Where is this scripture? And I don't mean from NT.

[Heber Book List]

​

If you read twenty Bible translations of verses 38 and 39 i don't see any significant disagreement. However, (and i do mean HOWEVER), it's as much (or more) up to the interpretation of the reader based on their understanding of the relationship between the Tanakh (e.g. Ezekiel 47:1-12) and the Ketuvei HaShalichim (John 7:37-39). Thus, some Messianics see Yeshua's words in verse 38 (during Shavuot~verse 37) as dovetailing with the Tanakh (e.g. Ezekiel 47:1-12: & Zechariah 14:8); while still questioning the translator's wording in both 38 and 39 as if the translator has a corrupted source or every translator is sorely mistaken.

It should be remembered in verse 39 that John's words are a reflection back several years later after the Disciples and other Jewish Believers had received the infilling baptism of His Spirit on Shavuot as recorded in Acts chapter 2 of the Ketuvei HaShalichim. Thus, it's not an impossibility that the Apostles and other 1st Century Jewish Followers would consider themselves Christians in the best sense of the word. However, some Messianic Jews perceive verse 39 of John's commentary as not referenced/implied in the Tanakh and therefore suspect. Thus the bracketed parentheses enclosing Lulav's red quote of verse 39.

​

Perhaps, Young's Literal Translation is a better reading of Yeshua's words as verse 38 reads "as the Writing said" referring to the Tanakh. However, where in the Tanakh is scripture that implies that "he who is believing in me" will experience "Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water". Thus both verses are apparently perplexing to those within the Messianic Judaism movement that question the translation trustworthiness of the Ketuvei HaShalichim.

38 he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, 'Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;'
39 and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
​

Perhaps, Heber and Lulav interpret "Rivers out of his belly" to only apply to the Throne Room of Israel's Messiah when He reigns as LORD of lords and KING of kings on earth and NOT to born again [Spirit-filled] Believers [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Me]. Such an interpretation of verse 38 then presents a problem as verse 39 implies that "Rivers out of his belly" refers to born again [Spirit-filled] Believers.

When reading several different translations including the YLT of verse 38 none of them (NKJV, CJB, JUL, etc, etc) capitalize 'His' in "Rivers out of his belly" implying 'his' refers to born again Spirit-filled Believers. Verse 39 of the NIV reads, "rivers of living water will flow from within them", and verse 39 of the TLB reads, "rivers of living water shall flow from the inmost being of anyone who believes in me". The TPT takes even a more passionate stance ...

John 7:38-39 The Passion Translation (TPT)
38 Believe in me so that rivers of living water will burst out from within you, flowing from your innermost being, just like the Scripture says!”
39 Jesus was prophesying about the Holy Spirit that believers were being prepared to receive. But the Holy Spirit had not yet been poured out upon them, because Jesus had not yet been unveiled in his full splendor.​

Footnotes:

1. John 7:38 The root word used here is the same as the River Jordan, which means “flowing” (down).
2. John 7:38 Or “rivers of living water will flow from his throne within.” See Isa. 44:3; 55:1; 58:11; Ezek. 47:1; Rev. 22:1. A drink becomes a river!
3. John 7:39 As translated from the Aramaic.
4. John 7:39 This splendor included the splendor of the cross, the splendor of his resurrection, and the glory of his ascension into heaven. Just as water poured out of the rock that was struck by Moses, so from the wounded side of Jesus living water poured out to heal, save, and bring life to everyone who believes. The Holy Spirit poured out of Christ and into the church at Pentecost.

The Church did not exist at Pentecost when the Spirit was given - the hearers were Jews; this birth of the Church stuff at Pentecost is, again, contrary to what Scripture says, in favour of what a Church Council decides. The nascent church came into its own after Acts 15, prior to that Jews and Christians began to worship together as one congregation, hence the Council of Jerusalem and the letter sent out to Gentiles.

It is unfortunate that, in providing 'evidence' in favour of changing one part of scripture, the same 'evidence' shows another part of scripture, also altered by man.

PS In regard to your opening comment I would not expect you to be able to point out the 'errors' in your understanding of the Bible regarding Easter, ignoring the fact of which day Yeshua was hanged on the cross. None of them, as with vs 39 in this thread, have anything to do with a direct translation of language. The 'errors' exist because most versions of the Bible are based on the KJV and so 'errors' are just carried through the ages, as with vs 39 to a certain extent; no one questions how the writer of the additional verse (39) knew what Yeshua meant at the time he spoke vs 38 - it was obviously written back into the text to force a connection to what took place after Yeshua died.

