Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?

[Eternally Grateful]

the sanctuary was the tabernacle of moses.
Leviticus 12:4 Then she shall continue for thirty-three days in the blood of her purifying. She shall not touch anything holy, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying are completed.

So you think daniel was upset because the tabernacle of meeting was destroyed?

is the mosaic covenant still in force today?

We are not talking about mosaic, we are talking about abrahamic, plus maybe davidic.

Is that still in effect? If it is, the land promise is still in effect

If not, when did forever stop?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I believe it's been posted before, so just because you reject it doesn't mean it's not been shown (or that it's not true). IOW.....your opinion doesn't change the support or the reality.

Jesus died "in the midst [or middle, as some versions use] of the 70th week" as Scripture states....here:

Daniel 9:27 ~ And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.​

Nice chart.
Yes, Saul/Paul was at that event of Stephen's stoning, and giving approval.
Later on, Paul would become the most powerful of the Apostles in the NT.........

Stephen actually sees the heavens open up, just as John does in Reve 19:11. Awesome sauce!.........

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/stoning-of-stephen-against-the-law.6719420/
Stoning of Stephen against the Law

Here, Stephen sees Jesus standing [in judgement maybe?]

Acts 7:
56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens having been opened<διηνοιγμένους<455> and the Son of the Man standing out of rights of the God!"

58 They dragged him out of the city and began to stone him.
Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul.

Revelation shows Jesus sitting and coming to wage war :

Revelation 19:11
And I saw the heaven being opened<ἠνεῳγμένον <455> and behold! A white horse!
and the One sitting on it being called Faithful and True.
And in justice He is judging and battling.

 

[DavidPT]

Do you deny that Daniel 9:24 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century, in Hebrews 10:16-18, and Acts of the Apostles 10:38?

.

What does any of that have to do with the following in verse 27 though? and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Let's think about verse 17 in general. And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Is 2 Corinthians 5:10 fulfilled before or after Hebrews 10:17? If after, 2 Corinthians 5:10 seems to contradict Hebrews 10:17 then. The part that contradicts it---whether it be good or bad. If bad things are also being brought up at the time, that contradicts---And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. If He remembers them no more prior to the judgment seat of Christ, why then are bad things also brought up if He already no longer remembers any of those bad things one has done in their body? It's not just the unsaved who do bad things in their bodies, the saved do as well since no one is perfect like Christ was.

 

[mkgal1]

Nice chart.

I'm a visual person....this helps me a great deal to keep the time frame straight.

Yes, Saul/Paul was at that event of Stephen's stoning, and giving approval.
Later on, Paul would become one of the most powerful Apostles in the NT.........

Stephen actually sees the heavens open up, just as John does in Reve 19:11. Awesome sauce!.........

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/stoning-of-stephen-against-the-law.6719420/
Stoning of Stephen against the Law

Here, Stephen sees Jesus standing [in judgement maybe?]

Acts 7:

56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens having been opened<διηνοιγμένους<455> and the Son of the Man standing out of rights of the God!"
58 They dragged him out of the city and began to stone him.
Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul.
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [the Lord] and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit

Thanks for the link. I'll have to read when I have more ability to concentrate.

 

[mkgal1]

What does any of that have to do with the following in verse 27 though? and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

First....what's your understanding of the word "desolate" (in "He shall make it desolate")? And what do you believe is the noun form "the desolate" ?

 

[DavidPT]

First....what's your understanding of the word "desolate" (in "He shall make it desolate")? And what do you believe is the noun form "the desolate" ?

What's significant about this is this---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate

Obviously then it apparently means what it says. For the overspreading of abominations shall make the sacrifice and the oblation desolate, to cease. Try as I may, I just can't fit Christ into this passage. It makes no sense if Christ is meant in this verse.

shabath
shaw-bath'
a primitive root; to repose, i.e. desist from exertion; used in many implied relations (causative, figurative or specific):--(cause to, let, make to) cease, celebrate, cause (make) to fail, keep (sabbath), suffer to be lacking, leave, put away (down), (make to) rest, rid, still, take away.


This is the word translated as cease in the KJV. One of the defs is this---cause (make) to fail

Let's see how that might work with this verse.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to fail, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make the sacrifice and the oblation desolate, even until the consummation(end), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


desolate is meaning the following according to Strong's


shamem
shaw-mame'
a primitive root; to stun (or intransitively, grow numb), i.e. devastate or (figuratively) stupefy (both usually in a passive sense):--make amazed, be astonied, (be an) astonish(-ment), (be, bring into, unto, lay, lie, make) desolate(-ion, places), be destitute, destroy (self), (lay, lie, make) waste, wonder.

