way, the mutation does not affect any other individual organism. When it happens in a germ cell (egg or sperm), or in a zygote (fertilized egg), then the offspring individual may have a new (mutated) trait. The mutation may be positive, negative, or neutral. But mutation is not evolution. Mutation happens to individual organisms. An individual organism does not evolve (although positive, neutral and weakly negative traits may be passed on to later generations).

    Evolution happens to entire populations, not to individual organisms. The mechanism for evolution is natural selection, and selection is the opposite of a random event. The traits selected for are those best suited for the specific environment.
     
  7. CabVet

    CabVet Question everything

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    You should go tell people with genetic diseases caused by random mutation that there is no mutation, I would like to see how they react. There are about 4,000 human diseases caused by mutation, errors in DNA copy, or interactions between mutations and the environment, including many types of cancer, some types of hemophilia, etc.
     
  8. revo74

    revo74 Newbie

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    1. I specifically wrote "almost all" because I was under the impression Noah wasn't wicked and that is why he chose him.

    1 & 2. You cannot blame free will for the fact that all men or almost all men turned out wicked. At the very least god shares the blame if he is not entirely responsible himself, which I believe is the case. There are many if not an infinite amount of ways that god could have created a natural world where free will exists. He decided to choose a world where he knew in advance (because he is omniscient) the people would all or almost all turn out wicked. These human emotions of grieving and repenting were brought onto him by his own hand. This is a problem that you cannot account for.

    What is god's purpose for man? From my understanding it is that man inherits the kingdom of god. God wants the maximum number of men through their own free will to come to know and love god. Well he obviously did a very poor job his first time at it, so much so that he had to erase the drawing board and start over. This does not sound like the work an agent with infinite powers.

    If god is the creator and he is also omniscient then he knew what the result of his actions would be. He knew that all of man or most of man would turn out wicked and that it would bring himself grief. He knew that he would hit the reboot button and start all over. I am sorry sir, but this is a major problem that you need to address.

    If god was not omniscient then this problem would go away. Well...perhaps only partially because he is would be omnipotent. It would still be a mistake for an omnipotent all wise being to get things so wrong. God is said to be perfect. Perfect beings don't make mistakes like these, perfect beings don't have mortal emotions (which you had no response to).

    The attributes of omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence cause many, many logical problems for god. As does the notion of perfection.

    I would also like to mention that we have a very good understanding about the nature of people through many years of observation and science. There are some people who are inherently kind for example. This knowledge conflicts with the notion that every single or at the very least well over 99% of them turned out to be wicked.

    3. Your answer here places god in a real bad light. What you're basically saying is, and what the entire floor story conveys is that god desperately wants free willed creatures to turn to him and the actions he takes to accomplish this fails miserably.

    Incompetence, desperation, repentance and grievance are not attributes of an all-powerful god.

    4. A definition of deliberate is: To think carefully and often slowly, as about a choice to be made.

    God certainly made choices when he designed the Universe did he not?
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2011
  9. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    Noah was a sinner like you and I are.

    God said why He picked him:

    Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

    And for the record, God created Adam & Eve perfect; His obligation, if there was one, ended after He told Adam not to eat of the forbidden fruit.
     
  10. CabVet

    CabVet Question everything

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    Why did he have to tell a perfect creation not to eat a forbidden fruit? Why did he create a forbidden fruit?
     
  11. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    Because Adam & Eve were not omniscient; and even if they were, they still chose to eat it.
    It was forbidden to Adam & Eve; that tree, in my opinion, was there for the others, not them.
     
  12. CabVet

    CabVet Question everything

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    In other words, Adam & Eve were not perfect. Now what are those "others" that you mention? Animals? Other people?
     
  13. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    You have a strange sense of "perfect" then?
    Angels.
     
  14. CabVet

    CabVet Question everything

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    Perfect: being entirely without fault or defect, flawless.

    You call that strange?
     
  15. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    I didn't see the word "omniscient" in your definition.
     
  16. CabVet

    CabVet Question everything

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    Oh, so disobeying a direct order is not a fault then?
     
  17. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    Disobeying a direct order ≠ not being created perfect.

    They were perfect, until they disobeyed.

    In other words, they were perfect, until they weren't.

    And before you reply, keep in mind: God's obligation ended after His command.

    The Fall is assumed by some to have occurred one year after the creation event; this means Adam & Eve were perfect for one year.

    Speaking of Lucifer, the Bible says:

    Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
     
  18. selfinflikted

    selfinflikted Under Deck

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    But even possessing the ability to become 'not perfect' means that they weren't perfect to begin with. Or something. I think.
     
  19. 1000Flames

    1000Flames Gloria Perpetua

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    I like this kind of thinking quite a bit. Kudos to this post! :thumbsup:
     
  20. Davian

    Davian fallible

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    To about the same effect as you just answered mine. ^_^
     
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