Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

Douggg · Nov 10, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Rev 11:15 sounds the 7th trumpet. When does that verse occu?

The trumpets are sounded in the first half.

When will you ever thank me for clarifying — with Scripture — the falsehoods in your timelines?

The 7th trumpet sounds shorty after day 1263 1/2 (on day 1263 1/2 the two witnesses ascend to heaven) on the timeline. The 7th trumpet sounding begins the third woe. The third woe is Satan cast down to earth having a time, times, half time left.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Everything is shown on this chart....

Jeffrey Bowden · Nov 10, 2024

Douggg said:
The 7th trumpet sounds shorty after day 1263 1/2 (on day 1263 1/2 the two witnesses ascend to heaven) on the timeline. The 7th trumpet sounding begins the third woe. The third woe is Satan cast down to earth having a time, times, half time left.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Everything is shown on this chart....

View attachment 356915

That timeline is wrong. Scripture refutes it.

I have already proven that the beast that kills the 2W rises out of the abyss in Rev 17:8 (ESV): The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

The "go to destruction" part of Rev 17:8 is to proceed to Armageddon, where, along the way, the 2W are hunted down and killed. The beast (AC) then proceeds to Armageddon, to destruction. The AC (beast) and the false prophet go to destruction in Rev 19:20 (ESV): And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

If you disagree, prove me wrong by finding a beast that rises out an abyss in the first half.

Douggg · Nov 10, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
The "go to destruction" part of Rev 17:8 is to proceed to Armageddon, where, along the way, the 2W are hunted down and killed.

The two witnesses are not "hunted down". The person after becoming the beast will make war on the two witnesses, when the abomination of desolation is setup on the temple mount on day 1185 on the timeline.

When the abomination of desolation is setup on the temple mount, the two witnesses battle the beast as the Jews flee to the mountains. The beast finally is able to overcome the two witnesses and kills them on day 1260.

The Jews will know to flee to the mountains because the two witnesses will have been prophesying in the first half of what is to come concerning their perceived messiah, and what to do.

That the two witnesses testify in the first half is proved by the 1260 days in Revelation 11:3 as being the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 of the woman (Israel) being fed the Word of God.

first half
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

in the second half
3 1/2 days - Revelation 11:11
42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5
time, times, half time - Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7

Jeffrey Bowden · Nov 10, 2024

Douggg said:
The two witnesses are not "hunted down". The person after becoming the beast will make war on the two witnesses, when the abomination of desolation is setup on the temple mount on day 1185 on the timeline.

When the abomination of desolation is setup on the temple mount, the two witnesses battle the beast as the Jews flee to the mountains. The beast finally is able to overcome the two witnesses and kills them on day 1260.

The Jews will know to flee to the mountains because the two witnesses will have been prophesying in the first half of what is to come concerning their perceived messiah, and what to do.

That the two witnesses testify in the first half is proved by the 1260 days in Revelation 11:3 as being the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 of the woman (Israel) being fed the Word of God.

first half
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

in the second half
3 1/2 days - Revelation 11:11
42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5
time, times, half time - Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7

View attachment 356920

That timeline is erroneous because it omits how the 2W are killed. They are killed by a beast first rising out of an abyss/bottomless pit. You failed to spot that omission in this erroneous timeline. You will not see any verse in the first half proving a beast rising out of an abyss/bottomless pit.

You will only find the beast who kills the 2W deeply within the second half of the Trib. The verse that proves that is Rev 17:8 (ESV): The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

Again, that beast goes to destruction in Armageddon, per Rev 19:20. It kills the 2W on its way to Armageddon.

Doug, I am trying to help you with Scriptures that refute your claims. I am trying to help you see the truth, which is dreadfully lacking in your timeline.

Jeffrey Bowden · Nov 10, 2024

Douggg said:
The two witnesses are not "hunted down". The person after becoming the beast will make war on the two witnesses, when the abomination of desolation is setup on the temple mount on day 1185 on the timeline.

When the abomination of desolation is setup on the temple mount, the two witnesses battle the beast as the Jews flee to the mountains. The beast finally is able to overcome the two witnesses and kills them on day 1260.

The Jews will know to flee to the mountains because the two witnesses will have been prophesying in the first half of what is to come concerning their perceived messiah, and what to do.

That the two witnesses testify in the first half is proved by the 1260 days in Revelation 11:3 as being the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 of the woman (Israel) being fed the Word of God.

first half
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

in the second half
3 1/2 days - Revelation 11:11
42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5
time, times, half time - Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7

View attachment 356920

Doug, here is a simple and accurate timeline related to the 21 judgments of God's wrath in the Trib:

Douggg · Nov 10, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
That timeline is erroneous because it omits how the 2W are killed.

"how" ? Do you mean by what method ? The bible does not say.

Jeffrey Bowden said:
They are killed by a beast first rising out of an abyss/bottomless pit. You failed to spot that omission in this erroneous timeline. You will not see any verse in the first half proving a beast rising out of an abyss/bottomless pit.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

It is necessary to include that explanation on the time line.

