Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

keras · Nov 12, 2024

Douggg said:
Philip was not inside a building when he was caught away. So Philip did not pass through a physical structure.

Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Mortal bodies cannot pass through walls, and roofs.

Jesus could; John 20:26
He can empower His people to do it too. The air, walls and roofs, all comprise of atoms.
It will be those people who have proved their faith and trust in the Lord during all the testing times to come, who will be gathered to Jesus in Jerusalem.

This issue also shows up the stupidity of the rapture to heaven believers. The vexed question of; how can we get out of buildings, cars, etc, and do we keep our clothes on?
That is why those deceived by the rapture theory, must fit in a 'glorification', or being made immortal, long before the GWT Judgment.

You have no scriptural support for the idea of the Sixth Seak being 45 days before the Return.
The SS is not part of the Great Tribulation.

Jeffrey Bowden · Nov 12, 2024

Douggg said:
Part of the Great Tribulation.

What begins the Great Tribulation ? The abomination of desolation set up, right ?

When is the abomination of desolation destroyed to end the Great Tribulation ? At the sixth seal ? No.

The abomination of desolation will be destroyed on the day of Jesus's return, as Jesus turns it to ashes, exposing Satan there on the temple mount.

View attachment 356989

Doug, have you used the phrase “pre-Trib rapture?”

This whole matter is a diversion from the irrefutable fact that Jesus said in Rev 11:2-3 that the trampling of the holy city occurs as the 2W start their prophesying just before the midpoint.

Douggg · Nov 12, 2024

keras said:
Jesus could; John 20:26
He can empower His people to do it too. The air, walls and roofs, all comprise of atoms.

That was after the resurrection. Jesus had a different body. Mary Magdalene in John 20:14 did not recognize him in his resurrected body.

Douggg · Nov 12, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Doug, have you used the phrase “pre-Trib rapture?”

Yes, I use the pre-trib phrase, but also note it means pre-70th week.

Jeffrey Bowden said:
This whole matter is a diversion from the irrefutable fact that Jesus said in Rev 11:2-3 that the trampling of the holy city occurs as the 2W start their prophesying just before the midpoint.

No, that is not what is said in Revelation 11:2-3
.
Revelation 11:1-2 is instructions from the angel to John about measuring the temple, but not to include measuring the outer court because it will be occupied by the Gentiles. In addition, the angel said the holy city (Jerusalem) will be trampled down by the Gentiles for forty two months.

Then in the third verse, the angel said, but this time speaking on behalf of God, "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. .

So the first two verses are the angel speaking to John, about the 42 months. Then, in the third verse, the angel is speaking on behalf of God, about the 1260 days that the two witnesses will prophesy.

Then, in the fourth verse, the angel is speaking again as himself, saying,... "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." And the angel continues to narrate.

In verse 11, John starts seeing a vision being played out of the two witness coming back to life, As the angel stops his narration. And it is John narrating for the rest of the chapter, what he saw and heard.

Jeffrey Bowden · Nov 12, 2024

Douggg said:
Yes, I use the pre-trib phrase, but also note it means pre-70th week.

No, that is not what is said in Revelation 11:2-3
.
Revelation 11:1-2 is instructions from the angel to John about measuring the temple, but not to include measuring the outer court because it will be occupied by the Gentiles. In addition, the angel said the holy city (Jerusalem) will be trampled down by the Gentiles for forty two months.

Then in the third verse, the angel said, but this time speaking on behalf of God, "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. .

So the first two verses are the angel speaking to John, about the 42 months. Then, in the third verse, the angel is speaking on behalf of God, about the 1260 days that the two witnesses will prophesy.

Then, in the fourth verse, the angel is speaking again as himself, saying,... "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." And the angel continues to narrate.

In verse 11, John starts seeing a vision being played out of the two witness coming back to life, As the angel stops his narration. And it is John narrating for the rest of the chapter, what he saw and heard.

Your quote from Rev 11:3: "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, ...

