Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?

[Douggg]

Not in my Bible. What version are you reading from?

You took a portion of my comment out of context, which alters the meaning of what I wrote.

John is very specific about what makes a person an antichrist. (1 John 2:18; 1 John 2:22; 1 John 4:3; 2 John 1:7). The King of Israel is conspicuously absent.

This is like pulling hen's teeth. A person has to know the concept of "the Christ" before they can grasp the meaning of "Antichrist".

"the Christ" pertains to being the promised King of Israel descended from King David.

 

[BABerean2]

The ten commandments are no longer in effect? Do you know what is the reasoning behind the term "Law of Moses" ? It is because the children of Israel received the Law, the Torah, through Moses *. (* I was informed this by the Jews themselves at MessiahTruth countermissionary site).

Deuteronomy 31:9-13 was a requirement that Moses set up for all future leaders of Israel to do. It does not contradict with anything in the New Covenant. It is remembrance requirement regarding the promised land that the children of Israel were about to go over the Jordan and possess.

Nobody alive today has ever broken the 4th commandment, based on the scripture found below.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

.

 

[ebedmelech]

I'll just say this:

Daniel 9:24 states everything that is to be accomplished in the 70 weeks. Not one thing in that list has failed to happen. For that reason, there can be no gap in the seventy weeks...NONE.

 

[jgr]

I read many different commentators from J Vernon McGee to Arthur Pink and have not found any mainstream commentators who do not see and understand that this passage after the Messiah is cutoff is about anti-Christ whose times and actions begins to be laid out in much greater detail.

Therein lies the problem. You will notice that both of those commentators, and doubtless any others whom you've referenced, are all post-18th-century. They do not reflect historical Christian prophetic understanding.

Instead, consider one of the earliest defenders of the faith:

Clement of Alexandria (150 - 215 AD)

From the captivity at Babylon, which took place in the time of Jeremiah the prophet, was fulfilled what was spoken by Daniel the prophet as follows: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to seal sins, and to wipe out and make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. Know therefore, and understand, that from the going forth of the word commanding an answer to be given, and Jerusalem to be built, to Christ the Prince, are seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; and the street shall be again built, and the wall; and the times shall be expended. And after the sixty-two weeks the anointing shall be overthrown, and judgment shall not be in him; and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary along with the coming Prince. And they shall be destroyed in a flood, and to the end of the war shall be cut off by: desolations. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the middle of the week the sacrifice and oblation shall be taken away; and in the holy place shall be the abomination of desolations, and until the consummation of time shall the consummation be assigned for desolation. And in the midst of the week shall he make the incense of sacrifice cease, and of the wing of destruction, even till the consummation, like the destruction of the oblation." That the temple accordingly was built in seven weeks, is evident; for it is written in Esdras. And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfilment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judaea was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, "the Holy of Holies," having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father. In those "sixty and two weeks," as the prophet said, and "in the one week," was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said.

There is no reference to antichrist in Clement's explication, in which he recognizes that the Daniel 9 passage was completely fulfilled historically.

You will in fact find that, with the possible exception of Irenaeus, no pre-19th-century scholar, apologist, or commentator who expounded upon the Daniel 9 passage ever believed that a far distant future antichrist is the prince of Daniel 9:26.

The dispensational futurism of McGee, Pink, and all who espouse the same is a manifestation of prophetic modernism.

 

[ebedmelech]

The dispensational futurism of McGee, Pink, and all who espouse the same is a manifestation of prophetic modernism.

I do believe that those are Christian men. Even today...though I think their eschatology is off. I listened to J Vernon McGee for like 8 years...even as I began to really question his eschatology. Also listened Charles Stanley and John MacArthur daily too. I only read a few things from Pink. They all teach the gap in Daniel's 70 weeks.

It was around 1989-90, when I read the bible through chronologically. I was in the Navy, and went on cruise aboard USS John F Kennedy. It may as well had been a "Christian cruise" as we visited Izmir Turkey where I went to Ephesus, Antalya Turkey where I visited Perga. We also went Alexandria, Egypt...and Haifa Israel. Having not been a Christian long...I know it was God's timing.

