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Quit derailing my thread.......................
Not according to Daniel.
Only to modernist dispensational futurism.
From Dr. Andrew Carnie's acclaimed Syntax: A Generative Introduction :
"Antecedent: An NP that gives its meaning to another NP."
An NP is a Noun Phrase, encompassing nouns, pronouns, and their phrasal equivalents.
Thus a Noun Phrase can be the antecedent of a following Noun.
Thus the Noun Phrase "Messiah the Prince" in Daniel 9:25 is the antecedent of the following Noun "prince" in Daniel 9:26.
Have you tossed your grammar textbook yet?
Better do so quickly before it misleads you further.
Are those Nazi armies found in Scripture?
Are those Russian armies found in Scripture?
Are those Chinese armies found in Scripture?
Please try to stay on topic.
Additionally, good grammar and good spelling are inextricably associated.
Please try to do better.
Hmmm.Are those Nazi armies found in Scripture?
Are those Russian armies found in Scripture?
Are those Chinese armies found in Scripture?
Revelation 11:1-3 simply does not fit in the 1st century.There is a Sanctuary and Holy City mentioned in Revelation 11:2 [Which I view as 1st century Herod's Temple]
These witnesses come to mind.Revelation 11:1-3 simply does not fit in the 1st century.
Where were the 2 Witnesses for the exact specified 42 month/ 1260 day period?
There is really no doubt that the gap of 2000 years between the Crucifixion of Jesus and His Return is a reality; we have experienced it!
Its nearly over now and we can expect all the dramatic events as prophesied to happen soon, leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.
Put aside your notions of a past fulfilment and be ready to stand firm in your faith, thru all that must happen.
Making this statement to the Apostles, which they did fulfil, fit the Revelation 11:1-3 prophecy about two men who will witness the Gospel only in Jerusalem, for only 42 months, is simply preposterous and quite unbelievable.These witnesses come to mind.
Pentecost came later..........
Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you,
and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Lazarus and 2 witnesses of Reve 11 similarity
Acts 1 and Revelation 11 Ascending in cloud
LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
These witnesses come to mind. Pentecost came later..........
Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you,
and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Acts 1:8 is actually similar to what Jesus spoke to them in Matt 10:Making this statement to the Apostles, which they did fulfil, fit the Revelation 11:1-3 prophecy about two men who will witness the Gospel only in Jerusalem, for only 42 months, is simply preposterous and quite unbelievable.
At that Pentecost, the holy Spirit did fall upon them, but not to the extent prophesied in Joel 2:28-29; yet to happen.
There is a Sanctuary and Holy City mentioned in Revelation 11:2 [Which I view as 1st century Herod's Temple]
Let's look closer at the Greek in these verses of Matt, Mark, Luke and Revelation......
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread
Matthew 24:15 Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination<946> of the desolation<2050>, the being declared<4483> thru Daniel the prophet, having-stood<2476> in a place, holy<40> (the one-reading<ἀναγινώσκων <314> let him be understanding... 16 then those in the Judea let them be fleeing! into the mountains
Mark 13:14 `Whenever yet ye may be seeing the abomination<946> of the desolation<2050>, the being declared thru Daniel the prophet, having-stood where not it is binding<1163>, (the one-reading< ἀναγινώσκων <314> let him be minding/understanding), then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing! into the mountains
Revelation 1:3 Happy the one reading/ana-ginwskwn/ἀναγινώσκων <314> (5723) and the ones hearing the words of the prophecy and keepings the in it having been written, that the time nigh.
=================================
Luke 21:20
Whenever yet may be seeing the Jerusalem surrounded<2124> by war-troops<4760>, then be knowing that come nigh<1448> desolating<2050> of Her
However, Luke does not mention it in his Gospel, but a Sanctuary and Court of the Priest is mentioned in Revel 11:2.................
What about Revelation 11:1-2 SANCTUARY, COURT AND HOLY CITY
Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary of the God and the Altar and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833> without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the Nations
and they shall be trampling<3961> the holy City forty two months
Speculating on when Revelation was visioned/written is OT for this thread so it is irrelevant.The symbolism of Rev..11:1 tricks me a bit. John is asked to measure something that did not Physically exist; the Temple was destroyed 15 years before Revelation was written. Gentiles treading the temple mound under foot begins with the advent of Mohammad; from the first Islamic shrine on the Temple mount until the six day war is 1260 years; coincidentally from the setting up of the Papacy until Napoleon put the Pope in prison was 1260 years also; and the time the two witness prophesied in sack cloth was 1260 years.