That is future tense: "will give". More future tense: "they shall prophesy."

The future tense means the 2W will start in the future, and that only aligns with Matt 24:14.

Your quote: "the holy city (Jerusalem) will be trampled ..." The words "will be" are more future tense. That trampling is what causes the fleeing in Matt 24:16.

The 2W start their prophesying shortly before the 2nd half. The future tense proves it.

Jeffrey Bowden · Nov 12, 2024

keras said:
Dougggg makes the basic error of placing the Sixth Seal at the Return.
That idea is proved wrong by Revelation 15:1, which proves the wrath of the Lord is over BEFORE Jesus Returns.

I'll let Doug speak for himself, but you are correct that Trib ends before the 2A. Matt 24:29-30 (ESV): “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Jeffrey Bowden · Nov 12, 2024

keras said:
Dougggg makes the basic error of placing the Sixth Seal at the Return.
That idea is proved wrong by Revelation 15:1, which proves the wrath of the Lord is over BEFORE Jesus Returns.

Keras, what is meant in Rev 11:18 (ESV) regarding "the time for the dead to be judged?"

18 The nations raged,
but your wrath came,
and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
and those who fear your name,
both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”

Douggg · Nov 12, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
The 2W start their prophesying shortly before the 2nd half. The future tense proves it.

John in Revelation 11 is cast into a future scene and is told to measure the temple complex, which includes the sanctuary building, the brazen altar, and the inner court where the priests will be conducting the temple ceremonies.

But not to measure the outer court of the temple complex, because it will be occupied by Gentiles, who are not part of Israel.

The future tense in verse three is not an indicator of when the two witnesses will be prophesying in relation to what half.

What is the indicator though is that after the two witnesses are killed, resurrected, and leave this world, the seventh angel sounds his trumpet.

The seven angel sounding announces what will be the third woe (Revelation 8:13) to the inhabiters of the earth.

In Revelation 12:12, it is revealed that the third woe will be Satan cast down to earth, having great wrath, knowing his time is short. The time, times, half time of Revelation 12:14.

So the 1260 days of the two witnesses first half, then the 7th angel sounds, then Satan's time/times/half time left of the second half.

Jeffrey Bowden · Nov 12, 2024

Douggg said:
John in Revelation 11 is cast into a future scene and is told to measure the temple complex, which includes the sanctuary building, the brazen altar, and the inner court where the priests will be conducting the temple ceremonies.

But not to measures the outer court of the temple complex, because it will be occupied by Gentiles, who are not part of Israel.

The future tense in verse three is not an indicator of when the two witnesses will be prophesying in relation to what half.

What is the indicator though is that after the two witnesses are killed, resurrected, and leave this world, the seventh angel sounds his trumpet.

The seven angel sounding announces what will be the third woe (Revelation 8:13) to the inhabiters of the earth.

In Revelation 12:12, it is revealed that the third woe will be Satan cast down to earth, having great wrath, knowing his time is short. The time, times, half time of Revelation 12:14.

So the 1260 days of the two witnesses first half, then the 7th angel sounds, then Satan's time/times/half time left of the second half.

Douggg said:
John in Revelation 11 is cast into a future scene and is told to measure the temple complex, which includes the sanctuary building, the brazen altar, and the inner court where the priests will be conducting the temple ceremonies.

But not to measure the outer court of the temple complex, because it will be occupied by Gentiles, who are not part of Israel.

The future tense in verse three is not an indicator of when the two witnesses will be prophesying in relation to what half.

What is the indicator though is that after the two witnesses are killed, resurrected, and leave this world, the seventh angel sounds his trumpet.

The seven angel sounding announces what will be the third woe (Revelation 8:13) to the inhabiters of the earth.

In Revelation 12:12, it is revealed that the third woe will be Satan cast down to earth, having great wrath, knowing his time is short. The time, times, half time of Revelation 12:14.