But here are two graphics I made about that possession.

Douggg · Nov 10, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Doug, here is a simple and accurate timeline related to the 21 judgments of God's wrath in the Trib:

View attachment 356930

What you are showing is not a timeline - because no time frames are noted. Put some timeframes, and day numbers on the chart.

The seven seals are not judgments. The seals are locks on the book that Jesus opened.

The great tribulation lasts 1335 days, not 1260 days.

What is the man in the center of the graphic supposed to represent ? Why don't you label him ?

The seven trumpet actions are not called judgments. In Revelation 9:20 the term used is "plagues". Just as in Revelation 11:6, the actions by the two witnesses are called "plagues".

keras · Nov 11, 2024

Douggg said:
Jeffrey, keras has apparently not read Philippians3:20-21.

I read every verse in the Bible. That verse does not, in any way say: people will go to live in heaven. Or will be made immortal before the final Judgment, to come after the Millennium.
Phill 3:20-21 is a simple statement of fact:- that the names of the faithful Christian peoples are Written in the Book of Life. As the ancient God believers were. Malachi 3:16-17

I laugh when those who have allowed themselves to be deceived by the idea of a rapture to heaven, argue among themselves.
They show up how foolish and impossible such a thing is.

keras · Nov 11, 2024

Douggg said:
keras, you believe that the rapture is to another place on earth, correct ? And does not include the changing of our bodies into eternal life everlasting bodies, correct ?

So, lets say the rapture takes place - and you are not outside, but inside in a building - how then, in your natural body are you going to pass through the walls of that building ?

It is not possible. There has to be a change from the natural body to the eternal life everlasting bodies.

But a transportation thru the atmosphere is possible, Philip did it; Acts 8:39
Matthew 24:31 is plainly stated: Jesus will send His angels to gather the faithful Christians from wherever they are now, around the world: to where He will be; in Jerusalem.

It is you who must explain how and why anyone becomes immortal before the final Judgment and the Book of Life is opened.

Jeffrey Bowden · Nov 11, 2024

Douggg said:
"how" ? Do you mean by what method ? The bible does not say.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

It is necessary to include that explanation on the time line.

But here are two graphics I made about that possession.

View attachment 356931

View attachment 356932

Rev 11:3 (ESV): And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Per Rev 11:3, do you understand that the 2W are granted authority just before the midpoint? Do you therefore understand that they start their mission just before the midpoint? It is my contention that they start their mission upon Matt 24:14 (ESV): And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Therefore, they are killed late in the second half by the beast that arises from the bottomless pit in Rev 17:8, which would fulfill the 2W's 1,260 days that will start just before the midpoint.

Jeffrey Bowden · Nov 11, 2024

Douggg said:
What you are showing is not a timeline - because no time frames are noted. Put some timeframes, and day numbers on the chart.

The seven seals are not judgments. The seals are locks on the book that Jesus opened.

The great tribulation lasts 1335 days, hot 1260 days.

What is the man in the center of the graphic supposed to represent ? Why don't you label him ?

The seven trumpet actions are not called judgments. In Revelation 9:20 the term used is "plagues". Just as in Revelation 11:6, the actions by the two witnesses are called "plagues".

Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

The Trib is a 7-year trial whereby God will finish His discipline of Israel and finalize His judgment of the unbelieving world. It indeed is about judgment, 21 judgments of God's wrath: seven seals, seven trumpets and seven bowls.

You are mistaken about the seal judgments. They are devastating in their effects as they kill over 25% of the world's population through very brutal means: war, famine, disease and wild beasts.

The timeline for the 21 judgements of God's wrath in the Trib are shown on that very simple and accurate timeline. The chapters for each of the judgments are cited. For instance, if you go to Rev 8, the trumpet judgments are seen to start immediately after the seal judgments, confirming that they occur in the first half.

Douggg · Nov 11, 2024

keras said:
I read every verse in the Bible. That verse does not, in any way say: people will go to live in heaven. Or will be made immortal before the final Judgment, to come after the Millennium.
Phill 3:20-21 is a simple statement of fact:- that the names of the faithful Christian peoples are Written in the Book of Life. As the ancient God believers were. Malachi 3:16-17

I laugh when those who have allowed themselves to be deceived by the idea of a rapture to heaven, argue among themselves.
They show up how foolish and impossible such a thing is.

keras, read my post #205.

Douggg · Nov 11, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Per Rev 11:3, do you understand that the 2W are granted authority just before the midpoint? Do you therefore understand that they start their mission just before the midpoint?

The 1260 days of the two witnesses is the first half of the 7 years.

In your view, you have the two witnesses being killed at the very end of the 7 years.

Now I want to think about this a little bit - at the end of the 7 years, the condition of the world will be people dying right and left, all of the green grass burnt up, a third of the trees, waters poisoned, the armies of the world preparing to make their last stand, terrified about having to face Jesus and his armies of heaven.

And in that setting - you are going to have the people of the word exchanging presents celebrating the deaths of the two witnesses ?