At this stage I feel that partial Preterism seems to fit best in an understanding of scripture. There are a few things, however, I can't explain which are troubling me.
One of those is determining the date that revelation was written, ie pre 70AD or around 95AD. It is concerning me because if I read it and think it is prophesising about the temple destruction, if it is written in 95AD that would be in the past. Also, I am yet to be convinced that the arguments and counter arguments for an early authorship hold much water. There seems to be better evidence for the later date.
So my question is... For those amongst us who are partial preterists or similar, is the dating of revelation a game changer? If I can't get an answer, I will rethink my doctrine for sure.
Date of RevelationJohannineScholar said: ↑
A recent discussion in the eschatology forum saw the claim that Revelation was written during Domitian's reign. Only one unambiguous early writer (before Eusebius) was mentioned--Victorinus. The true state of the matter is as follows.
Domitianic Dating:
Victorinus (third/fourth century)
Eusebius (fourth century)
Jerome (fourth/fifth century)
Neronian Dating:
The Acts of John (second century)
Irenaeus (probable) (second century)
Tertullian (second/third century)
Clement of Alexandria (third century)
Tyconius (fourth century)
Syriac version of Revelation (perhaps as early as fourth century)
The Syriac History of John (perhaps late fourth century)
The Acts of John by Prochorus (fifth century)
Claudian Dating:
Muratorian Canon (second/third century)
Epiphanius (fourth century)
Book Of Revelation Written In 96AD, Proves The Gentile Fulfillment False!Just The Facts said: ↑
Hello
Partial Preterist post everywhere trying to convince all that it is all about the destruction of Jerusalem. What they rarely say unless pressed, is that their whole theory kind of hinges on the book of Revelation not being penned in 96 AD as 99.9% of Scholars believe but is from an earlier date of 66 AD. So therefore it could be all about the future destruction of Jerusalem.
What they simple ignore is that this book is written to seven Gentile Churches in Asia Minor about what was going to happen to them and their churches their cities from that date through the years.
Speculating on when Revelation was visioned/written is OT for this thread so it is irrelevant.
I view 1st century 70AD Jerusalem in Revelation so I don't regard when it was written/visioned
For the preterist view of the dating it, just google "date/dating of Revelation preterist"
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-ab&sxsrf=ACYBGNTE3F23xApHV1zs8p999O5JvBT6qA:1572386514519&ei=0ra4Xc6fH47IsQXUkIbwAg&q=dating+of+revelation+preterist&oq=dating+of+revelation+preterist&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i22i30.4588956.4600706..4602047...3.8..0.150.3345.18j15......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0j0i131j35i39j0i67j0i131i67j0i20i263j33i22i29i30j33i160j0i8i13i30.SGFteHdYt_I&ved=0ahUKEwjO0JadvMLlAhUOZKwKHVSIAS4Q4dUDCAo&uact=5
=================
Some threads:
Partial Preterism and dating revelation
Revelation Written in Nero's Reign
Date of Revelation
Book Of Revelation Written In 96AD, Proves The Gentile Fulfillment False!
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Work in progress.Acts 1:8 is actually similar to what Jesus spoke to them in Matt 10:
Mat 10:23
“When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Is Jesus talking just about the land of Israel or the world in this verse? The "world" of course would also be simply preposterous and unbelievable.
Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you,
and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end<2078> of the earth/land<1093>.”
LittleLambofJesus said:Hmmm.
Do they still use the denarius in addition to horses and chariots for battle?
Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "a measure of grain/wheat a denarius and three measures of barleys a denarius, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring"."
Revelation 18:13 "chariots, horses, bodies and souls of men"
Revelation 9:9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots<716> with many horses running into battle.
The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19
Revelation 18:12 Cargo of gold and silver, and precious stone and pearl and fine linen and purple, [Luke 16:19/Revelation 18:16] and silk, and scarlet, and all thyne wood, and every vessel of ivory, and every vessel of most precious wood and brass and iron and marble 13 and cinnamon, and odours, and ointment, and frankincense, and wine and oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep.
and of horses and of chariots and of bodies and souls of men.
========================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derive.
" Trying to fit past and current things into the end times, is a fruitless exercise" Keras, I love the way you put things at times!Work in progress.
