Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Rev 1:9 tells me they were in the tribulation. What takes place with regards to the seven churches are Christ's admonitions, warnings and encouragement while they're going through the tribulation. What I don't see taking place is their being taken out of the world in complete contradiction to Christ's prayer in John 17:15I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world....20“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,...
It's like Jesus said: "my words will never pass away"
Colossians 3:20Now to Him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to His power that is at work within us, 21to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.
Isaiah 9:
6For unto us a child is born,
unto us a son is given,
and the government will be upon His shoulders.
And He will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7Of the increase of His government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on the throne of David (Acts 2:29-36)
and over his kingdom,
to establish and sustain it
with justice and righteousness
from that time and forevermore.

The zeal of the LORD of Hosts will accomplish this.

You Preterists do not read verses properly. One word jumps out in a sentence. You then jump to conclusions about one word, and you quote it out of context. Rev 1:9 mentions tribulation. You immediately jumped to the wrong definition. John, an apostle, meant the day-to-day persecution for witnessing about Jesus Christ.

The Tribulation is Daniel’s 70th week. Daniel 9:27 is proof that it’s only a 7-year period. The 21 judgments of God’s wrath have not started and when they do, they will last only seven years. That 7-year period has not yet started. 1 Th 5:2-3 and Rev 6 have not yet occurred.

The verses you cited are about the disciples wanting to go to Heaven with Jesus, upon His ascension (Acts 1:9-10). Jesus let them know that won’t happen, and that they can’t get to Heaven on their own power.

In 2 Kings 2:11, how did Elijah get to Heaven? By God’s power.

In Rev 11:12, how will the 2W (Two Witnesses) get to Heaven after their resurrection? By God’s power.

In 1 Th 4:16-17, we are raptured to Heaven — by God’s power. Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. All manner of details about the rapture is covered in the verses above and these verses: John 14:3, 1 Th 1:10, Ezek 14:21, 1 Cor 15:52 and Rev 3:10. They all are about or have some related details about the pre-Trib rapture.

Rev 1-3 have occurred, being about the seven letters to the seven churches, and the writing of Revelation. Rev 4-21 have not yet occurred.

 

[keras]

In 1 Th 4:16-17, we are raptured to Heaven — by God’s power. Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. All manner of details about the rapture is covered in the verses above and these verses: John 14:3, 1 Th 1:10, Ezek 14:21, 1 Cor 15:52 and Rev 3:10. They all are about or have some related details about the pre-Trib rapture.

But not one of those verses actually say the Church will be raptured to heaven, That idea is entirely assumed at guessed at.
A rapture removal is never said to happen, at any time.

Rev 1-3 have occurred, being about the seven letters to the seven churches, and the writing of Revelation. Rev 4-21 have not yet occurred.

This statement is completely wrong and is a serious scriptural error.
Revelation 4 and 5 are an historical account of what Happened when Jesus Ascended to heaven, circa 30 AD.

It is also plain that the first Five Seals, Rev 6:1-11, were opened by Jesus at that time.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

But not one of those verses actually say the Church will be raptured to heaven, That idea is entirely assumed at guessed at.
A rapture removal is never said to happen, at any time.


This statement is completely wrong and is a serious scriptural error.
Revelation 4 and 5 are an historical account of what Happened when Jesus Ascended to heaven, circa 30 AD.

It is also plain that the first Five Seals, Rev 6:1-11, were opened by Jesus at that time.

Keras, there are several verses that detail the pre-Trib rapture, with different details from each verse.

First, the promise of Jesus that the Church will not enter the Trib is found in Rev 3:10. His words, “I will keep you from the hour of trial” are His promise that the Church will not enter the Trib. “Keep you from the hour of trial” means we will never enter the Trib. That is Rev 3:10’s contribution to the pre-Trib rapture. Is Jesus wrong?

1 Th 1:10 is about Jesus snatching the Church from Earth before the start of the Trib, given that God’s wrath begins in the Trib no later than the second seal. That is 1 Th 1:10’s contribution to the pre-Trib rapture.