 

[Lulav]

The Holy Spirit poured out of Christ and into the church at Pentecost.

It should be remembered in verse 39 that John's words are a reflection back several years later after the Disciples and other Jewish Believers had received the infilling baptism of His Spirit on Shavuot as recorded in Acts chapter 2 of the Ketuvei HaShalichim.

Yet what's written in Acts sounds like it happened to all of them on Shavuot, but In the gospel of John there is this

Post resurrection:

…21 Again Jesus said to them, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, so also I am sending you.”
22 When He had said this, He breathed on them and said,

“Receive the Holy Spirit.

23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.”…

 

[Heber Book List]

Yet what's written in Acts sounds like it happened to all of them on Shavuot, but In the gospel of John there is this

Post resurrection:

…21 Again Jesus said to them, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent Me, so also I am sending you.”
22 When He had said this, He breathed on them and said,

“Receive the Holy Spirit.

23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.”…

It was only those in the upper room that received the HS in Acts 2 that led to the great events. The crowd was told to repent and be immersed, and about 3000 did so. We also know that some were immersed and did not know about the HS, and so were immersed again later. Peter's brush with Gentiles - a proselyte Roman officer and his family and friends - were also immersed, as was the Eunuch. Gentiles joined Jews in worship and the Judaisers, in Acts 15, demanded they must be circumcised, but the letter of the Council of Jerusalem was willing to accept them with a few caveats. Thereafter, the Jews and Christians began to part company.

In John's writings, it is Yeshua and his close disciples only in the room when he breaths on them and they receive the HS from him. I suspect that might be the same incident as recorded in Luke 1 and in Acts 1:3-6 to enable them to prepare for what was to come; their Ordination or Commissioning. Acts 2 is when the fullness of the HS is given them (possibly 120 of them, some say) and they hid away from the people no more but, being enabled and empowered, by the HS, Peter spoke out, and their ministries began.

 

[Lulav]

It was only those in the upper room that received the HS in Acts 2 that led to the great events. The crowd was told to repent and be immersed, and about 3000 did so. We also know that some were immersed and did not know about the HS, and so were immersed again later. Peter's brush with Gentiles - a proselyte Roman officer and his family and friends - were also immersed, as was the Eunuch. Gentiles joined Jews in worship and the Judaisers, in Acts 15, demanded they must be circumcised, but the letter of the Council of Jerusalem was willing to accept them with a few caveats. Thereafter, the Jews and Christians began to part company.

In John's writings, it is Yeshua and his close disciples only in the room when he breaths on them and they receive the HS from him. I suspect that might be the same incident as recorded in Luke 1 and in Acts 1:3-6 to enable them to prepare for what was to come; their Ordination or Commissioning. Acts 2 is when the fullness of the HS is given them (possibly 120 of them, some say) and they hid away from the people no more but, being enabled and empowered, by the HS, Peter spoke out, and their ministries began.

Which part of that did you think I was unaware?

 

[AbbaLove]

The Church did not exist at Pentecost when the Spirit was given - the hearers were Jews; this birth of the Church stuff at Pentecost is, again, contrary to what Scripture says, in favour of what a Church Council decides. The nascent church came into its own after Acts 15, prior to that Jews and Christians began to worship together as one congregation, hence the Council of Jerusalem and the letter sent out to Gentiles.

My previous reference to 'church' (not capitalized) refers to the 1st Century body of Believers that gathered in their homes to worship together and NOT what was to later become an impressive looking physical 'Church' edifice or Church Council. The Chinese underground 'church' refers to a body of Believers and NOT a physical building.

Are you aware that CF considers the Messianic Judaism movement to be a form of Christianity? It is not unusual for Messianic Jews in Israel to also be referred to as Christians by secular and orthodox Jews.

"Thus, it's not an impossibility that the Apostles and other 1st Century Jewish
Followers would consider themselves Christians in the best sense of the word."
​

Acts 1:14-15 is an example of a Jewish 'church' gathering not held in a synagogue ...

14 With one accord they all continued in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers. 15 In those days Peter stood up among the brothers (a gathering of about a hundred and twenty)

Acts 12:12 is another example of the early 'church' where Jewish men and women had gathered together to pray for Peter ...

So, when he had considered this, he came to the house of Mary, the mother of John whose surname was Mark, where many were gathered together praying.

You've previously replied to Vis that we all agree on verse 38, that Yeshua means what He says as all translations imply that the 'Rivers out of his belly" refers to Believers ...