But unless one is also interpreting Daniel 9:27 with the help of Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 11, and Daniel 12, not to mention, passages in the NT as well, such as Revelation 13, for example, how is one expected to ever grasp what is meant by desolate in this verse in question? It's a big waste of my time and everyone else's time, if any of us try and bring any of those other chapters in Daniel mentioned above, into the discussion, the fact past Commentators have already convinced many that most of those chapters are speaking of things already fulfilled in history.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Daniel 9:27 (NKJV): And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

Wing - a particular place, the most holy place is where jesus said ths will take place

Abomination - an unclean thing, and idol, something which makes something unclean or detestable.

One who makes desolate - someone has placed this abomination on the wing to make it desolate, or unclean, uninhabitable, according to jesus, we will see this ido “standing in the holy place”

Consumation - to cease, to be completed, to be accomplished, ie, this idol will stand in the holy place until something is accomplished, what is that thing?

Is determined - it has a specific length of time

Is poured out on the one who desolates- this consumation or whatever it is will coninue until the desolator is destroyed.

Again, matt 24, jesus will return himself, bto end the great tribulation, revelation, the desolator is captued and cast into lake of fire.

 

[claninja]

if the fulfilling of the 70 weeks involve 2 comings in order to fulfill everything, that makes your point here moot.

I believe the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 are fulfilled at Christ's first coming. Since I believe the they are fulfilled at Christ's 1st coming, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple are not required to be within the 70 'sevens'.

I believe the prophecy of the 70 'sevens' (Daniel 9:24-26a,27a) are fulfilled at Christ's 1st coming. I believe Daniel 9:26b-27b are outside of the 70 'sevens' and were fulfilled in 70ad.

I am inserting a 40 year gap, but not within the context of the 70 'sevens'. Are there any other prophecies with a specific time frame given and a gap inserted within that time frame? none that I know of. But there are gaps in inserted in prophecy when no time frame is given, one example is luke 4:17-21.

Isaiah 61:1-2
The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,a
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor
gap
Isaiah 61:2
and the day of vengeance of our God,

Daniel never lived to see the 2nd temple. Why would the 2nd temple be so important to Daniel then? Why should he care that that temple gets built then destroyed? And when he rises from the dead at the end of this age, that 2nd temple still isn't going to mean anything to him. Once it was destroyed it was obviously gone for good.

I'm not following your argument.

 

[mkgal1]

What's significant about this is this---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate

Obviously then it apparently means what it says.

That doesn't really answer my question, though.
Since you and I have different understandings of this passage....then obviously there is a disconnect partially in the language - and I am presuming the word "desolate" has a lot to do with it. That's why I asked about that word specifically.

Try as I may, I just can't fit Christ into this passage.

What happened in the temple? What was Jesus' death on the cross called? Weren't they BOTH called "sacrifices"? Which one is considered superior? Take a look at Hebrews:

Hebrews 8:13 ~ By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.​

This is the word translated as cease in the KJV.

May we just focus on "desolate" for a while, please?

But unless one is also interpreting Daniel 9:27 with the help of Daniel 7, Daniel 8, Daniel 11, and Daniel 12, not to mention, passages in the NT as well, such as Revelation 13, for example, how is one expected to ever grasp what is meant by desolate in this verse in question? It's a big waste of my time and everyone else's time, if any of us try and bring any of those other chapters in Daniel mentioned above, into the discussion, the fact past Commentators have already convinced many that most of those chapters are speaking of things already fulfilled in history.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here.....but Scripture does, indeed, help us to interpret Scripture.

You realize the ancient Jews understood that God's presence went with them in the Ark of the Covenant....and later filled the temple in Jerusalem.....right? They didn't have the understanding we have now.....that God's presence isn't restricted.

That Strong's definition of "shamem" says "desolate". The definition of that is:

Dictionary = (of a place) deserted of people and in a state of bleak and dismal emptiness.

It can then be said that the temple was empty of God's presence (which is what I believe is the meaning in this passage).

Jesus is recorded as saying:

Matthew 23:38 ~ "See, your house is left to you, desolate."

