Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..?

[Yelsemnos]

Psalm 104
14 He causes the grass to grow for the cattle,
And vegetation for the labor of man,
So that he may bring forth food from the earth,
15 And wine which makes man’s heart glad,
So that he may make his face glisten with oil,
And food which sustains man’s heart.

I used to think drinking with any intoxication whatsoever was bad. But the buzzed feeling is really good. And there is biblical evidence to support that such indulgence is not a sin. Sure you could make it one, but you can do the same thing with food.

 

[honorthesabbath]

Well ive been Drinking for the last 40 Years; I see no harm in it at all [Im NOT A SDA Member], for me its a social thing, Through Pubs I get Work [Im a Builder]
meet people and, whats that new Term..... "Network"
I DONT Drink at home, like whats the point ?.

Going back to scripture, of course it was NOT Grape Juice; but proper wine, This "Grape Juice" is a pure SDA Invention by SDAs to cover the MUST Not Drink Ban.

I Think Paul [NO Not ME !] said "Moderation in all things"
I think thats as true now, as way back then.

When Paul said all things in moderation, he was talking about the permitted things. Let's think this through. We HAVE to eat to live, but we are admonished not to over eat. We are also admonished to not eat those things that are harmful to our bodies since we are to present them 'living sacrifices, holy, unto the Lord".

So let me ask you, how much cocaine would the Lord permit His children to snort up their noses? How much would be moderate?

How many people can we kill in moderation? Adulterous relationships? How many ? Can I have 2 or 3 pagan god statues in my house to bow down to? Would 5 be to many?

Also Paul, think about this. When we have ZERO alcohol in us, we are considered 'sober'. But just one ounce in us, and we are in the beginning stages of drunkeness. Alcohol is listed in the same category as narcotics. Both are mind altering substances and both are killers.

Jesus created us in purity and holiness, drugs (including alcohol) are satans invention to ruin man's minds and lives.

 

[thecountrydoc]

Glad you stopped by Paul and I hope this will be only the first of many stops.

The debate that is being carried on here is one that I don't need the Bible to support my position. My personal position on this subject can be supported with nothing but clinical evidence.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[Sophia7]

Glad you stopped by Paul and I hope this will be only the first of many stops.

The debate that is being carried on here is one that I don't need the Bible to support my position. My personal position on this subject can be supported with nothing but clinical evidence.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

Doc, for once I kind of agree with you. I think that it would be much better to argue your position on this from a clinical perspective than from a biblical perspective.

 

[djconklin]

On the Oprah show they pointed out that even one glass of wine affects one's decision-making skills.

When Christ could have used a drink the most (according to some people) He refused it.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

When Paul said all things in moderation, he was talking about the permitted things.

Alcoholic beverages fall into this category. The Scriptural evidence is overwhelming.

So let me ask you, how much cocaine would the Lord permit His children to snort up their noses? How much would be moderate?

Also Paul, think about this. When we have ZERO alcohol in us, we are considered 'sober'. But just one ounce in us, and we are in the beginning stages of drunkeness. Alcohol is listed in the same category as narcotics. Both are mind altering substances and both are killers.

See post #7

How many people can we kill in moderation? Adulterous relationships? How many ? Can I have 2 or 3 pagan god statues in my house to bow down to? Would 5 be to many?

Again, these are things that are forbidden by scripture, in fact clear violations of the Ten Commandments, so I don't see how the comparison is valid.

Jesus created us in purity and holiness, drugs (including alcohol) are satans invention to ruin man's minds and lives.

It's not the substances that are evil, it's the way they are used that makes them that way.

The debate that is being carried on here is one that I don't need the Bible to support my position. My personal position on this subject can be supported with nothing but clinical evidence.

I'm sure you can, doc, but not being a physician myself, it would be a bit beyond what I can really discuss. From what I understand, the prevailing view in the medical community today is that for most people, drinking in moderation is healthier than abstinence. Of course, as recently as 20 years ago, the commonly accepted view was quite different, and it way well change again in the future as more research is done.

What I do know is that God created our bodies, so He would know what was good for them. If wine in any quantity was harmful to us, He would not have sanctioned it use in Scripture.

 

[djconklin]

Psalm 104
14 He causes the grass to grow for the cattle,
And vegetation for the labor of man,
So that he may bring forth food from the earth,
15 And wine which makes man’s heart glad,
So that he may make his face glisten with oil,
And food which sustains man’s heart.

The SDA commentary refers one to Deut. 14:26 and has an excellant discussion of the issue there.