It was then, through reading and studying scripture chronologically, apart from anyone's teaching, but just trusting the Holy Spirit, that my eyes opened to question things I heard and was being taught. That was even before I knew of full or partial preterism, historicism or amillennialism.

 

[BABerean2]

I do believe that those are Christian men. Even today...though I think their eschatology is off. I listened to J Vernon McGee for like 8 years...even as I began to really question his eschatology. Also listened Charles Stanley and John MacArthur daily too. I only read a few things from Pink. They all teach the gap in Daniel's 70 weeks.

Sadly, most of those teaching on Christian television are Dispensationalists.

The one exception is Pastor James Merritt from Georgia.

He was the first president of the Southern Baptists, during my lifetime, who did not believe in the pretrib doctrine.

However, he seems to avoid the topic of eschatology.

.

 

[Vicky gould]

Therein lies the problem. You will notice that both of those commentators, and doubtless any others whom you've referenced, are all post-18th-century. They do not reflect historical Christian prophetic understanding.

Instead, consider one of the earliest defenders of the faith:

Clement of Alexandria (150 - 215 AD)

From the captivity at Babylon, which took place in the time of Jeremiah the prophet, was fulfilled what was spoken by Daniel the prophet as follows: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to seal sins, and to wipe out and make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. Know therefore, and understand, that from the going forth of the word commanding an answer to be given, and Jerusalem to be built, to Christ the Prince, are seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; and the street shall be again built, and the wall; and the times shall be expended. And after the sixty-two weeks the anointing shall be overthrown, and judgment shall not be in him; and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary along with the coming Prince. And they shall be destroyed in a flood, and to the end of the war shall be cut off by: desolations. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the middle of the week the sacrifice and oblation shall be taken away; and in the holy place shall be the abomination of desolations, and until the consummation of time shall the consummation be assigned for desolation. And in the midst of the week shall he make the incense of sacrifice cease, and of the wing of destruction, even till the consummation, like the destruction of the oblation." That the temple accordingly was built in seven weeks, is evident; for it is written in Esdras. And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfilment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judaea was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, "the Holy of Holies," having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father. In those "sixty and two weeks," as the prophet said, and "in the one week," was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said.

There is no reference to antichrist in Clement's explication, in which he recognizes that the Daniel 9 passage was completely fulfilled historically.

You will in fact find that, with the possible exception of Irenaeus, no pre-19th-century scholar, apologist, or commentator who expounded upon the Daniel 9 passage ever believed that a far distant future antichrist is the prince of Daniel 9:26.

The dispensational futurism of McGee, Pink, and all who espouse the same is a manifestation of prophetic modernism.

and with that fulfillment something else must have happened according to no man but according to the Holy Spirit, the Millennial Reign of Christ. Clement may have forgotten that or overlooked it. Oh and the nation of Israel has accepted Christ and all their sins and transgressions have ceased.

 

[jgr]

and with that fulfillment something else must have happened according to no man but according to the Holy Spirit, the Millennial Reign of Christ. Clement may have forgotten that or overlooked it. Oh and the nation of Israel has accepted Christ and all their sins and transgressions have ceased.

Whatever Clement may or may not have believed about those themes, it is clear that he saw no antichrist in the Daniel 9 passage.

 

[Vicky gould]

Whatever Clement may or may not have believed about those themes, it is clear that he saw no antichrist in the Daniel 9 passage.

I am not meant to knock others and do not wish to do so. Clement and other Church fathers had some beliefs that salvation comes from faith plus works and without works it is impossible to be saved. The Roman Catholic Church who I have the utmost respect for is still entangled by the faith plus works doctrine. Scripture is a progressive revelation and what might not have been understood in Clements day may not be that which is understood in todays unfolding teaching. Maybe the best thing we can do is rejoice that we will both one day be dancing in praise in New Jerusalem and agree to disagree.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Vicky gould said: ↑
I read many different commentators from J Vernon McGee to Arthur Pink and have not found any mainstream commentators who do not see and understand that this passage after the Messiah is cutoff is about anti-Christ whose times and actions begins to be laid out in much greater detail.