From Bible Study Tools:

As with the Tabernacle, the Temple service included elaborate procedures by which man could approach God’s presence in a limited way. When the Temple was dedicated, God’s presence came to the Temple (1K. 1K. 8:10-11; 2Chr. 2Chr. 5:13-14). In the days of Ezekiel, after the civil war and after the Northern Kingdom had fallen into apostasy and been judged by Assyria, the sin of the Southern Kingdom, where Jerusalem and the Temple were located, was so severe as to drive God from His sanctuary. God no longer met with Israel in the Temple because it was no longer His House(Eze. Eze. 8:6; Eze. 9:3; Eze. 10:4, Eze. 10:18-19; Eze. 11:22-23 cf. Mtt. Mat. 23:38-39; Mtt. Mat. 24:3; Luke Luke 13:35). Soon thereafter, the Temple was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar and the Jews that remained were exiled to Babylon. Thus, an important historic principle was established concerning the Temple: when God leaves His House, it becomes subject to destruction. ​

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I believe the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 are fulfilled at Christ's first coming. Since I believe the they are fulfilled at Christ's 1st coming, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple are not required to be within the 70 'sevens'.

I believe the prophecy of the 70 'sevens' (Daniel 9:24-26a,27a) are fulfilled at Christ's 1st coming. I believe Daniel 9:26b-27b are outside of the 70 'sevens' and were fulfilled in 70ad.

I am inserting a 40 year gap, but not within the context of the 70 'sevens'. Are there any other prophecies with a specific time frame given and a gap inserted within that time frame? none that I know of. But there are gaps in inserted in prophecy when no time frame is given, one example is luke 4:17-21.

Isaiah 61:1-2
The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,a
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor
gap
Isaiah 61:2
and the day of vengeance of our God,



I'm not following your argument.

If jesus died right after the 69th week, (which he did) where does the final 7 occur?

 

[mkgal1]

It makes no sense if Christ is meant in this verse.

shabath
shaw-bath'
a primitive root; to repose, i.e. desist from exertion; used in many implied relations (causative, figurative or specific):--(cause to, let, make to) cease, celebrate, cause (make) to fail, keep (sabbath), suffer to be lacking, leave, put away (down), (make to) rest, rid, still, take away.


This is the word translated as cease in the KJV. One of the defs is this---cause (make) to fail

Let's see how that might work with this verse.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to fail

When Jesus died on the cross.....it was during Passover. It was also during the time of the evening sacrifice in the temple. So....that works very well with that verse (considering Jesus). IOW.....His death on the cross caused the sacrifice of the actual lamb in the temple to fail (it was useless in comparison to Jesus' death on the cross).

More about the timing of His death. It was also fell on the year of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread (grain sacrifice) ----->https://www.thattheworldmayknow.com/timing-of-jesus-death

 

[BABerean2]

What does any of that have to do with the following in verse 27 though? and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Let's think about verse 17 in general. And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Is 2 Corinthians 5:10 fulfilled before or after Hebrews 10:17? If after, 2 Corinthians 5:10 seems to contradict Hebrews 10:17 then. The part that contradicts it---whether it be good or bad. If bad things are also being brought up at the time, that contradicts---And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. If He remembers them no more prior to the judgment seat of Christ, why then are bad things also brought up if He already no longer remembers any of those bad things one has done in their body? It's not just the unsaved who do bad things in their bodies, the saved do as well since no one is perfect like Christ was.

Do you belong to the judge found in John 5:27-30, because you have been "born again" of the Spirit of God?

If He bought you with His blood at Calvary, do you think he will defend you out of one side of His mouth, and condemn you out of the other side of His mouth?

When I am found guilty, He will show the Father the scars in His hands and feet and say "This one belongs to me".

Praise God, and His Son Jesus Christ!

.

 

[DavidPT]

Daniel 9:27 (NKJV): And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

Wing - a particular place, the most holy place is where jesus said ths will take place

Abomination - an unclean thing, and idol, something which makes something unclean or detestable.

One who makes desolate - someone has placed this abomination on the wing to make it desolate, or unclean, uninhabitable, according to jesus, we will see this ido “standing in the holy place”

Consumation - to cease, to be completed, to be accomplished, ie, this idol will stand in the holy place until something is accomplished, what is that thing?

Is determined - it has a specific length of time

Is poured out on the one who desolates- this consumation or whatever it is will coninue until the desolator is destroyed.

Again, matt 24, jesus will return himself, bto end the great tribulation, revelation, the desolator is captued and cast into lake of fire.