38 he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, 'Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;'

Do you favor A over B as the correct interpretation of Yeshua's words and thus possibly the disconnect when verse 39 in translations seems to favor B ...

A. Yeshua's words in verse 38 will become effective among Jewish Believers when Israel's Messiah returns to reign as LORD of Lords and KING of Kings.
B. Yeshua's words in verse 38 refers to what occurred during Shavuot and onward among Jewish Believers as recorded in the book of Acts.​

 

[Heber Book List]

​

My previous reference to 'church' (not capitalized) refers to the 1st Century body of Believers that gathered in their homes to worship together and NOT what was to later become an impressive looking physical 'Church' edifice or Church Council. The Chinese underground 'church' refers to a body of Believers and NOT a physical building.

Are you aware that CF considers the Messianic Judaism movement to be a form of Christianity? It is not unusual for Messianic Jews in Israel to also be referred to as Christians by secular and orthodox Jews.

"Thus, it's not an impossibility that the Apostles and other 1st Century Jewish
Followers would consider themselves Christians in the best sense of the word."
​

Acts 1:14-15 is an example of a Jewish 'church' gathering not held in a synagogue ...

​

Acts 12:12 is another example of the early 'church' where Jewish men and women had gathered together to pray for Peter ...

​

You've previously replied to Vis that we all agree on verse 38, that Yeshua means what He says as all translations imply that the 'Rivers out of his belly" refers to Believers ...

​

Do you favor A over B as the correct interpretation of Yeshua's words and thus possibly the disconnect when verse 39 in translations seems to favor B ...

A. Yeshua's words in verse 38 will become effective among Jewish Believers when Israel's Messiah returns to reign as LORD of Lords and KING of Kings.
B. Yeshua's words in verse 38 refers to what occurred during Shavuot and onward among Jewish Believers as recorded in the book of Acts.​

MJ is a form of Judaism on CF, not Christianity.

 

[Heber Book List]

Which part of that did you think I was unaware?

Your post read as being uncertain - probably just how it was worded - I expected to see a question mark.

I meant no offence

 

[chunkofcoal]

So is verse 39 a Christian interpretation/commentary? (There are a couple of other questionable verses in the new testament.) Then He was talking to Jews who would have, should have, understood what He was talking about.

 

[Heber Book List]

So is verse 39 a Christian interpretation/commentary? (There are a couple of other questionable verses in the new testament.) Then He was talking to Jews who would have, should have, understood what He was talking about.

There would only have been Jews in the Temple service - this is part of the problem with vs 39. The Jews would have understood the metaphor for living water being Torah, but even the wording of vs 39 indicates that it is a write back into the account of Yeshua's comment, though many refuse to believe it. The Jews in the Temple would not have any idea what vs 39 was all about, as I have previously pointed out, and neither would his followers. It is an addition to scripture.

 

[chunkofcoal]

There would only have been Jews in the Temple service - this is part of the problem with vs 39. The Jews would have understood the metaphor for living water being Torah, but even the wording of vs 39 indicates that it is a write back into the account of Yeshua's comment, though many refuse to believe it. The Jews in the Temple would not have any idea what vs 39 was all about, as I have previously pointed out, and neither would his followers. It is an addition to scripture.

The idea that verse 39 is an addition, and that the living waters meant Torah, complicates many peoples theology. Its easy to understand why some might refuse to believe it.

 

[Heber Book List]

The idea that verse 39 is an addition, and that the living waters meant Torah, complicates many peoples theology. Its easy to understand why some might refuse to believe it.

I am sure that may be right but it doesn't change the facts. Thinkers will, I am sure, realise there was no such thing as the Christian Testament until Paul started to write his letters, long before the gospels were penned. Yeshua would know that, when he was speaking to Jews - his own people - up until he died, they would understand what he was saying from a Jewish perspective; vs 39 is outside that situation by several decades - around 5 of them. How many of us would remember exactly what we heard 50 years later, with great certified detail?

The Alpha course teaches that vs 39 is about the Spirit. I no longer run that course because of this and other errors in the material.

 

[Heber Book List]

​

My previous reference to 'church' (not capitalized) refers to the 1st Century body of Believers that gathered in their homes to worship together and NOT what was to later become an impressive looking physical 'Church' edifice or Church Council. The Chinese underground 'church' refers to a body of Believers and NOT a physical building.

Are you aware that CF considers the Messianic Judaism movement to be a form of Christianity? It is not unusual for Messianic Jews in Israel to also be referred to as Christians by secular and orthodox Jews.