1 Cor 15:52 only serves two other rapture verses: 1 Th 4:16-17. Those verses cover our being changed into our eternal bodies (verse 52) and are being gathered together (verse 16) and taken up (snatched up) into heavenly clouds wherein we meet Jesus (verse 17).

Rev 4:1 is explicit about our being pre-Trib raptured straight to Heaven. Rev 4:1 is entirely a future event, the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

But not one of those verses actually say the Church will be raptured to heaven, That idea is entirely assumed at guessed at.
A rapture removal is never said to happen, at any time.


This statement is completely wrong and is a serious scriptural error.
Revelation 4 and 5 are an historical account of what Happened when Jesus Ascended to heaven, circa 30 AD.

It is also plain that the first Five Seals, Rev 6:1-11, were opened by Jesus at that time.

Keras, in Rev 3:10, Jesus says He will keep us from the Trib. We are removed from Earth. That’s also proven by 1 Th 1:10.

Keras, who’s pre-Trib raptured to Heaven in Rev 4:1?

 

[keras]

Keras, in Rev 3:10, Jesus says He will keep us from the Trib. We are removed from Earth. That’s also proven by 1 Th 1:10.

This is pathetic, nowhere does the Bible say the living Christian peoples will be removed from the earth.

Keras, who’s pre-Trib raptured to Heaven in Rev 4:1?

And this is stupidity; that verse refers only to John.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is pathetic, nowhere does the Bible say the living Christian peoples will be removed from the earth.

And this is stupidity; that verse refers only to John.

You are not understanding Rev 3:10 and 1 Th 1:10.

1 Th 1:10 "delivers us" meaning we are "snatched away." We are snatched away from Earth because, in Rev 3:10, Jesus PROMISED to keep us from "the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth."

Rev 3:10 proves that only unbelievers will be on Earth at the start of the Trib ("those who dwell on the earth"). We are snatched away from Earth per 1 Th 1:10. Rev 4:1 commands us to "Come up here," and that is the rapture of the Church directly to Heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You are not understanding Rev 3:10 and 1 Th 1:10.

1 Th 1:10 "delivers us" meaning we are "snatched away." We are snatched away from Earth because, in Rev 3:10, Jesus PROMISED to keep us from "the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth."

Rev 3:10 proves that only unbelievers will be on Earth at the start of the Trib ("those who dwell on the earth"). We are snatched away from Earth per 1 Th 1:10. Rev 4:1 commands us to "Come up here," and that is the rapture of the Church directly to Heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is pathetic, nowhere does the Bible say the living Christian peoples will be removed from the earth.

And this is stupidity; that verse refers only to John.

Keras, please read Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8. In John's own words, what he heard and saw in his vision was shown to him by one angel. John never said he went to Heaven. His vision was given to him while he was on Patmos.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is pathetic, nowhere does the Bible say the living Christian peoples will be removed from the earth.

And this is stupidity; that verse refers only to John.

Keras, you are not adhering to the applicable definition of "delivers us" in 1 Th 1:10. The second usage of "deliverance" in the Bible is about God removing His people from imminent danger. That's the exact scenario in 1 Th 1:10. We are removed from Earth just before God's wrath starts in the Trib. God's wrath provably starts no later than the 2nd seal. We are snatched away before the Trib, and taken directly to Heaven per Rev 4:1.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is pathetic, nowhere does the Bible say the living Christian peoples will be removed from the earth.

And this is stupidity; that verse refers only to John.

Keras, what’s the purpose of the Trib? It’s about two choices: repentance or condemnation. Do you need to repent? Are you condemned? Romans 8:1 (ESV): There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

You now know why we believers will have no reason to enter the Trib. This is why the pre-Trib rapture is real, and why it will happen. But, don’t take my word for it. Will you believe Jesus?

Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

 

[keras]

Heaven is God’s home. Earth is our home. The Lord Jesus, as the Son of God and the Son of man will eventually make Heaven and Earth as one.

Ephesians 1:10…everything in heaven and earth will be brought together under one Head; Jesus Christ.

Just as the separation between heaven and earth will be forever demolished through Jesus, so too will the separation between God and mankind be removed. Revelation 21:3 Now: the dwelling of God is with men and He will live with them.