Nothing to do with the 2 men who will preach in Jerusalem during the final 3 1/2 years of this age.
Why not believe the plain Words of scripture? Trying to fit past and current things into the end times, is a fruitless exercise.
The symbolism of Rev..11:1 tricks me a bit. John is asked to measure something that did not Physically exist; the Temple was destroyed 15 years before Revelation was written. Gentiles treading the temple mound under foot begins with the advent of Mohammad; from the first Islamic shrine on the Temple mount until the six day war is 1260 years; coincidentally from the setting up of the Papacy until Napoleon put the Pope in prison was 1260 years also; and the time the two witness prophesied in sack cloth was 1260 years.
No doubt; there WILL be a new Temple on the Temple Mount, in Jerusalem.Some think the new Jewish temple will sit right beside the Muslim temple, so the courtyard would be Muslim ground. I don't know about that. What I am convinced of is that Revelation is about the FUTURE 70th week that will end this age.
No doubt; there WILL be a new Temple on the Temple Mount, in Jerusalem.
But it will NOT be 'Jewish'.
Zechariah 6:15 says that men from far away will come to build the Temple.....
Right you are! There is much more to Israel than Jews.No doubt; there WILL be a new Temple on the Temple Mount, in Jerusalem.
But it will NOT be 'Jewish'. The Lord spoke to all the Israelites, Ezekiel 43:10, who are far more than just the few Messianic Jews.
Zechariah 6:15 says that men from far away will come to build the Temple.....
Isaiah 56:1-8 tells it how it will be.
Yes, OF COURSE the church is body of Christ on earth and each member is a temple of the Holy Spirit. But this has nothing to do with the price of tea in China, or the truth that Israel WILL BUILD another temple. Paul told us that man of sin will enter that temple and declare he is God. He will be coming AS IF he is Christ, taking the place of Christ, so to speak. It is written that Jesus will enter a new temple through the Eastern gate. That is why the Jews concreted it up - as if they could stop GOD.No doubt that you are wrong. You got the wrong temple. It's New Testament congrgation of Israel that Christ confirmed a covenant with. Not antichrist nor, physical temple in nation Israel!
Of course not. It's Christ that He use the Gentiles to build his Temple... through the Church! Selah! Didn't you read Scripture and receive it?
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
That is your holy temple right here "IF" you are chosen Elect of God to receive this truth. It is a spiritual temple that people in Christ coming and building the temple since the Cross! Not your pipe dream of the physical temple in Israel in the future. Sorry!
Yes, OF COURSE the church is body of Christ on earth and each member is a temple of the Holy Spirit. But
this has nothing to do with the price of tea in China, or the truth that Israel WILL BUILD another temple.
John told us there would be worshipers INSIDE that temple. Of course it will be a real, physical, "brick and mortar" temple.
You are the one that contradicted written scripture. You know the pertinent scriptures. Paul tells us there must be a temple and John was told to measure it. Both would be very difficult if not temple. Therefore OF COURSE there will be a temple.Ahhh, here come the "but"....
Based on what Scripture? Come on, when will you learn how to quote Scripture to refute something. Your personal opinions have "nothing to do with the price of tea in China."
Here you go again. Failure to quote Scripture and check with the context.
Revelation 11:1-2 KJV
[1] And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
[2] But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
The book of Revelation is replete with imagery, symbols, and monikers, most of which refer to or are derived from Old Testament examples. God is not talking about the physical temple here.
Do you even know what a reed like unto a rod is? How did John measure the temple if it is a physical temple? How about when John measured the city, gates, wall of the holy City, in Revelation 21? How did Ezekiel measure the city in Ezekiel 40:5 Did God gave them a physical measure to measure a physical city?
So to correct you, God is not telling John to measure a literal Temple, because there was no literal temple in the visions he was receiving, he was given a spiritual vision of the 'true' temple to illustrate that the children of God did not conform to it.
Romans 8:29
This very same Greek word rise. And as signified in the symbology of John, when we are called of God to measure the Holy Temple, we also are commanded to be risen up together with Christ, and be conformed to His image. The image of the Holy Temple with exact dimensions. Indeed, that is the only way that we will even have true knowledge of the 'true' dimensions of the Temple of heaven.
- "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
God did not tell John to measure a physical temple in Israel and count the number of Jewish men.It is the true body of Christ making up of both old and new testament Saints wihch is what Holy City of Revelation 21 represents! Selah!
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