Therein lies the problem. You will notice that both of those commentators, and doubtless any others whom you've referenced, are all post-18th-century. They do not reflect historical Christian prophetic understanding.
Instead, consider one of the earliest defenders of the faith:
Clement of Alexandria (150 - 215 AD)

Hello jgr......Agree.
I am now delving into early centuries Christian commentators.
Eusebius comes to mine........
I view all of the 70 weeks as fulfilled, also most[if not all] of the Olivet Discourse and Revelation in regards to the fall of 1st century Jerusalem, it's OC Temple and Priesthood[as shown in Revelation 18/19].

Eusebius of Caesarea: Demonstratio Evangelica. Tr. W.J. Ferrar (1920) | Church History
Early Christian History



THE PROOF OF THE GOSPEL BEING THE DEMONSTRATIO EVANGELICA
OF

EUSEBIUS OF CAESAREA
(A.D. 312)
PERHAPS THE BOOK THAT MOST INFLUENCED THE CONVERSION OF CONSTANTINE AND THE ROMAN EMPIRE TO CHRISTIANITY
313 - The Year of Constantine's Cooperation

"The Holy Scriptures foretell that there will be unmistakable signs of the Coming of Christ.

Now there were among the Hebrews three outstanding offices of dignity, which made the nation famous, firstly the kingship, secondly that of prophet, and lastly the high priesthood.
The prophecies said that the abolition and complete destruction of all these three together would be the sign of the (b) presence of the Christ.
And that the proofs that the times had come, would lie in the ceasing of the Mosaic worship, the desolation of Jerusalem and its Temple, and the subjection of the whole Jewish race to its enemies.

The holy oracles foretold that all these changes, which had (c) not been made in the days of the prophets of old, would take place at the coming of the Christ, which I will presently shew to have been fulfilled as never before in accordance with the predictions."
================================
Apocalypse Commentaries Study Archive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

James Glasgow: The Apocalypse Translated and Expounded (1872) - Early Dating Advocate, Sets at AD 51.
"Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks presents an irrefragable proof that the whole of the New Testament, the Apocalypse included, must have been written before the fall of Jerusalem and the end of the Jewish kingdom." "When did the seventy weeks end ? No date later than that of the fall of Jerusalem (a.d. 70) can with any truth or plausibility be supposed, for these weeks were "determined on the holy city." But many say they ended earlier, — at the death of Christ. Against this, however, in the above, and some other particulars, there lie weighty objections, as Scaliger, Hales, and others have shown. Let us look at the objects which were to be accomplished before these weeks ran out. " // "Many of the visions and words of the prophets are still receiving fulfilment ; and not until the end of the gospel age is all prophecy fulfilled. Some were fulfilled at the death of Christ, some in the fall of the city and dispersion of the people, and some in the progressive influx of the Gentiles ; while many regarding Gentiles and outcast Jews are yet to pass into fulfilment."
========================================
Jewish and Rome sources

Jewish Sources: Talmud and Historians Study Archive



The Generation of the Messiah | The Ninth of Ab | Daniel's Weeks Prophecy | The Heavenly Temple | The Destruction of the Temple | New Heavens and Earth | Symbols for Rome

Significance of Forty Year Period
c.f. - A.D. 30 (Death of Christ) to A.D.70 (Fall of Jerusalem)

DANIEL'S WEEKS PROPHECY

Aquila
"On thy people, and on thy sacred city.. For ending disobedience, and for completing transgression. For the fulfilling of their disobedience and the completion of their sin, For the propitiation of their transgression, For the bringing in of everlasting righteousness, And for fulfilling the vision and the prophet. For the anointing of the most consecrated,"
(Quoted in Demonstratio Evangelica (Proof of the Gospel) ; BOOK VIII)
ON AQUILA

Translator of the canonical Scriptures from Hebrew into Greek. He was by birth a Gentile from Pontus, and is said by Epiphanius to have been a connection by marriage of the emperor Hadrian and to have been appointed by him about the year 128 to an office concerned with the rebuilding of Jerusalem as "Ælia Capitolina." At some unknown age he joined the Christians, but afterward left them and became a proselyte to Judaism. According to Jerome he was a disciple of Rabbi Akiba. The Talmud states that he finished his translations under the influence of R. Akiba and that his other teachers were Eliezer ben Hyrcanus and Joshua ben Hananiah. It is certain, however, that Aquila's translation had appeared before the publication of Irenæus' "Adversus Hæreses"; i.e., before 177.