"Thus, it's not an impossibility that the Apostles and other 1st Century Jewish
Followers would consider themselves Christians in the best sense of the word."
​

Acts 1:14-15 is an example of a Jewish 'church' gathering not held in a synagogue ...

​

Acts 12:12 is another example of the early 'church' where Jewish men and women had gathered together to pray for Peter ...

​

You've previously replied to Vis that we all agree on verse 38, that Yeshua means what He says as all translations imply that the 'Rivers out of his belly" refers to Believers ...

​

Do you favor A over B as the correct interpretation of Yeshua's words and thus possibly the disconnect when verse 39 in translations seems to favor B ...

A. Yeshua's words in verse 38 will become effective among Jewish Believers when Israel's Messiah returns to reign as LORD of Lords and KING of Kings.
B. Yeshua's words in verse 38 refers to what occurred during Shavuot and onward among Jewish Believers as recorded in the book of Acts.​

Let's take another start point to sort this out. Who wrote John's gospel and when?

 

[AbbaLove]

vs 39 is outside that situation by several decades - around 5 of them. How many of us would remember exactly what we heard 50 years later, with great certified detail?

You've previously replied to Vis that we all agree on verse 38, that Yeshua means what He says as translations(Christian interpretation?) implies that the "Rivers out of his belly" refers to Jewish Believers during and after Shavuot (book of Acts). However, Lulav's reply(s) seems to question both vs 38 and 39.

38 "he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, 'Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;' "​

You didn't answer the question, so assume you (and possibly Lulav) favor A., and thus Messianic Judaism and the disconnect when Christian interpretation of verse 39 may favor B ...

A. Yeshua's words in verse 38 will become effective among Jewish Believers when Israel's Messiah returns to reign as LORD of Lords and KING of Kings.
B. Yeshua's words in verse 38 refers to what occurred during Shavuot and onward among Jewish Believers as recorded in the book of Acts.

The Alpha course teaches that vs 39 is about the Spirit. I no longer run that course because of this and other errors in the material.

That would seem to imply that at one time you may have favored B. or both A. and B. On the other hand both Yeshua (vs 38) and John (vs 39) may in fact be referring to His Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) that was poured forth on those in the upper room (about 120) that witnessed to the crowds gathered to celebrate the Feast of Shavuot.

FWIW, Messianic members (including me) in this Messianic Judaism forum don't refer to the Jewish Feast of First Fruits (Hag HaMatzah, 3rd Day of Unleavened Bread, The Risen Lamb of Elohim) as 'Easter' as you've done on this thread. Easter is a Christian word for the Feast of First Fruits which occurs on April 3-4, 2018 ( TorahCalendar.com )

as we face Easter on the horizon.

 

[Heber Book List]

​

You've previously replied to Vis that we all agree on verse 38, that Yeshua means what He says as translations(Christian interpretation?) implies that the "Rivers out of his belly" refers to Jewish Believers during and after Shavuot (book of Acts). However, Lulav's reply(s) seems to question both vs 38 and 39.

38 "he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, 'Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;' "​

You didn't answer the question, so assume you (and possibly Lulav) favor A., and thus Messianic Judaism and the disconnect when Christian interpretation of verse 39 may favor B ...

A. Yeshua's words in verse 38 will become effective among Jewish Believers when Israel's Messiah returns to reign as LORD of Lords and KING of Kings.
B. Yeshua's words in verse 38 refers to what occurred during Shavuot and onward among Jewish Believers as recorded in the book of Acts.

​

That would seem to imply that at one time you may have favored B. or both A. and B. On the other hand both Yeshua (vs 38) and John (vs 39) may in fact be referring to His Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) that was poured forth on those in the upper room (about 120) that witnessed to the crowds gathered to celebrate the Feast of Shavuot.

FWIW, Messianic members (including me) in this Messianic Judaism forum don't refer to the Jewish Feast of First Fruits (Hag HaMatzah, 3rd Day of Unleavened Bread, The Risen Lamb of Elohim) as 'Easter' as you've done on this thread. Easter is a Christian word for the Feast of First Fruits which occurs on April 3-4, 2018 ( TorahCalendar.com )

​

Lulav is free to post, and defend, her own theses on any issue she chooses. I did respond to Lulav's post.

I have repeated where I stand over and over and your insistence on asking is getting quite tiresome

Re Alpha - when it first came out those of us who did not agree with Rev Nick on some issues delivered the course 'live', thereby avoiding the bits with which we disagreed. Rev Nick then clamped down on this and ruled we can only use the material as supplied, so I stopped teaching the course, as did some others.

