Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?

[Dave L]

You haven't shown why you conclude that though. All you have done is expressed an opinion without actually proving the opinion is correct.

Are you perhaps concluding that per all of the following? I know Preterists use the following to support this idea.

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Matthew 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Jesus is Abraham's Seed, not the unbelieving Jews. Abraham's seed is Israel.

 

[DavidPT]

Jesus is Abraham's Seed, not the unbelieving Jews. Abraham's seed is Israel.

Maybe I'm just not grasping in which sense you are meaning? So maybe you are correct for all I know. But the way it sounds on the surface, that Christ is Israel, it just doesn't sound right to me.

 

[Dave L]

Maybe I'm just not grasping in which sense you are meaning? So maybe you are correct for all I know. But the way it sounds on the surface, that Christ is Israel, it just doesn't sound right to me.

Consider Matthew's use of Hosea.

“When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)

“And [Jesus] was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)

 

[BABerean2]

Israel is not God. Christ is God, therefore can't also be Israel. Christ existed before there ever was an Israel. Was He Israel then too?

Jacob (Israel) was a shadow of Christ, in the same way that Abraham offering Isaac in the land of Moriah was a shadow of Christ.
Some people believe it was on the same spot where Christ would later be crucified.

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

He did not say "Moses (Pentateuch), and some of the prophets. He said "all".

On the road to Emmaus the risen Savior revealed that the whole Old Testament is about Him.

.

 

[keras]

Maybe I'm just not grasping in which sense you are meaning? So maybe you are correct for all I know. But the way it sounds on the surface, that Christ is Israel, it just doesn't sound right to me.

We need to understand the meaning of the word; 'Israel'
It was given to Jacob when he overcame the angel. It literally means; One who prevails with God and in his case; a Prince of God.
It refers to Jesus, as an Overcomer for God and therefore to His believers and followers, as stated in each of the seven Church's of Revelation and plainly by Paul in Galatians 6:16

 

[A71]

No, no gap.
Absurd and totally fraudulent idea.

 

[A71]

Read romans 11. The they who were cut off because of unbelief is Israel, they are the natural branches, who if they repent, will be grafted back in as apposed to the roman gentile believers, and myself who are unatural wild branches who need grafted in as unnatural branches.

Why would paul call the gentile christians gentiles if they were isreal as you are trying to insist

There are two Israels. That is why Paul refers to two Israels, and why he uses the typology of Esau and Jacob, the twins, who flipped the birthright.
Spiritual Israel, represented by Jacob, is the Church, who inherit the birthright.
Physical Israel, represented by Esau, are presently still
Blinded by and under the Law, and they forfeited the birthright. The genetic argument is Not germane here as anyone could become an Israelite under the Law. Anyone, be they Israelite or other, who follows Judaism, is an Israelite of the flesh, by assimilation.

The curve-ball that causes so much trouble is Zionism. These people are not Jews, i.e. They are not physical Israel. Why?
Because Israel was under a mandatory punishment; the scattering, the 'diaspora', was a punishment mandated by The Old Covenant, (Levitical and Mosaic), and it cannot be annulled arbitrarily by man. The Zionists, by returning to Israel when they should have been in diaspora, pending God's next judgement or decree, have flouted the Law and ceased to be under it.

 

[Douggg]

A simple reading of the passage without a gap proven by history shows Jesus and Titus as the two princes mentioned.

“He [Jesus] will confirm a [New] covenant with many for one week. But in the middle of that [70th] week he will bring sacrifices and offerings to a halt [offering himself as the atonement for sin]. On the wing of abominations will come one who destroys, [Titus and the Roman Legions] until the decreed end is poured out on the one who destroys [Rome's fall].”” (Daniel 9:27)

That interpretation is possible only if the verses are scrambled around, to be rewritten.

And to think that Titus has a function to be in the 70 weeks. What difference would it make of who was the leader of the Romans when the Romans destroyed the temple and city?

If it were a referral to Titus as being the prince, it would not be necessary to say "the people of", and just say the prince who shall come will destroy the city and sanctuary.

 

[Douggg]

I recommend you need to study all of daniel my friend, because daniel gives us an example of what an abomination which causes desolation looks like, with antiochus epiphanies (dan 11 greece commits an abomination of desolation causing sacrifice to cease) slaughtered a pig in the holy of holies (the little an abomination of desolation occures when an unclean object is placed in the holy of holies, making it unclean, and thus making it desolate)

I agree in principle. But I think it was also that Antiochus had a statue image of Zeus placed in the temple - and that is what the abomination of desolation in the end times will be in similitude - if not exact, a statue image of Zeus.

 

[klutedavid]

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　

Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)




Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　




Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)



Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　

Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　

Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　

Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　

Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　

Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　(See also Luke 19:41-44)

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　



Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　) (See Luke 23:27-31 where Jesus warned the women weeping for Him.)



Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　



Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　

Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　



Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.


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Your argument is valid.

People read only Matthew 24 and not Luke 21, hence they do not see the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies in 70 AD.

 

[BABerean2]

I agree in principle. But I think it was also that Antiochus had a statue image of Zeus placed in the temple - and that is what the abomination of desolation in the end times will be in similitude - if not exact, a statue image of Zeus.

Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

.

 

[DaDad]

Re: "Seven and sixty-two"

Most English Versions cite the "seven" and the "sixty-two" as one number. Newton discredited this premise:

Sir Isaac Newton’s DANIEL AND THE APOCALYPSE

by Sir William Whitla, London, 1922, Chapt. X, p. 281 https://archive.org/stream/danielandtheapoc00newtuoft#page/n251/mode/2up


We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbering used by no nation.​

Can ANYONE cite any Scriptural or Societal instance where a ~pair of shoes cost seven and sixty-two dollars plus tax~?

