Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

keras said:

Correct, the 144,000 are part of the Great Multitude of the Christian peoples, who have stood firm in their faith during the recently happened Sixth Seal devastation.
They are all in the holy Land and Jesus reveals Himself to them, 1 Thess 1:10; as He selects 12,000 out from each of the twelve groups they will be divided into. Revelation 14:1-5

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They're not only part of the great multitude they are the great multitude.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

They are next seen in Heaven, in Rev 7:8-17.

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This is where you make guesses and wrong assumptions. The word heaven is never mentioned in Revelation 7. You have added it to make your false theory work and you have no credibility.
Let me assure you that teachers who add to scripture, esp to Revelation, will be more severely Judged. James 3:1

Canuckster said:

They're not only part of the great multitude they are the great multitude.

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144,000 is a countable number, not an uncountable multitude.

Jesus will select them out from all the Christian peoples, those from every tribe, [of Israel] every race, nation and language., who will have proved their faith by trusting in the Lord for His protection during the terrifying Sixth Seal shocking disaster.
WE will be gathered from all over the world into our heritage of that area given to Abraham and his descendants by ethnicity and by grafting in. Isaiah 66:15-21, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26

keras said:

144,000 is a countable number, not an uncountable multitude.

Jesus will select them out from all the Christian peoples, those from every tribe, [of Israel] every race, nation and language., who will have proved their faith by trusting in the Lord for His protection during the terrifying Sixth Seal shocking disaster.
WE will be gathered from all over the world into our heritage of that area given to Abraham and his descendants by ethnicity and by grafting in. Isaiah 66:15-21, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26

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keras said:

This is where you make guesses and wrong assumptions. The word heaven is never mentioned in Revelation 7. You have added it to make your false theory work and you have no credibility.
Let me assure you that teachers who add to scripture, esp to Revelation, will be more severely Judged. James 3:1

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Regarding the 144k being raptured to Heaven: Rev 14:3 (ESV): ... and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. ...

Where is the throne where the four living creatures and the elders hang out?

Regarding the GM being raptured to Heaven: In Rev 7:9 (ESV) ... standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

Where is "the throne" and where is "the Lamb" in Rev 7:9?

keras said:

144,000 is a countable number, not an uncountable multitude.

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That's why he heard the number counted for him, first... so he (one man) wouldn't have to try and count a 144,000 people (a great multitude) wearing white robes. Do you know how hard it is for one man to count two football stadiums of people standing in front of him wearing white robes? It's the same group... first he hears... then after he hears he looked and beheld a great multitude which no one person could count.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

Where is "the throne" and where is "the Lamb" in Rev 7:9?

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You wrongly try to confine God and all Spiritual things to a physical location. Your supposed 'heaven', as a place separated from our universe and earth.
That idea is refuted by many scriptures which confirm the omnipotence of God.

Canuckster said:

That's why he heard the number counted for him, first... so he (one man) wouldn't have to try and count a 144,000 people (a great multitude) wearing white robes. Do you know how hard it is for one man to count two football stadiums of people standing in front of him wearing white robes? It's the same group... first he hears... then after he hears he looked and beheld a great multitude which no one person could count.

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Yes; John saw one crowd of people.
Jesus will stand on Mt Zion, in Jerusalem and choose the 144k out from the great multitude of the Christian peoples. Revelation 14:1-5
Logical, sensible and as the Bible tells it.

As for counting people, the ancient Israelites were divided into hundreds; each with an elected leader. No so hard to count 144 hundreds. Or easier still to count 12 hundreds from each people group.

keras said:

Yes; John saw one crowd of people.
Jesus will stand on Mt Zion, in Jerusalem and choose the 144k out from the great multitude of the Christian peoples. Revelation 14:1-5
Logical, sensible and as the Bible tells it.

As for counting people, the ancient Israelites were divided into hundreds; each with an elected leader. No so hard to count 144 hundreds. Or easier still to count 12 hundreds from each people group.

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It's not possible for one man to accurately count two football stadiums of people standing up in front of him dressed in white robes... The 144k is the great multitude who were all "sealed" consisting "of ALL nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues... It doesn't say "all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues except the "tribes, peoples, and tongues" of the children of Israel.

keras said:

You wrongly try to confine God and all Spiritual things to a physical location. Your supposed 'heaven', as a place separated from our universe and earth.
That idea is refuted by many scriptures which confirm the omnipotence of God.

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Prove it. Show me one verse that says Heaven is not a physical place. Where is the throne of God in Rev 7:10? Where is the altar in Rev 6:9?

Canuckster said:

That's why he heard the number counted for him, first... so he (one man) wouldn't have to try and count a 144,000 people (a great multitude) wearing white robes. Do you know how hard it is for one man to count two football stadiums of people standing in front of him wearing white robes? It's the same group... first he hears... then after he hears he looked and beheld a great multitude which no one person could count.