The work seems to have been entirely successful as regards the purpose for which it was intended (Jerome speaks of a second edition which embodied corrections by the author), and it was read by the Greek-speaking Jews even in the time of Justinian (Novella, 146). It was used intelligently and respectfully by great Christian scholars like Origen and Jerome, while controversialists of less merit and learning, such as the author of the "Dialogue of Timothy and Aquila" (published in 1898 by F. C. Conybeare), found it worth their while to accuse Aquila of anti-Christian bias, and to remind their Jewish adversaries of the superior antiquity of the Septuagint. But no manuscript until quite recently was known to have survived, and our acquaintance with the work came from the scattered fragments of Origen's "Hexapla." The reason of this is to be found in the Mohammedan conquests; the need of a Greek version for Jews disappeared when Greek ceased to be the lingua franca of Egypt and the Levant.

Josephus
"A sufficient proof of this is afforded by the passage, Josephus Arch. 10:1 l, 7, 'Daniel predicted also the Roman supremacy, and that our country should be desolated by them.'

Rabbi Judah (Main Compiler of the Talmud)
"These times were over long ago" (Regarding Daniel's prophecy - Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin 98b and 97a)

Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi
"I have examined and searched all the Holy Scriptures and have not found the time for the coming of Messiah clearly fixed, except in the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written in the 9th chapter of the prophecy of Daniel."
=======================================

 

[jgr]

.

 

[jgr]

Clement and other Church fathers had some beliefs that salvation comes from faith plus works and without works it is impossible to be saved.

Re. Clement, that may well be true, but you would need to substantiate it with actual quotes from his writings.

The Roman Catholic Church who I have the utmost respect for is still entangled by the faith plus works doctrine.

Roman Catholicism did not begin to appear in identifiable form until about two centuries after Clement, and its descent into apostasy did not begin to appear until several centuries after that.

Scripture is a progressive revelation and what might not have been understood in Clements day may not be that which is understood in todays unfolding teaching.

The claim of new truth which no one else possesses, and which is not found in the orthodoxy of the historical true Christian Church, is a classic characteristic of a cult.

Jude 3 NASB
Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.

Maybe the best thing we can do is rejoice that we will both one day be dancing in praise in New Jerusalem and agree to disagree.

Amen. We can certainly disagree without being disagreeable.

 

[jgr]

Hello jgr......Agree.
I am now delving into early centuries Christian commentators.
Eusebius comes to mine........
I view all of the 70 weeks as fulfilled, also most[if not all] of the Olivet Discourse and Revelation in regards to the fall of 1st century Jerusalem, it's OC Temple and Priesthood[as shown in Revelation 18/19].

Eusebius of Caesarea: Demonstratio Evangelica. Tr. W.J. Ferrar (1920) | Church History
Early Christian History



THE PROOF OF THE GOSPEL BEING THE DEMONSTRATIO EVANGELICA
OF

EUSEBIUS OF CAESAREA
(A.D. 312)
PERHAPS THE BOOK THAT MOST INFLUENCED THE CONVERSION OF CONSTANTINE AND THE ROMAN EMPIRE TO CHRISTIANITY
313 - The Year of Constantine's Cooperation

"The Holy Scriptures foretell that there will be unmistakable signs of the Coming of Christ.

Now there were among the Hebrews three outstanding offices of dignity, which made the nation famous, firstly the kingship, secondly that of prophet, and lastly the high priesthood.
The prophecies said that the abolition and complete destruction of all these three together would be the sign of the (b) presence of the Christ.
And that the proofs that the times had come, would lie in the ceasing of the Mosaic worship, the desolation of Jerusalem and its Temple, and the subjection of the whole Jewish race to its enemies.