Perhaps the "Classical Commentary" version is fatally flawed in Scriptural text, context, and history. But other than that, -- it's good to go.

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[DaDad]

... Antiochus had a statue image of Zeus placed in the temple ...

... and the other "interpretations" for the Prophecies of Daniel are equally flawed.

Has anyone read Daniel 12:4 & 9?

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[jgr]

Re: "Seven and sixty-two"

Most English Versions cite the "seven" and the "sixty-two" as one number. Newton discredited this premise:

Sir Isaac Newton’s DANIEL AND THE APOCALYPSE

by Sir William Whitla, London, 1922, Chapt. X, p. 281 https://archive.org/stream/danielandtheapoc00newtuoft#page/n251/mode/2up


We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbering used by no nation.​

Can ANYONE cite any Scriptural or Societal instance where a ~pair of shoes cost seven and sixty-two dollars plus tax~?

Perhaps the "Classical Commentary" version is fatally flawed in Scriptural text, context, and history. But other than that, -- it's good to go.

Thanks,
DaDad

Newton had the 2nd coming occurring by 2015. But he was unquestionably a brilliant individual.

 

[DaDad]

Newton had the 2nd coming occurring by 2015. But he was unquestionably a brilliant individual.

Ummmmm, Newton REFUSED to publish his own book. His followers published Newston's work.
It's noteworthy that Newton easily discredited the premises the "Classical Commentators" proposed, as they failed the Scriptural/Historical examination. That's why Newton began his own attempt to solve that which CLEARLY hadn't been fulfilled. But Newton's own premises failed the Scriptural/Historical examination, and Newton realized this. Thus he refused to publish.

Could it be that the Prophecies of Daniel are ACTUALLY END-TIME PROPHECIES? Perhaps THAT'S why neither the "Classical Commentators" nor Newton were able to resolve the Scriptural/Historical aspects. It's too bad that now we're in the End-Times, but there's no one who can resolve the Scriptural/Historical puzzles.

DaDad

 

[DaDad]

History confirms Jesus fulfilled the unbroken prophecy in the middle of the 70th week as written.

Ummmmm, the COMMENTATORS confirm "Jesus" as having fulfilled Daniel 9, but neither Scripture nor History supports this premise.

Perhaps there's an end time "anointed one" who was killed (assassinated) in, oooooh, say about November of 1995?

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[Anto9us]

I don't understand Newton's comments at all, but it is past 2015 now, not that he wasn't brilliant.

SO - okay - 69.5 weeks is indeed after 69 weeks; though that's a bit awkward, because you would normally think that if Messiah is cut off AFTER 69 weeks, that that means RIGHT after -- at the end of the 69th week -- but as I say, 69.5 weeks is also AFTER 69 weeks, its just awkward.

But if Christ is cut off at a "mid-week point" (69.5 weeks) then one more half week (3 1/2 years) would totally complete the seventy shauvim. And I have heard it put forth that 3 1/2 years past when Christ was cut off puts one at the stoning of Stephen -"old" Israel's last chance - which they blow...

So in that view the entire 480 years is done with before Titus, before Nero, and the prophecy specific to "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" happens totally outside the 70 weeks, as does the Abomination of Desolation - which some say was Roman Standards in the Temple grounds, at 70 AD rather than inside the seventy weeks.

I don't know that ANY "gaps" are needed if the whole 70 shauvim runs its course by the stoning of Stephen; and the abomination takes place totally outside the 70 weeks

 

[Anto9us]

Could it be that the Prophecies of Daniel are ACTUALLY END-TIME PROPHECIES?

it could be, yeah, but the incredible part is that the 70 weeks prophecy can be seen to go from a commandment to rebuild Jerusalem ( 2 or 3 dates could be used for that, usually 457 BC or 444 BC are best starting points for the whole 70 weeks) and we come just about nail-on-the-head to Christ being cut off, this in a book not even in "The Prophets" section of OT Canon, but in the Writings -- and the prophecy holds whether Daniel was a real guy in Babylonian times, or if Daniel was a pseudonym and it was written in Macabeean times - no scholars can take away the basic time-line of "command to re-build" up to Jesus; regardless of all the Antiochus Epiphanes they want to produce

 

[DaDad]

... if Messiah is cut off AFTER 69 weeks, that that means RIGHT after ...

Ummmmm, please correct your statement to include, "I believe" between your two -thats-. Otherwise you're simple imposing a textual preference rather than adhering to what it actually says.

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[DaDad]

... the 70 weeks prophecy can be seen to go from a commandment to rebuild Jerusalem ...

Walvoord cites Young, who observed that the "going forth of the word" does NOT have the inference of any edict from man, but rather and edict directly from GOD. As such, if you consider Daniel 9:2, you should discover that the "perceived" is the biyn, -- Solomon Wisdom --, versus the simple shama. 1 Kings 3 is the best reference, where Solomon asked for shama, and GOD said HE would grant Solomon what he asked for, and give him such biyn that no man before him and no man after him shall have such biyn.

As such, if reading the Book of Jeremiah were the case, Daniel would have used shama. But if there were A DIFFERENT text "in the Books", then perhaps we could look at the Book of Psalms for the biyn "going forth of the word".

Have you read Psalms 24 recently?
DaDad