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Rev 7:3-9 cite the origin of the 144,000 servants of God. Are they ever killed? As sealed servants of God (Rev 7:3), they are never killed. All the of GM are martyrs for their testimony of Jesus. All of them are resurrected in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They then appear in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17. The GM is millions of new converts from the Trib, a number so great it can't be counted. The proof is in Rev 7:9 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number,

The GM is not the 144k. The GM is millions of new converts who are saved by the hard work of the 144k.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

The proof is in Rev 7:9 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number,

The GM is not the 144k. The GM is millions of new converts who are saved by the hard work of the 144k.

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Yes... the proof is Rev 7:9... first he "heard (not saw) the number of those who were sealed." Then "After this [he] looked, and behold" ... he SAW a great multitude... he beheld the number of those sealed. Also the proof is that those that he saw were of ALL nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues which included the "tribes, peoples, and tongues" of the children of Israel. All means all... no exceptions.

This great multitude being millions who are saved "by the hard work of the 144k" instead of Christ is your own fabrication.

Canuckster said:

Yes... the proof is Rev 7:9... first he "heard (not saw) the number of those who were sealed." Then "After this [he] looked, and behold" ... he SAW a great multitude... he beheld the number of those sealed. Also the proof is that those that he saw were of ALL nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues which included the "tribes, peoples, and tongues" of the children of Israel. All means all... no exceptions.

This great multitude being millions who are saved "by the hard work of the 144k" instead of Christ is your own fabrication.

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Look, you're splitting hairs. It goes without saying that all salvation occurs through Jesus. The 144k are servants of God (Rev 7:3) who will work to save millions of new converts in the Trib, by bringing them to repentance and forgiveness through Jesus Christ. My point is the 144k are not the GM (great multitude). Do you agree with that?

keras said:

Correct, the 144,000 are part of the Great Multitude of the Christian peoples, who have stood firm in their faith during the recently happened Sixth Seal devastation.
They are all in the holy Land and Jesus reveals Himself to them, 1 Thess 1:10; as He selects 12,000 out from each of the twelve groups they will be divided into. Revelation 14:1-5

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Keras, first, Jesus promised all believers in Rev 3:10 that he would keep us from the Trib. That means all believers who are alive immediately before the start of the Trib, will be kept from entering it. 1 Th 1:10 is about how Jesus "delivers us" ("snatches us") up, up and away from Earth and straight into Heaven through 1 Th 4:16-17, 1 Cor 15:52 and Rev 4:1. You can't prove apostle John ever left the island of Patmos during his vision of Revelation. Therefore, Rev 4:1 is entirely a future event, known as the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

You are misinterpreting Rev 7. The 144k are not part of the GM. Rev 7:1-8 say (in verse 3) that the 144k are servants of God who come from 12 tribes (verses 5-8). Rev 7:1-8 are all about the 144,000 sealed servants of God from 12 tribes.

The second half of Rev 7 (verses 9-17) are exclusively about the GM, who are described in verse 9 as "a great multitude that no one could number..."). The 144k are never said to be, in your words, "part of the Great Multitude of the Christian peoples..."). You are making that up.

The GM is composed of new converts in the Trib who are martyred. The new converts come about because many unbelievers in the Trib come to their senses, repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. They are killed for their testimony of Jesus Christ (Rev 6:9). The martyrs from the GT are found in Rev 12:17 and Rev 13:7 & 15. They are killed for keeping the commandments of God and for holding to the testimony of Jesus (Rev 12:17) or for refusing to worship the image of the beast (Rev 13:15). They become the "fellow servants" cited in Rev 6:11. The martyrs from the GT also end up under the altar.

All of the martyrs are resurrected in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They are the GM. They are millions of new converts who came to Christ in the Trib, and who were martyred for their testimony of Jesus Christ or for refusing to worship the beast. After their resurrection in Rev 20:4, the GM is seen in Heaven, in Rev 7:9.

The 144k do not go to Heaven until Rev 14:3. That further proves that the 144k are not part of the GM. The 144k are instrumental in causing the greatest revival in the Trib, by leading a multitude to Christ.

Canuckster said:

Yes... the proof is Rev 7:9... first he "heard (not saw) the number of those who were sealed." Then "After this [he] looked, and behold" ... he SAW a great multitude... he beheld the number of those sealed. Also the proof is that those that he saw were of ALL nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues which included the "tribes, peoples, and tongues" of the children of Israel. All means all... no exceptions.

This great multitude being millions who are saved "by the hard work of the 144k" instead of Christ is your own fabrication.

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Please see my last reply to keras.

Thank you.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

Jesus promised all believers in Rev 3:10 that he would keep us from the Trib.

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Actually, Jesus was talking to the Church in Philadelphia.
He said: Because you have kept My Command and have stood firm, I will keep you from tribulation which is to fall upon the whole world, to test its inhabitants.

But it is right to apply it to us, as we too will soon face difficult times and must stand firm in our faith, in order for the Lord to protect those who prove their trust in Him.
There is not even a hint of anyone being raptured; there, or anywhere in scripture. The rapture to heaven is a false teaching and cannot happen.

keras said:

Actually, Jesus was talking to the Church in Philadelphia.
He said: Because you have kept My Command and have stood firm, I will keep you from tribulation which is to fall upon the whole world, to test its inhabitants.