The holy oracles foretold that all these changes, which had (c) not been made in the days of the prophets of old, would take place at the coming of the Christ, which I will presently shew to have been fulfilled as never before in accordance with the predictions."
================================
Apocalypse Commentaries Study Archive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

James Glasgow: The Apocalypse Translated and Expounded (1872) - Early Dating Advocate, Sets at AD 51.
"Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks presents an irrefragable proof that the whole of the New Testament, the Apocalypse included, must have been written before the fall of Jerusalem and the end of the Jewish kingdom." "When did the seventy weeks end ? No date later than that of the fall of Jerusalem (a.d. 70) can with any truth or plausibility be supposed, for these weeks were "determined on the holy city." But many say they ended earlier, — at the death of Christ. Against this, however, in the above, and some other particulars, there lie weighty objections, as Scaliger, Hales, and others have shown. Let us look at the objects which were to be accomplished before these weeks ran out. " // "Many of the visions and words of the prophets are still receiving fulfilment ; and not until the end of the gospel age is all prophecy fulfilled. Some were fulfilled at the death of Christ, some in the fall of the city and dispersion of the people, and some in the progressive influx of the Gentiles ; while many regarding Gentiles and outcast Jews are yet to pass into fulfilment."
========================================
Jewish and Rome sources

Jewish Sources: Talmud and Historians Study Archive



The Generation of the Messiah | The Ninth of Ab | Daniel's Weeks Prophecy | The Heavenly Temple | The Destruction of the Temple | New Heavens and Earth | Symbols for Rome

Significance of Forty Year Period
c.f. - A.D. 30 (Death of Christ) to A.D.70 (Fall of Jerusalem)

DANIEL'S WEEKS PROPHECY

Aquila
"On thy people, and on thy sacred city.. For ending disobedience, and for completing transgression. For the fulfilling of their disobedience and the completion of their sin, For the propitiation of their transgression, For the bringing in of everlasting righteousness, And for fulfilling the vision and the prophet. For the anointing of the most consecrated,"
(Quoted in Demonstratio Evangelica (Proof of the Gospel) ; BOOK VIII)
ON AQUILA

Josephus
"A sufficient proof of this is afforded by the passage, Josephus Arch. 10:1 l, 7, 'Daniel predicted also the Roman supremacy, and that our country should be desolated by them.'

Rabbi Judah (Main Compiler of the Talmud)
"These times were over long ago" (Regarding Daniel's prophecy - Babylonian Talmud Sanhedrin 98b and 97a)

Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi
"I have examined and searched all the Holy Scriptures and have not found the time for the coming of Messiah clearly fixed, except in the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written in the 9th chapter of the prophecy of Daniel."
=======================================

Thanks LLoJ; those are very useful citations.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Another 70 weeks commentary

Daniel's 70 Weeks - Future or Fulfilled? | Partial Preterism | The Preterist Archive
Ralph Woodrow

While Christians are generally united in the belief that the "seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks", that is, 69 weeks (483 years) measured unto "Messiah", concerning the final week of the prophecy, the 70th week, there are two entirely different interpretations that are held today—the FUTURIST interpretation and the FULFILLED interpretation.

The futurist interpretation is that a huge gap of 2,000 years or so separates the 70th week from the other 69 weeks that measured unto Messiah. The fulfilled interpretation is that no gap is to be placed between the 69th week and the 70th-that the 70th week followed the 69th in logical sequence.

The futurist interpretation is that the 70th week refers to the Antichrist who will make a covenant with the Jews. This covenant will allow them to offer sacrifices in a "rebuilt" temple at Jerusalem for seven years, but after three and a half years he will break this covenant and cause the sacrifices to cease. The fulfilled interpretation, on the other hand, is that the 70th week refers to Christ and that the causing of the sacrifices to cease was accomplished at Calvary when Christ became the final and perfect sacrifice for sin.

What differences exist here! One says the 70th week is future; the other says it is fulfilled!
One says there is a huge gap between the 69th and the 70th weeks; the other requires no gap.
One says the 70th week pertains to Antichrist; the other to Jesus Christ!