First of all, communications, like TV and internet, will be out, so worldwide, the people still alive will not even know that the two witnesses have been killed.

Revelation 11:
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Your timing two witnesses being killed is wrong.

At the midpoint of the seven years, the worldwide communications and internet will still be intact. And on TV and internet, the nations will be able to see the two witnesses' bodies laying dead in the streets.

Douggg · Nov 11, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Doug, here is a simple and accurate timeline related to the 21 judgments of God's wrath in the Trib:

View attachment 356930

Who is the man figure in the middle with outstretched arms ?

Jeffrey Bowden · Nov 11, 2024

Douggg said:
The 1260 days of the two witnesses is the first half of the 7 years.

In your view, you have the two witnesses being killed at the very end of the 7 years.

Now I want to think about this a little bit - at the end of the 7 years, the condition of the world will be people dying right and left, all of the green grass burnt up, a third of the trees, waters poisoned, the armies of the world preparing to make their last stand, terrified about having to face Jesus and his armies of heaven.

And in that setting - you are going to have the people of the word exchanging presents celebrating the deaths of the two witnesses ?

First of all, communications, like TV and internet, will be out, so worldwide, the people still alive will not even know that the two witnesses have been killed.

Revelation 11:
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Your timing two witnesses being killed is wrong.

At the midpoint of the seven years, the worldwide communications and internet will still be intact. And on TV and internet, the nations will be able to see the two witnesses' bodies laying dead in the streets.

Doug, what about 42 months? What about time, times and a half? Doug, every use of those timeframes, including 1,260 days, has its context in the second half. Every one. If you look up all of them, they are only in verses that pertain to the second half. Every one.

The 2W are authorized shortly before the second half (Rev 11:3). Their 1,260 days are contextually in the second half. Matt 24:14 launches their crusade.

Jeffrey Bowden · Nov 11, 2024

Douggg said:
Who is the man figure in the middle with outstretched arms ?

AC, at the midpoint: Matt 24:15.

Jeffrey Bowden · Nov 11, 2024

Douggg said:
The 1260 days of the two witnesses is the first half of the 7 years.

In your view, you have the two witnesses being killed at the very end of the 7 years.

Now I want to think about this a little bit - at the end of the 7 years, the condition of the world will be people dying right and left, all of the green grass burnt up, a third of the trees, waters poisoned, the armies of the world preparing to make their last stand, terrified about having to face Jesus and his armies of heaven.

And in that setting - you are going to have the people of the word exchanging presents celebrating the deaths of the two witnesses ?

First of all, communications, like TV and internet, will be out, so worldwide, the people still alive will not even know that the two witnesses have been killed.

Revelation 11:
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Your timing two witnesses being killed is wrong.

At the midpoint of the seven years, the worldwide communications and internet will still be intact. And on TV and internet, the nations will be able to see the two witnesses' bodies laying dead in the streets.

Doug, all the uses of those time frames ONLY apply to the second half.

Also, the beast that rises out of the bottomless pit, is only found deeply into the second half: Rev 17:8. That is the beast that will kill the 2W. That occurs near the end of the second half.

Douggg · Nov 11, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Doug, what about 42 months? What about time, times and a half? Doug, every use of those timeframes, including 1,260 days, has its context in the second half. Every one. If you look up all of them, they are only in verses that pertain to the second half. Every one.

No, every one of the timeframes do not pertain to the second half.

In Revelation 12:6 is the 1260 days (first half)
then in Revelation 12:7-9, a war in (the second) heaven and Satan and his angels cast down to earth
then in Revelation 12:14, Satan attempts to destroy the woman (Israel), for a time, times, half time (the second half)

I broke down all the time frames in Revelation in a previous post.

first half
1260 days - Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

in the second half
3 1/2 days - Revelation 11:11
42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5
time, times, half time - Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7

Douggg · Nov 11, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
AC, at the midpoint: Matt 24:15.

Then you should label your chart.

What is the purpose of showing the Antichrist on the chart ? The abomination of desolation is not the AC person, but a statue image of him in the standing position.. Label it the AoD instead.

Matthew 24:15 is about the abomination of desolation in the holy place, and Jesus referenced what is written Daniel.

In Daniel 12;11, the abomination of desolation will be "set up". The abomination of desolation will be a statue image of the beast-king in a standing position, "set up" on the temple mount.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

When the statue image is "set up" on the temple mount, the Jews will begin fleeing to the mountains.

Douggg · Nov 11, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Doug, all the uses of those time frames ONLY apply to the second half.

Also, the 1260 days of the two witnesses being in the first half is that after they ascend to heaven leaving this earth, the 7th angel sounds his trumpet.

The 7th angel sounding announces the third woe. The third woe is in Revelation 12:12, of Satan having great wrath knowing that he has but a short time - the time, times, half time of Revelation 12:14.

1260 days of the two witnesses.
3 /12 days later, they ascend to heaven
then the 7 angel sounds.
then the third woe, Satan cast down to earth, having great wrath, woes to the inhabiters of the earth and sea, Revelation 12:12

Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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