 

[JonMiller]

On the Oprah show they pointed out that even one glass of wine affects one's decision-making skills.

When Christ could have used a drink the most (according to some people) He refused it.

It depends on your tolerance, body mass, and what other food you have intaked recently, as well as other factors.

Note that God definitely does as some people to abstain completely from alcohol (see examples in the OT).

I also can understand the viewpoint (stated by Billy Graham?) that while alcohol consumption isn't a sin in and of itself, that it is a stumbling block for so many that it is best to be an example and not imbibe at all. (paraphrase)

Currently I have a couple drinks a month. I would be willing to change my practice, but haven't yet seen a reason to do so. I did see a reason to change my pratice of getting drunk several times a week, and did so (and God definitely led me in that).

JM

 

[djconklin]

The Bible is quite clear: "Wine is a mocker, strong drink (and this was a sugar drink, they didn't have stroing drink as we call it today till 500AD) is raging ..."

Different folks have different stumbling blocks. Since one of my uncles died of cirrhosis of the liver B4 his 43rd birthday I see no reason to kill any of my brain cells no matter how few might be killed from even a single sip. Christ didn't take it when He could have used the most so why should I take one period? Do I "need" to drink in order to be sociable? Or, to relax? Nope on either count.

 

[catlover]

Glad you stopped by Paul and I hope this will be only the first of many stops.

The debate that is being carried on here is one that I don't need the Bible to support my position. My personal position on this subject can be supported with nothing but clinical evidence.

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

there really are no benefits to alcohol are there? It increases a woman's risk of breast cancer, the list can go on.

 

[TrustAndObey]

There's no nutritional value in alcohol. Some types have a little protein and carbs from the sugar but it's mostly empty calories and it destroys brain cells, even a very small amount does.

 

[catlover]

There's no nutritional value in alcohol. Some types have a little protein and carbs from the sugar but it's mostly empty calories and it destroys brain cells, even a very small amount does.

Yes, that is "wet brain" there is a certain nutrient required for the brain to function, and alcohol destroys that...

My life has been affected by alcoholism...one of my parents it's sad.

 

[TrustAndObey]

My uncle Bill was such a bad alcoholic that he had bruises all over his entire body from his liver shutting down. BLACK bruises that were very deep. He also had some esophageal bleeding, and that's what finally made him stop drinking.

He's an exception to the rule, but he did fully recover and has been a recovering alcoholic for almost 2 decades.

 

[capnator]

What are the fruits of drinking alcohol?

Mat 7:20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Given the KNOWN effects that alcohol has on people and our communties how could the church argue for it?

Biblically one could use the same arguments for Marajuana use as is used to support alcohol usage, but for some reason this never happens.

The rationale is we can drink but not get drunk... what is drunk and how do you define it? I know from when I was drinking you pretty much could say to yourself that you weren't drunk until you were really drunk, from the inside looking out with a skinful of booze is a whole lot different from someone a sober person veiwing your actions.

For the average person Is 1 standard drink drunk? How about 2? 2.1... 2.2, 2.25 at what point do you cross into drunkeness, as soon as you take a sip it starts to effect you.
The Medical Effects of Alcohol

In the Immediate Term:


Immediately, alcohol makes you react slower, make less good decisions and impairs the ability to perform accurate tasks. In harsh conditions, you fare much less well; to drink when very hot or very cold is suicidal. It makes you less alert.3 Alcohol makes you feel warm because it causes your capillaries to allow more blood to the surface of the skin; but this also increases the rate that you lose heat through your skin. You think you are warmer, but you are actually losing heat quicker. Alcohol simultaneously makes you more confident but less capable of acting and thinking. In the Short Term:


An Army publication, relying on expert medical data, finds that alcohol has the following effects:

“

• Interferes with fitness; heart and lungs work less efficiently
• It damages muscles
• It can lead to increased weight
• It increases the risk of accidents and injuries
• It damages the immune system, making you more prone to infection
• It increases the time needed to recover from injuries and illnesses
• It causes dehydration, making exercise dangerous and unpleasant

” "Alcohol And Drugs", British Army Publication [3]
​

Even a moderate drinker gets ill more, has more accidents and is less fit. Certainly, no sportsman wants to be anything but a light drinker! In the Long Term:

• Alcohol effects the brain in various ways, "but two effects seem most important":
  “First, alcohol kills nerve cells - but in a highly selective fashion. In the January 30, 1981 issue of Science, Charles Golden and his associates report that alcohol tends to destroy brain tissue primarily in the dominant hemisphere. The behavioural changes associated with chronic drunkenness tend to support Golden's findings. For example, the slurred speech, the inability to think logically and to plan effectively, and the emotional outbursts shown by many alcoholics all suggest that alcohol disrupts the dominance normally shown by the left hemisphere. Indeed, Golden and his colleagues believe these symptoms result from the right hemisphere's attempts to take over the functions lost through destruction of tissue in the left hemisphere.” "Understanding Human Behavior" by McConnel, James V, p79
  ​
• Chronic liver disease. Deaths from cirrhosis have increased in the UK - by 900% from 1970 to 2000. The primary cause of cirrhosis is too much drink1.
• Early death5.