In view of such glaring differences, both of these interpretations simply cannot be correct.

2. THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM AND THE TEMPLE. This part of the prophecy was not dated within the framework of the 70 weeks as was the time of the appearance of Messiah to Israel, the time of his death, etc.
Nevertheless, living on this side of the fulfillment, we know that the predicted destruction found fulfillment in 70 A.D. when the armies of Titus brought the city to desolation.

With Adam Clarke we say: "The whole of this prophecy from the times and corresponding events has been fulfilled to the very letter." (Clarke's Commentary, note on Daniel 9)
===============================
Date:
04 Feb 2005
Time:
10:05:09
Comments

THANK YOU SO MUCH, FOR MANY YEARS I COULD NEVER FIT THE FUTURIST VIEW IN MY SPIRIT ON THE 70WEEKS OF DANIEL AND PARTICULARLY THE PREMILLENIALIST VIEW.GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS (IN ONE WEEK) OPENED MY EYES TO THE TRUTH WITH THE HELP OF ENLIGHTENED ONES SUCH AS YOURSELVES.THANK YOU SO MUCH, I AM OVERJOYED AS ALL THE SCRIPTURES HAVE JUST SLOTTED INTO PLACE.MY POOR HUBBY HEARS YYYES YYYES CONTINUALLY NOW DURING MY VERY HUNGRY STUDY TIMES.THANK YOU AND MAY GOD CONTIUE TO BLESS YOUR MINISTRY WITH MANY OF THOSE WHO ARE ALSO SEEKING TRUTH. LESLEYFORD350@MSN.CO.UK
=========================================

Date: 29 Jan 2013
Time: 01:06:53

Your Comments:

This time construction makes sense to me. Particularly since the description breaks the first 7 years for some reason but there is no extended lapse between the 7 and the 62 as the futurist position claims necessary between 69 and 70.
So the clock seems to have to keep running without a 2000 year gap. Only Hitch?: That the fall of Jerusalem as described in these verses: "and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined....
...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate". does not happen in the 70 weeks seems odd. Christ clarifies that Himself in Matthew 24:34 as something to happen to that generation but it's placement in the 70 weeks passage looks out of sequence.

 

[jgr]

Another 70 weeks commentary

Daniel's 70 Weeks - Future or Fulfilled? | Partial Preterism | The Preterist Archive
Ralph Woodrow

While Christians are generally united in the belief that the "seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks", that is, 69 weeks (483 years) measured unto "Messiah", concerning the final week of the prophecy, the 70th week, there are two entirely different interpretations that are held today—the FUTURIST interpretation and the FULFILLED interpretation.

The futurist interpretation is that a huge gap of 2,000 years or so separates the 70th week from the other 69 weeks that measured unto Messiah. The fulfilled interpretation is that no gap is to be placed between the 69th week and the 70th-that the 70th week followed the 69th in logical sequence.

The futurist interpretation is that the 70th week refers to the Antichrist who will make a covenant with the Jews. This covenant will allow them to offer sacrifices in a "rebuilt" temple at Jerusalem for seven years, but after three and a half years he will break this covenant and cause the sacrifices to cease. The fulfilled interpretation, on the other hand, is that the 70th week refers to Christ and that the causing of the sacrifices to cease was accomplished at Calvary when Christ became the final and perfect sacrifice for sin.

What differences exist here! One says the 70th week is future; the other says it is fulfilled!
One says there is a huge gap between the 69th and the 70th weeks; the other requires no gap.
One says the 70th week pertains to Antichrist; the other to Jesus Christ!

In view of such glaring differences, both of these interpretations simply cannot be correct.

2. THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM AND THE TEMPLE. This part of the prophecy was not dated within the framework of the 70 weeks as was the time of the appearance of Messiah to Israel, the time of his death, etc.
Nevertheless, living on this side of the fulfillment, we know that the predicted destruction found fulfillment in 70 A.D. when the armies of Titus brought the city to desolation.