Something interesting you brought up is this----"Wing - a particular place, the most holy place is where jesus said ths will take place"

Compare with---and to anoint the most Holy(Daniel 9:24). Then compare with the following.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Could---and to anoint the most Holy---be meaning---Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed?

I don't know if a does or not. One thing I do know, assuming the 2300 days are meaning literal days, and the fact there are 2520 days within a week of years, 2300 days can at least fit somewhere inside this 2520 days. I'm not saying it for certain does, but that it can fit within 2520 days. But if it does, I wouldn't know how to place it inside of this 2520 days though.

 

[claninja]

If jesus died right after the 69th week, (which he did) where does the final 7 occur?

Final 7 weeks? you mean final 1 week?

What number comes after 69? that's the week Jesus died in.

 

[DavidPT]

When Jesus died on the cross.....it was during Passover. It was also during the time of the evening sacrifice in the temple. So....that works very well with that verse (considering Jesus). IOW.....His death on the cross caused the sacrifice of the actual lamb in the temple to fail (it was useless in comparison to Jesus' death on the cross).

More about the timing of His death. It was also fell on the year of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread (grain sacrifice) ----->https://www.thattheworldmayknow.com/timing-of-jesus-death

Yes, that part makes sense by itself, but it doesn't make sense if it also involves the overspreading of abominations. If that part wasn't in that verse, I would likely be concluding the same thing you are. According to my Bible, not only did Jesus Himself put an end to the sacrifice and oblation, someone else does it as well, and that that person isn't meaning Jesus. Your side of the debate ignores that fact, my guess is, because your side has been convinced this other person in question has already done this before Jesus did, thus no one but Jesus to fulfill Daniel 9:27 then.

 

[BABerean2]

Yes, that part makes sense by itself, but it doesn't make sense if it also involves the overspreading of abominations. If that part wasn't in that verse, I would likely be concluding the same thing you are. According to my Bible, not only did Jesus Himself put an end to the sacrifice and oblation, someone else does it as well, and that that person isn't meaning Jesus. Your side of the debate ignores that fact, my guess is, because your side has been convinced this other person in question has already done this before Jesus did, thus no one but Jesus to fulfill Daniel 9:27 then.

Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

.

 

[DavidPT]

Do you belong to the judge found in John 5:27-30, because you have been "born again" of the Spirit of God?

If He bought you with His blood at Calvary, do you think he will defend you out of one side of His mouth, and condemn you out of the other side of His mouth?

When I am found guilty, He will show the Father the scars in His hands and feet and say "This one belongs to me".

Praise God, and His Son Jesus Christ!

.

Paul said in that verse everyone has to answer for the good and bad things done in their bodies. That doesn't necessarily indicate one might lose their salvation then. My point is, how is it that bad things will be brought up if God has already no longer remembered any of these bad things before this judgment even happens? What does it mean to no longer remember?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

First....what's your understanding of the word "desolate" (in "He shall make it desolate")? And what do you believe is the noun form "the desolate" ?

It would seem to be:

8077 shmamah shem-aw-maw' or shimamah {shee-mam-aw'}; feminine noun of 8076; devastation; figuratively, astonishment:--(laid, X most) desolate(- ion), waste

Jeremiah 12:11
He places her desolation<8076>, desolation<8077> mourneth upon me,
the whole land is made desolate<8074>, because no man layeth it to heart.

Daniel 9:18
Incline Your ear, O my God, and hear; open Your eyes and see ones being desolate<8077> and the city that bears Your name.
For we are not presenting our petitions before You because of our righteous acts, but because of Your abundant compassion.

The equivalent greek word appears to be #2049?

2049. eremoo er-ay-mo'-o from 2048;
to lay waste (literally or figuratively):--(bring to, make) desolate(-ion), come to nought.

Matthew 12:25[Luke 11:17]
But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them:
“Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation<2049>,
and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.

Revelation 17:16
“And the ten horns which you saw on[fn] the beast, these shall be hating the Harlot,
and make Her desolate<2049> and naked, eat Her flesh and burn Her with fire.

Revelation 18:19
“They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great City, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth!
For in one hour She is made desolate<2049>.’

 

[mkgal1]

Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

.

It just gets more interesting:
https://www.seedbed.com/3-jewish-feasts-old-testament-know/

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Final 7 weeks? you mean final 1 week?[i means years sorry)

[quoteWhat number comes after 69? that's the week Jesus died in.

The 69th week ended on the day jesus entered jerusalem on a donkey as prophesied, jesus died the next weekend.

So again, what happened the final 7years