Zechariah 9:10 The Lord will banish all the things of war, He will proclaim peace to the nations and His rule will extend to the ends of the earth.

God’s plan is to make all things as one, to remove the separation between the spiritual and the physical worlds. This is the ultimate plan of God and the finale of secular history. When God walked with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, it was then a part of heaven, but when they sinned, angels with flaming swords kept mankind out and we await its re-establishment on the renewed earth. Revelation 21 to 22

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Heaven is God’s home. Earth is our home. The Lord Jesus, as the Son of God and the Son of man will eventually make Heaven and Earth as one.

Ephesians 1:10…everything in heaven and earth will be brought together under one Head; Jesus Christ.

Just as the separation between heaven and earth will be forever demolished through Jesus, so too will the separation between God and mankind be removed. Revelation 21:3 Now: the dwelling of God is with men and He will live with them.

Zechariah 9:10 The Lord will banish all the things of war, He will proclaim peace to the nations and His rule will extend to the ends of the earth.

God’s plan is to make all things as one, to remove the separation between the spiritual and the physical worlds. This is the ultimate plan of God and the finale of secular history. When God walked with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, it was then a part of heaven, but when they sinned, angels with flaming swords kept mankind out and we await its re-establishment on the renewed earth. Revelation 21 to 22

Elijah was raptured to Heaven in 2 Kings 2:11.

1 Th 1:10, Ezek 14:21, Rev 6:4, Rev 3:10 and Rev 4:1 all combine to rapture the Church to Heaven pre-Trib.

Millions of new converts from the Trib are raptured to Heaven in Rev 7:9-17.

You have falsely spoken.

 

[keras]

Elijah was raptured to Heaven in 2 Kings 2:11.

1 Th 1:10, Ezek 14:21, Rev 6:4, Rev 3:10 and Rev 4:1 all combine to rapture the Church to Heaven pre-Trib.

Millions of new converts from the Trib are raptured to Heaven in Rev 7:9-17.

You have falsely spoken.

Are you as good as Elijah?
Elijah was taken up to heaven, but never said to live there and we know he didn't; because later; he wrote a letter - 2 Chronicles 21:12

Your verses do not say what you think they do. You have promoted a false belief. Heavy Judgement is coming on all who mislead the people.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

You Preterists do not read verses properly. One word jumps out in a sentence. You then jump to conclusions about one word, and you quote it out of context. Rev 1:9 mentions tribulation. You immediately jumped to the wrong definition. John, an apostle, meant the day-to-day persecution for witnessing about Jesus Christ.

The Tribulation is Daniel’s 70th week. Daniel 9:27 is proof that it’s only a 7-year period. The 21 judgments of God’s wrath have not started and when they do, they will last only seven years. That 7-year period has not yet started. 1 Th 5:2-3 and Rev 6 have not yet occurred.

The verses you cited are about the disciples wanting to go to Heaven with Jesus, upon His ascension (Acts 1:9-10). Jesus let them know that won’t happen, and that they can’t get to Heaven on their own power.

In 2 Kings 2:11, how did Elijah get to Heaven? By God’s power.

In Rev 11:12, how will the 2W (Two Witnesses) get to Heaven after their resurrection? By God’s power.

In 1 Th 4:16-17, we are raptured to Heaven — by God’s power. Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. All manner of details about the rapture is covered in the verses above and these verses: John 14:3, 1 Th 1:10, Ezek 14:21, 1 Cor 15:52 and Rev 3:10. They all are about or have some related details about the pre-Trib rapture.

Rev 1-3 have occurred, being about the seven letters to the seven churches, and the writing of Revelation. Rev 4-21 have not yet occurred.

Not only is your accusation absolutely untrue. Just read what He said to the seven churches like: to Ephesus "But if you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place."
to Thyatira
Rev 2:22Behold, I will cast her onto a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her will suffer great tribulation unless they repent of her deeds. 23Then I will strike her children dead, and all the churches will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
24But I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned the so-called deep things of Satan: I will place no further burden upon you 25than to hold fast to what you have until I come.