With Adam Clarke we say: "The whole of this prophecy from the times and corresponding events has been fulfilled to the very letter." (Clarke's Commentary, note on Daniel 9)
===============================
Date:
04 Feb 2005
Time:
10:05:09
Comments

THANK YOU SO MUCH, FOR MANY YEARS I COULD NEVER FIT THE FUTURIST VIEW IN MY SPIRIT ON THE 70WEEKS OF DANIEL AND PARTICULARLY THE PREMILLENIALIST VIEW.GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS (IN ONE WEEK) OPENED MY EYES TO THE TRUTH WITH THE HELP OF ENLIGHTENED ONES SUCH AS YOURSELVES.THANK YOU SO MUCH, I AM OVERJOYED AS ALL THE SCRIPTURES HAVE JUST SLOTTED INTO PLACE.MY POOR HUBBY HEARS YYYES YYYES CONTINUALLY NOW DURING MY VERY HUNGRY STUDY TIMES.THANK YOU AND MAY GOD CONTIUE TO BLESS YOUR MINISTRY WITH MANY OF THOSE WHO ARE ALSO SEEKING TRUTH. LESLEYFORD350@MSN.CO.UK
=========================================

Date: 29 Jan 2013
Time: 01:06:53

Your Comments:

This time construction makes sense to me. Particularly since the description breaks the first 7 years for some reason but there is no extended lapse between the 7 and the 62 as the futurist position claims necessary between 69 and 70.
So the clock seems to have to keep running without a 2000 year gap. Only Hitch?: That the fall of Jerusalem as described in these verses: "and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined....
...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate". does not happen in the 70 weeks seems odd. Christ clarifies that Himself in Matthew 24:34 as something to happen to that generation but it's placement in the 70 weeks passage looks out of sequence.

More good stuff, LLoJ. Ralph Woodrow pays tribute here to Dr. H. C. Heffren, whom I was privileged to know personally.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Hello jgr......Agree.
I am now delving into early centuries Christian commentators.
Eusebius comes to mine........
I view all of the 70 weeks as fulfilled, also most[if not all] of the Olivet Discourse and Revelation in regards to the fall of 1st century Jerusalem, it's OC Temple and Priesthood[as shown in Revelation 18/19].

Thanks LLoJ; those are very useful citations.

Thanks jgr.............

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
Another 70 weeks commentary

Daniel's 70 Weeks - Future or Fulfilled? | Partial Preterism | The Preterist Archive
Ralph Woodrow

Thanks LLoJ; those are very useful citations.

Thks again jgr.

Is it just me or do I get the sense that a lot of the very early Christian commentators appear to be Preterists?
I will have to research more on them [from the "Preterist" angle of course]

That aside, I believe the Jewish historian Josephus should be required reading for Christians, as who cannot be awed by his account of the the historic and divine fulfillment regarding the fall of Jerusalem in 70a.....
I have a thread here for those interested:

JOSEPHUS, OLIVET DISCOURSE AND BOOK OF REVELATION

Flavius Josephus | Jewish priest, scholar, and historian

Flavius Josephus, original name Joseph Ben Matthias, (born ad 37/38, Jerusalem—died ad 100, Rome), Jewish priest, scholar, and historian who wrote valuable works on the Jewish revolt of 66–70 and on earlier Jewish history. His major books are History of the Jewish War (75–79), The Antiquities of the Jews (93), and Against Apion.

Flavius Josephus was born of an aristocratic priestly family in Jerusalem. According to his own account, he was a precocious youth who by the age of 14 was consulted by high priests in matters of Jewish law. At age 16 he undertook a three-year sojourn in the wilderness with the hermit Bannus, a member of one of the ascetic Jewish sects that flourished in Judaea around the time of Christ.

Returning to Jerusalem, he joined the Pharisees—a fact of crucial importance in understanding his later collaboration with the Romans. The Pharisees, despite the unflattering portrayal of them in the New Testament, were for the most part intensely religious Jews and adhered to a strict though nonliteral observance of the Torah.
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This is a good version of Josephus' 70ad event:

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The Destruction Of JERUSALEM An Absolute and Irresistible PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY:
INCLUDING A NARRATIVE OF THE CALAMITIES WHICH BEFEL THE JEWS
So far as they tend to verify OUR LORD'S PREDICTIONS Relative to that event.