I used the term Easter as you seemed to think that all MJ's on here are Christians - I told you that is not the case, MJism on here is a Judaism, but feel free to use alternative wording if it helps.

 

[Lulav]

​

My previous reference to 'church' (not capitalized) refers to the 1st Century body of Believers that gathered in their homes to worship together and NOT what was to later become an impressive looking physical 'Church' edifice or Church Council. The Chinese underground 'church' refers to a body of Believers and NOT a physical building.

Are you aware that CF considers the Messianic Judaism movement to be a form of Christianity? It is not unusual for Messianic Jews in Israel to also be referred to as Christians by secular and orthodox Jews.

"Thus, it's not an impossibility that the Apostles and other 1st Century Jewish
Followers would consider themselves Christians in the best sense of the word."
​

Acts 1:14-15 is an example of a Jewish 'church' gathering not held in a synagogue ...

​

Acts 12:12 is another example of the early 'church' where Jewish men and women had gathered together to pray for Peter ...

​

You've previously replied to Vis that we all agree on verse 38, that Yeshua means what He says as all translations imply that the 'Rivers out of his belly" refers to Believers ...

​

Do you favor A over B as the correct interpretation of Yeshua's words and thus possibly the disconnect when verse 39 in translations seems to favor B ...

A. Yeshua's words in verse 38 will become effective among Jewish Believers when Israel's Messiah returns to reign as LORD of Lords and KING of Kings.
B. Yeshua's words in verse 38 refers to what occurred during Shavuot and onward among Jewish Believers as recorded in the book of Acts.​

I just wanted to say that the use of the word 'Church' is another Anglicanism if you will of what was formed in the Desert after the first passover.

Most MJ's I know don't say they are going to church, but rather Synagogue, some even say 'Temple'.

Your usage of 'church' here

My previous reference to 'church' (not capitalized) refers to the 1st Century body of Believers that gathered in their homes to worship together

Would be referring to the community of believers. This was called at the time, the qahal, or in Greek, the Eclesia.


I'm sure, though it's not mentioned or has been edited out that the Apostles and disciples met in a synagogue of their own. The synagogue was a place for worship, school, place of study, and community. They did not meet in a church, nor were they called Christians, but referred to as a sect of Judaism called 'The Way'.

 

[Lulav]

Your post read as being uncertain - probably just how it was worded - I expected to see a question mark.

I meant no offence

Oh, NP, if I do word something like that it' probably a question for others to ask themselves

 

[Lulav]

​

You've previously replied to Vis that we all agree on verse 38, that Yeshua means what He says as translations(Christian interpretation?) implies that the "Rivers out of his belly" refers to Jewish Believers during and after Shavuot (book of Acts). However, Lulav's reply(s) seems to question both vs 38 and 39.

38 "he who is believing in me, according as the Writing said, 'Rivers out of his belly shall flow of living water;' "​

Lulav was not questioning vs 38, my comments If I remember correctly were about the parenthesis part, vs 39. I was only commenting on the choice of wording, however the writer may have used his own version of referring to the tanakh and not directly quoting Yeshua.

​

FWIW, Messianic members (including me) in this Messianic Judaism forum don't refer to the Jewish Feast of First Fruits (Hag HaMatzah, 3rd Day of Unleavened Bread, The Risen Lamb of Elohim) as 'Easter' as you've done on this thread. Easter is a Christian word for the Feast of First Fruits which occurs on April 3-4, 2018 ( TorahCalendar.com )

​

Sadly in most translation the word 'Easter' is used instead of Passover. The only Christians I know of that don't use Easter are the Orthodox, they use Pascha, which is close enough.

 

[AbbaLove]

Sadly in most translation the word 'Easter' is used instead of Passover. The only Christians I know of that don't use Easter are the Orthodox, they use Pascha, which is close enough.

Some Christians use the word Resurrection Sunday when referring of the Feast of First Fruits. The Feast of First Fruits occurs during the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Passover refers to the day the Israelites slaughtered their lambs during 'twilight' (Exodus 12:6, JPS Tanakh 1985 edition) and later on when the High Priest slaughtered the Paschal lamb on the 14th of Aviv/Nisan.