Alcohol, Crime and Violence

• "Almost half of all victims of violence report that perpetrators were under the influence."1
• "The role of alcohol in combination with other drugs should not be ignored. Violence seems to be more closely linked with excessive intake of alcohol than with many illegal drugs [...] - though there is room to argue that this is a culturally mediated effect rather than a necessary effect of alcohol."2, p12
• "In the Army 75% of violent offences are alcohol related. Time and resources are also wasted treating those who have injured themselves or made themselves ill through the misuse of alcohol"3
• "Over 50% of men convicted of sexual assault and rape had been drinking prior to the attack. An equally high proportion of victims of rape had themselves been under the influence of alcohol at the time of the attack"3

http://www.vexen.co.uk/self/alcohol.html

 

[k4c]

The prinicple was answered back in 1873 by a non-SDA:

Dr. Robert Boyd, The World's Hope, or Rock of Ages (1873, 1880 printing): 674

"Whenever I hear professing Christians beginning to inquire what harm there can be in the social dance, or what harm there can be in the theatre, or in games of chance, I always know that it is a sign that the love of Christ is declining in their hearts, if indeed it ever existed at all. It is an attempt to get something to satisfy conscience, and is virtually declaring that the bread of life with which Christ feeds the soul does not sat-

675

isfy, and that therefore they are anxious to find some excuse forgetting back to the service of Satan. And, instead of arguing the rightness or the wrongness of those things of which no truly spiritual mind has any doubt, I would say, Take heed, my brother, to your own heart. Your Lord has warned you, not only against going back, but against even looking back; and you are instructed not to seem to come short. You are to shun the very appearance of evil, and the very fact that you are beginning to glance with approval at the abounding iniquity of the world, shows that your love to the Redeemer is "waxing cold." Take that cold heart again to Jesus; and rest not satisfied till it is brimming over with his love, "who was holy, harmless, and separated from sinners."

When Christ was on the cross suffering unimaginable agony that certainly would have been the time to take a drink--and yet He set an example for us by refusing.

Many people use the fact that Jesus didn't drink the wine while He was on the cross but this is not completly true. Jesus did in fact refuse the wine the first time but not the second time.

John 19:30 After Jesus drank the wine, he said, "It is finished!'' Then he bowed his head and died.

Jesus drank wine and ate meat. He was even called a wine bibber. This would be meaningless if Jesus didn't drink wine.

 

[TrustAndObey]

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

They used it to mock Him because He was thirsty.

Luke 23:36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,

 

[k4c]

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

They used it to mock Him because He was thirsty.

Luke 23:36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,

Did you miss the trees because of the forest?

Jesus drank the wine. He also drank wine on many other occasions. As a matter of fact, Jesus turned water into wine. And please don't say it was grape juice because I might fall over in my chair.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Then you need to do the math and tell us how many people were at the wedding, tell us how many drinks each person had, and explain to me why Jesus would encourage drunkenness while at the same time scripture says a drunkard would never see the kingdom of heaven.

 

[k4c]

Then you need to do the math and tell us how many people were at the wedding, tell us how many drinks each person had, and explain to me why Jesus would encourage drunkenness while at the same time scripture says a drunkard would never see the kingdom of heaven.

You are drawing conclusions from these verses that are not there. So Jesus made 30 gallons of wine or 200 hundred gallons of wine. This does not matter, the fact is He turned water into wine. Now this wine could have been for a party of 300 or 2000 people, I don't know. Maybe He made enough wine to store for the next five weddings. Maybe the wedding was a special one that was to last several days. Either way Jesus made some good fermented wine, which was complement by the wedding party.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Wedding feasts in those days typically lasted for a week. So if the miracle was performed in the middle of the feast, that's about three days' supply of wine. Also, wine was typically watered down about two or three parts water to one part wine before being consumed, so the alcohol content would be significantly lower. So the amount of wine produced at the wedding does not indicate that those in attendance were drunkards.