But it is right to apply it to us, as we too will soon face difficult times and must stand firm in our faith, in order for the Lord to protect those who prove their trust in Him.
There is not even a hint of anyone being raptured; there, or anywhere in scripture. The rapture to heaven is a false teaching and cannot happen.

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You're missing the time references: "have kept" and "stood firm" are past tense. Therefore, if the Trib were immediately about to start, Jesus said, "I will keep you from the hour of trial," which would only pertain to the present. We are to be standing firm in our faith now, to reflect the joy of our salvation and our quest to be like Jesus. You're claiming that "have kept" and "stood firm" are future tense that apply to after we supposedly enter the Trib.

No believers enter the Trib. Let's look at Rev 6:4 (NIV): Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other. To him was given a large sword.

Do you really think Christians will be compelled to commit indiscriminate murder in the fulfillment of Rev 6:4? Do you realize only unbelievers could be so compelled? It is therefore proven we are not there in Rev 6:4, the 2nd seal.

Let's take up Rev 6:15-17. Verse 15 (ESV) uses the word "everyone" representing everyone on Earth as of the 6th seal. All who are present manifestly prove by their detailed behavior that they are unbelievers who unabashedly reject Jesus. We are not there in the 6th seal.

Let's look at Rev 9:4 (NIV): They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

The only people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads will be harmed. They are "those who dwell on the earth," certified unbelievers who manifestly reject Jesus. We are not there in Rev 9:4.

Rev 3:10 is about keeping believers from the Trib, and then trying "those who dwell on the earth" through 21 judgements of God's wrath. "Those who dwell on the earth" are certified unbelievers in every use of that phrase throughout the Trib. Believers do not enter the Trib.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

You're missing the time references: "have kept" and "stood firm" are past tense.

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Most Prophecy is Written in the past tense, if you haven't noticed. They are given to us in that way so as to confirm their eventual fulfilment.

Placing so much importance on Rev 3:10, just shows how little, if any; scripture supports the pre-trib rapture theory. That verse simply does not prove such a critical idea. The Lord taking His people to heaven, is never stated in the Bible, it is s false teaching and will never happen.

They are Ephraim - Gen. 48:19.

keras said:

Most Prophecy is Written in the past tense, if you haven't noticed. They are given to us in that way so as to confirm their eventual fulfilment.

Placing so much importance on Rev 3:10, just shows how little, if any; scripture supports the pre-trib rapture theory. That verse simply does not prove such a critical idea. The Lord taking His people to heaven, is never stated in the Bible, it is s false teaching and will never happen.

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Keras, we are patiently enduring now. We believers will be kept from the Trib. Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

Jeffrey Bowden said:

Keras, we are patiently enduring now. We believers will be kept from the Trib. Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

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keras said:

The Lord taking His people to heaven, is never stated in the Bible

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And a rapture of the Church to heaven, is surely not stated in Revelation 4:1.

Here is how the Lord will bless His Christian peoples, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land:

Jeremiah 33:6-14 See this Land: it lies in ruins, inhabited by neither man or animals. Yet in this place, once more will be heard the sounds of joy and happiness, for I will restore the fortunes of My Land and people. The days are coming, says the Lord, when I shall bestow on Judah and Israel all the blessings I have promised to them.

Isaiah 30:18 The Lord is waiting to show you His favour. He yearns to have pity on you, for the Lord is full of justice. Happy are you who wait on Him.

Isaiah 54:4-10... For a passing moment I forsook you, but with tender affection I shall bring you home again....My covenant promising peace will not be shaken.

Hosea 14:4-7 I shall heal My peoples apostasy and love them freely, for My anger is turned away from them. I shall be as dew to Israel that they may flower and put forth shoots. I am the tree that shelters you; your prosperity comes from Me.

Isaiah 52:6 On that Day My people will know My name and know that it is the Lord who speaks, here I am.

Ezekiel 34:22-31 Therefore, I shall save My flock and they will be ravaged no more....... You are the flock that I feed and I am your God.

Isaiah 65:24=25 Even before My people call to Me, I shall answer. Neither hurt nor harm will be done in all of My holy Land.

Isaiah 46:4 Till you grow old, I am the Lord and when white hairs come, I will carry you still. I have made you and I shall uphold you. I shall carry you away to safety.

Psalm 105:43-44 The Lord led out His people in triumph. He gave them lands of the heathen nations for their possession.

Isaiah 65:20-23 My people will build and plant for themselves, they will enjoy the fruit of their labour. They will be as long lived as a tree.

Ezekiel 36:8-12 Now you: Land of Israel, grow your plants and bear fruit for the homecoming of My people is near. The whole House of Israel will come, very many people and you will be their possession.

Psalm 147:2-3 The Lord gathers His scattered people, He heals their broken spirit and binds their wounds. He rebuilds Jerusalem.

Joel 3:18 When that Day comes the Land will be well watered and productive.

Isaiah 32:15-20 The Spirit from on high will come upon the people, then the Land will become a well watered beautiful garden; a tranquil country, its people living in peace and security.

Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of the present times are not worth comparing with the glory that is going to be revealed to us.

Psalm 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever.
Ref: REB. Some verses abridged

Believe these scriptures, not a theory which has no verses to support it.