Or, to Smyrna
Rev2:10Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison to test you, and you will suffer tribulation for ten days. Be faithful even unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Or to Philadelphia Rev 3:10"10Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

But you make claims that can't be found anywhere in scripture.
If there's a 7 year tribulation, then highlight where it says there'll be a 7 year tribulation. You just claim that Daniel's 70th week is the 7 year tribulation, but no scripture says that, and you can't find one. If there was one, dispensationalists would have found it by now and you would have highlighted it. But zip zero nada.

The same with a "pre trib" rapture. Jesus made it perfectly clear when He said in John 17:15 "I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one." ...20I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message,"
So, for 2000 years now, that has been the case for all who believed in the gospel they preached. Have you believed in the gospel they preached? Then that prayer belongs to you also.
A "pre trib rapture" is a claim of a "pre salvation" and "pre resurrection rapture" also. Salvation comes at the second coming (Heb 9:28)and resurrection comes first before any rapture(1Th 4:16).

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

All who say that there’s no pre-Trib rapture, are all who ignore what Jesus said in Rev 3:10. Jesus said,, in part, ”I will keep you from the hour of trial.” That means just one thing, that no believers will enter the 7-year Trib.

The 7-year Trib is known by studious Bible readers. Daniel’s “70th week” is a 7-year period.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Not only is your accusation absolutely untrue. Just read what He said to the seven churches like: to Ephesus "But if you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place."
to Thyatira
Rev 2:22Behold, I will cast her onto a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her will suffer great tribulation unless they repent of her deeds. 23Then I will strike her children dead, and all the churches will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
24But I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned the so-called deep things of Satan: I will place no further burden upon you 25than to hold fast to what you have until I come.

Or, to Smyrna
Rev2:10Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison to test you, and you will suffer tribulation for ten days. Be faithful even unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Or to Philadelphia Rev 3:10"10Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

But you make claims that can't be found anywhere in scripture.
If there's a 7 year tribulation, then highlight where it says there'll be a 7 year tribulation. You just claim that Daniel's 70th week is the 7 year tribulation, but no scripture says that, and you can't find one. If there was one, dispensationalists would have found it by now and you would have highlighted it. But zip zero nada.

The same with a "pre trib" rapture. Jesus made it perfectly clear when He said in John 17:15 "I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one." ...20I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message,"
So, for 2000 years now, that has been the case for all who believed in the gospel they preached. Have you believed in the gospel they preached? Then that prayer belongs to you also.
A "pre trib rapture" is a claim of a "pre salvation" and "pre resurrection rapture" also. Salvation comes at the second coming (Heb 9:28)and resurrection comes first before any rapture(1Th 4:16).

Elijah was raptured to Heaven in 2 Kings 2:11.

1 Th 1:10, Ezek 14:21, Rev 6:4, Rev 3:10 and Rev 4:1all combine to rapture the Church to Heaven pre-Trib.

Millions of new converts from the Trib are raptured to Heaven in Rev 7:9-17.

You have falsely spoken.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Are you as good as Elijah?
Elijah was taken up to heaven, but never said to live there and we know he didn't; because later; he wrote a letter - 2 Chronicles 21:12

Your verses do not say what you think they do. You have promoted a false belief. Heavy Judgement is coming on all who mislead the people.

Prove that Elijah came back to Earth.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Are you as good as Elijah?
Elijah was taken up to heaven, but never said to live there and we know he didn't; because later; he wrote a letter - 2 Chronicles 21:12

Your verses do not say what you think they do. You have promoted a false belief. Heavy Judgement is coming on all who mislead the people.

Prove that Elijah came back to Earth.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Are you as good as Elijah?
Elijah was taken up to heaven, but never said to live there and we know he didn't; because later; he wrote a letter - 2 Chronicles 21:12

Your verses do not say what you think they do. You have promoted a false belief. Heavy Judgement is coming on all who mislead the people.

Prove one verse and what I said about it, is false.

 

[keras]

Prove one verse and what I said about it, is false.

I have; and everyone can see how you falsely accuse those who refute you.

There is simply no scripture that proves the Lord will take His Church to heaven. That idea is a lie from Satan the father of lies.
It high time the Moderators chucked you off this Forum, for your rude and accusative attitude.