Festival/Appointed Time Date Meaning Status
1. Passover/Pesach ~ Fulfilled
2. Unleavened Bread ~ Fulfilled
3. Firstfruits/Grain Harvest ~ Fulfilled
4. Shavuot/Pentecost ~ Fulfilled
5. Yom Teruah/Trumpets)/Rosh Hashana ~ Future
6. Day of Atonement/Yom Kippur ~ Future
7. Tabernacles/Sukkot ~ Future​

However, some Messianic Jews don't specifically celebrate the Feast of First Fruits per se being more inline with orthodox Judaism (e.g. Chabad) ... Passover (Pesach) 2018 - In 2018, Passover will be celebrated from March 30-April 7

The first two days and last two days (the latter commemorating the splitting of the Red Sea) are full-fledged holidays. The middle four days are called Chol Hamoed, semi-festive “intermediate days,” when most forms of work are permitted​

"Our Creator, YHWH (Yahweh) commanded Believers to keep and celebrate seven yearly Festivals/Appointed Times. These include Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Weeks, Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles (Leviticus 23). As believers in YHWH and His Son, Yeshua, everyone must observe the seven Biblical feasts/festivals."​

www.therefinersfire.org/jewish_holidays.htm
_________________________________________________________
​

[Staff edit].

Could you please clarify the Mod's warning with respect to whether or not this MJ forum:​

Is a Christian forum or Not a Christian forum ... תודה (Thanks!)​

MJ is a form of Judaism on CF, not Christianity.

 

[Heber Book List]

​

PS: Don't mean to derail this thread, but it may be heading in that direction. Are you up for restarting your "Featured" thread (discussing John 8:58) unless like this thread (John 7:38-39) it's too controversial in this MJ forum and another warning and Mod Hat lock may be forthcoming
​

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (KJV)

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. (JUB)​

​

Unfortunately your "Featured" thread was cleaned up and then locked
with the following Mod Hat notice ...

"Faith groups and individuals that deny the full, eternal deity of
Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human
flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are
considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal
deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian
theology and are not allowed in "Christians Only" forums.
Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with
Trinitarian beliefs."
​

The Mod's above warning is somewhat confusing as the Messianic Judaism movement and many MJ members don't consider this MJ forum to be a Christian forum. The warning gives the impression that the Mod believes this MJ forum is a form of Christianity and as such non-Trinitarian beliefs are not allowed in this MJ forum. Could you please clarify the Mod's warning with respect to whether or not this MJ forum:

Is a Christian forum or Not a Christian forum ... תודה (Thanks!)​

​

THE SOP for these fora states [emphasis in the 2nd point is mine]:

We believe:

• First and foremost that Yeshua is the promised Messiah to Israel and to the nations.
• Messianic Judaism is a sect of Judaism that is the fulfillment of the Jewish Scriptures.
• The books of the Bible (Genesis to Revelation) are ordained by G-d to be His word to us.
• Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles believe the Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept, elucidated, and taught.
• Yeshua instructed us to ‘Follow Me’, therefore we leave it to each individual to practice Torah (halacha) in a way that he/she believes Yeshua did.
• Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles are equal in Messiah on this forum and are permitted to observe Torah without condemnation.
• MJs and MGs keep Torah for the love of G-d and to practice sanctified living, not for salvation.

>>>These beliefs must be respected by all posters<<<



I'm surprised you don't know! Everyone who posts on MJ fora is supposed to sign up to the SOP before posting! See the red sticky at the top of the forum page and the sign up sticky as well.

 

[AbbaLove]

[Staff edit].​

____________________________________________________​

Anyhow here are a couple other possible "As it is written" scriptures added in bracketed parenthesis between the end of vs 38 and beginning of verse 39 in the ONMB (a Jewish Messianic heart translation). Perhaps, [staff edit] it is aptly relevant to verses 38 and 39 (Capitalization vs non-capitalizaton does make a difference). There isn't a translation that capitalizes *his in verse 38.

38. The one who believes in Me, just as the scriptures said, "rivers of living water
will flow out from *his inner being" (Proverbs 18:4, Isaiah 58:11).
39. And He said this about the Spirit, which those who believed in Him were about
to take: for the Spirit was not yet given, because Y'shua was not yet glorified.​

A question for you (40 years of theological expertise). Is there any reference in the Gospel of John or the other Gospels that reference Yeshua attended Shavuot? Have wondered why verse 37-39 wasn't during Shavuot instead of the Feast of Tabernacles. Is it also your understanding that Shavuot is one of the 3 appointed times (Moeds) when all Hebrew/Jewish males are to travel to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feasts of Passover, Shavuot and Tabernacles? Do you know if that was the command/law for all males to be in Jerusalem for these 3 Feasts (Moedim) since the time of Solomon and the First Temple?