By George Peter Holford
(Written in 1805)

Also see: Rapture refuted

"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."
(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)


PREFACE
History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION ; together with the impressive and terrific grandeur of the events themselves.........................
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Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and tidings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
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A great utube vid on that event [the creator of them combined all 4 videos into 1 just recently]
Best viewed FULL SCREEN.


Invicta
Published on Aug 11, 2019

The entire documentary on the Roman Siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD. This massive battle is one of the most stunning of all antiquity. On display were impressive siege works and feats of bravery on both the Roman and Jewish sides as they fought mercilessly over every inch of Jerusalem. Fighting would even make its way up the the inner sanctums of the Temple Mount and witness the destruction of the Second Temple.

Literary Sources: "The Jewish Revolt" by Si Sheppard "The Forts of Judaea" by Samuel Rocca "Legions of Rome" by Stephen Dando-Collins "Uniforms of the Roman World" by Kevin Kiley

 

[Vicky gould]

Re. Clement, that may well be true, but you would need to substantiate it with actual quotes from his writings.



Roman Catholicism did not begin to appear in identifiable form until about two centuries after Clement, and its descent into apostasy did not begin to appear until several centuries after that.



The claim of new truth which no one else possesses, and which is not found in the orthodoxy of the historical true Christian Church, is a classic characteristic of a cult.

Jude 3 NASB
Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.



Amen. We can certainly disagree without being disagreeable.

It isn't new truth it is new revelation that has always been there. Such as the Rock who followed Israel was the Christ. not recognized for ages and then explained. I thank you for you zeal and love of our Lord and his people look forward to pick your brain in the future.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

jgr said: ↑
Re. Clement, that may well be true, but you would need to substantiate it with actual quotes from his writings.

It isn't new truth it is new revelation that has always been there. Such as the Rock who followed Israel was the Christ. not recognized for ages and then explained. I thank you for you zeal and love of our Lord and his people look forward to pick your brain in the future.

Hello Vicky and welcome to CF. Feel free to pick my brain also

How much of the 70 weeks do you view as fulfilled? And what are your views of my posts? Thanks

Is there a "gap" in the 70 weeks of Daniel 9"

1. No
   26 vote(s)
   48.1%
2. Yes
   26 vote(s)
   48.1%
3. 
   I don't know
   1 vote(s)
   1.9%
4. Other
   1 vote(s)
   1.9%

 

[BABerean2]

the Millennial Reign of Christ.

Can you show us the mortals that remain alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

Can you explain how mortals will survive the "flaming fire" found in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Vicky gould said: ↑
the Millennial Reign of Christ.

Can you show us the mortals that remain alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?
Can you explain how mortals will survive the "flaming fire" found in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?
.

Hello. How is this related to the topic of this thread?

There are a plethora of Millennial threads on CF..........

https://www.google.com/search?q=mil...iqwKHZciCLQQrQIoBDAAegQICBAN&biw=1366&bih=626

Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

I believe every main eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They all teach the Kingdom of God is physical instead of being spiritual. So all try to build a physical kingdom on earth in Christ’s name. This includes Amillennialists, Postmillennialists, and Premillennialists, who look for a physical kingdom of the future that will last 1000 years.

But scripture teaches the Kingdom is here now - spiritually. It is not of this world. And it is everlasting.

The Amillennialists say the kingdom is here now, but it is physical. And this led to the Church and State persecution of innocent people by the Catholics over the centuries, and by the Lutheran and Reformed Church States to a lesser degree.

The Postmillennialists say the same thinking the Church will finally influence and dominate civil laws and magistrates. A sort of "Christianized" world. Some Dominion Postmillennial groups plan a violent takeover of the world.

Premillennialist and Dispensationalists see a physical kingdom ruling the world by force after Jesus returns.

But the common error in all groups is the physical kingdom concept and the comingling of Church and State that Jesus keeps separate when he says his kingdom is not of this world.

Any thoughts or rebuttals appreciated.