So the 1260 days of the two witnesses first half, then the 7th angel sounds, then Satan's time/times/half time left of the second half.

Doug, Rev 10 is an interlude. That interlude carries forward into Rev 11 to verse 13. If you connect the dots, Rev 9 ends just before Rev 11:14. Do you see that?

Douggg · Nov 12, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Doug, Rev 10 is an interlude. That interlude carries forward into Rev 11 to verse 13. If you connect the dots, Rev 9 ends just before Rev 11:14. Do you see that?

Revelation 11:14 is stating that John had already been shown what the first two woes will be. And that it will quickly be revealed what the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth will be when the seventh angel sounds.

The second woe, the killing of a third of mankind by the army numbering 200,000,000, will take place at the very end of the seven years. That is why there is the interlude. Because the third woe encapsulates the time (the time,times, half time) that first and second woes will fit into.

Jeffrey Bowden · Nov 12, 2024

Douggg said:
Revelation 11:14 is stating that John had already been shown what the first two woes will be. And that it will quickly be revealed what the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth will be when the seventh angel sounds.

The second woe, the killing of a third of mankind by the army numbering 200,000,000, will take place at the very end of the seven years. That is why there is the interlude. Because the third woe encapsulates the time (the time,times, half time) that first and second woes will fit into.

View attachment 357029

Doug, you're not connecting the dots. Rev 8 rolls right into Rev 9. But, after the 6th trumpet, there's an interlude. That interlude continues to Rev 11:13. What happens between the 6th and 7th trumpets is foreign to the trumpets. It's just like Rev 6 through Rev 8. Rev 7 and Rev 8 are interludes. An interlude is non-sequitur interruption, with no logical connection to what is before it or after it. That's an interlude. The same is true of Rev 10 to Rev 11:13.

To claim that the 3rd woe will occur at the end of the Trib, is nonsense.

Here's proof. The seven seals occur, then the seven trumpets, then the seven bowls. This sequence is not broken, and you claim it's broken to say the 3rd woe is at the end of the Trib. That borders on calling John a liar.

Douggg · Nov 12, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
To claim that the 3rd woe will occur at the end of the Trib, is nonsense.

I don't know what you mean by "at the end of".

The 3rd woe spans a time,times,half time - roughly 3 1/2 years - the second half of the 70th week.

Jeffrey Bowden · Nov 13, 2024

Douggg said:
I don't know what you mean by "at the end of".

The 3rd woe spans a time,times,half time - roughly 3 1/2 years - the second half of the 70th week.

View attachment 357041

I’m sick of your false timelines. All of the 21 judgments of God’s wrath are fulfilled in order, and the only wrathful judgments in the 2nd half are the bowls.

Read your Bible, please, instead of false timelines. You’re not accepting the truth of “interludes.” Does Rev 9 have anything to do with Rev 10? Does Rev 11 have anything to do with Rev 10? Rev 10 is an interlude — verses or a chapter out of context with surrounding verses or chapters.

Rev 9 was textually interrupted by Rev 10. That means the 7th trumpet will be fulfilled like the prior six trumpets in Rev 8 and Rev 9. The 7th trumpet does not occur in Rev 11. It only appears there because of the interlude by Rev 10.

The timeline I showed you was written by Dr. Andy Woods, a preeminent Bible scholar. He is well aware of the interludes in Rev. His timeline is 100% accurate.

Douggg · Nov 13, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
The timeline I showed you was written by Dr. Andy Woods, a preeminent Bible scholar. He is well aware of the interludes in Rev. His timeline is 100% accurate.

I did an internet search on Dr. Andy Woods (I was already aware that he is a commentator, but I do not find his commentary useful to follow him) and found a pdf which you copied his chart from - and that it was not actually you who made it.

His timeline that you posted is not detailed and leaves out critical labeling to be understandable.

Since you are a follower of his work, what does he say is the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth ?

When does he say that the two witnesses testify - first half or second half ?

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Read your Bible, please, instead of false timelines. You’re not accepting the truth of “interludes.” Does Rev 9 have anything to do with Rev 10? Does Rev 11 have anything to do with Rev 10? Rev 10 is an interlude — verses or a chapter out of context with surrounding verses or chapters.

All of the timeline charts and graphics that I post are made by me.

Douggg · Nov 13, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
The timeline I showed you was written by Dr. Andy Woods, a preeminent Bible scholar. He is well aware of the interludes in Rev. His timeline is 100% accurate.

Okay, let's look at his timeline chart. He shows the 7trumpet judgments (his words) as being in the first half.

The seventh trumpet announces the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth (Revelation 8:13). Does the third woe take place in the first half ? What is the third woe according to Dr. Andy Woods ?

Jeffrey Bowden · Nov 13, 2024

Douggg said:
Okay, let's look at his timeline chart. He shows the 7trumpet judgments (his words) as being in the first half.

The seventh trumpet announces the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth (Revelation 8:13). Does the third woe take place in the first half ? What is the third woe according to Dr. Andy Woods ?

View attachment 357052

Doug, please note the interlude (an inapplicable chapter to the chapter preceding or following anther chapter) from Rev 10. It's inserted between Rev 9 and Rev 11, distorting the timing of the 3rd woe and the 7th trumpet. Therefore, the 3rd woe and the 7th trumpet occur in Rev 9, the first half.

Douggg · Nov 13, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Doug, please note the interlude (an inapplicable chapter to the chapter preceding or following anther chapter) from Rev 10. It's inserted between Rev 9 and Rev 11, distorting the timing of the 3rd woe and the 7th trumpet. Therefore, the 3rd woe and the 7th trumpet occur in Rev 9, the first half.

What does Dr Andy Woods say is the third woe ?

Douggg · Nov 13, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Doug, please note the interlude (an inapplicable chapter to the chapter preceding or following anther chapter) from Rev 10. It's inserted between Rev 9 and Rev 11, distorting the timing of the 3rd woe and the 7th trumpet. Therefore, the 3rd woe and the 7th trumpet occur in Rev 9, the first half.

I listened to an audio by Dr Andy Woods on Revelation, and concerning the 6th trumpet of the army of 200,000,000 that kills a third of mankind, Dr Andy Woods says - as it is marching its way to Armageddon.

Armageddon is at the very end of the 7 years.

On his chart, Dr Andy Woods shows the seven trumpets (1,2,3,4,5,6,7) as being the first half. So, he conflicts his chart, by saying the 6th trumpet takes place on the way to Armageddon, a near-the-end of the 7 years event in the second half.

Also Dr Andy Woods makes a huge, huge mistake in thinking just because the group of 7 trumpets are chronologically in order, and that the group of 7 vials are chronologically in order - that he claims the group of seals precedes both. Which obviously is not possible when considering the sixth seal (corresponding to Matthew 24:29) is near the very end of the 7 years.

Douggg · Nov 13, 2024

Trumpet 7, the third woe, is Satan cast down earth having great wrath, woe to the inhabiters to the earth and sea (Revelation 12:12).

The three woe trumpets (5, 6, 7) are shown on my chart below. The time, times, half time of the third woe is basically the second half of the 7 years.

If you will notice that....

trumpet 2 plague is later intensified by vial of God's wrath 2

trumpet 3 plague is later intensified by vial of God's wrath 3

trumpet 4 plague is later intensified by vial of God's wrath 5

Also...

trumpet 6 (woe 2) a third of mankind killed on the way to Armageddon lines up with vial 6 the Euphrates dried up and armies assemble at Armageddon.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 13, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Keras, what is meant in Rev 11:18 (ESV) regarding "the time for the dead to be judged?"

18 The nations raged,
but your wrath came,
and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
and those who fear your name,
both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”

It means it will be time for the following to occur at that point:

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

If that doesn't describe the time of the dead being judged then I don't know what does.

Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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