Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 18, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
Daniel 9:24
........and to-bring-in<935>
righteousness<6664> age-during<5769>,..................

age-during<5769>

5769 `owlam o-lawm' or lolam {o-lawm'}; from 5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity, continuance, eternal,..........

#H5769 used in 4 verses of Daniel.
3 of those in Daniel 12

Daniel 12:
2 ‘And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during<5769>, and some to reproaches — to abhorrence age-during<5769>.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars for age<5769> and perpetually<5703>

7 And I hear the one clothed in linen, who [is] upon the waters of the flood, and he doth lift up his right hand and his left unto the heavens, and sweareth by Him Who is living to the ages<5769>,
that ‘After a time, times, and a half, and at the completion of the scattering of the power of the holy people, finished are all these.’
[Revelation 10:5-7]

The equivalent greek word appears to be #G165/166

165. aion ahee-ohn' from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future)............

Revelation 10:
5 And the messenger whom I saw standing upon the sea, and upon the land, did lift up his hand to the heaven,
6 and did swear in Him Who doth live into the ages<165> of the ages<165>, who did create the heaven and the things in it, and the land and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it — that time shall not be yet,
7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh Messenger, when he may be about to be trumpeting,
the mystery of God may be finished, as He did declare to His own servants, to the Prophets.

I noticed Daniel 12:3 also uses the hebrew word #5703 in the same verse as #5769

5703 `ad ad from 5710;
properly, a (peremptory) terminus, i.e. (by implication) duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition):--eternity, ever(- lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.

Used 1 time in Daniel
YLT)
Daniel 12:
2 ‘And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during<5769>,
and some to reproaches — to abhorrence age-during<5769>.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse,
and those justifying the multitude as stars for age<5769> and perpetually<5703>

1st time used:

Exodus 15:18
Yahweh reigneth -- to the age<5769>, and for-ever<5703>!'

Last time used:

Habakkuk 3:6
He hath stood, and He measureth earth,
He hath seen, and He shaketh off nations,
And scatter themselves do mountains of antiquity<5703>,
Bowed have the hills of old<5769>, The ways of old<5769> are His.

This could be the greek equivalent:

166. aionios ahee-o'-nee-os from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

1st time used:

Matthew 18:8
'And if thy hand or thy foot doth cause thee to stumble,
cut them off and cast from thee;
it is good for thee to enter into the life lame or maimed,
rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast to the fire, the age-during/evelasting<166>.

Last time used:

Revelation 14:6
And I saw another Messenger flying in the mid-heaven/sky, having the age-during/everlasting<166> Gospel to preach unto them that settling<2521> on the land,
and to every nation, and kindred/tribe, and tongue, and people,

.

DavidPT · Aug 18, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
I noticed Daniel 12:3 also uses the hebrew word #5703 in the same verse as #5769

5703 `ad ad from 5710;
properly, a (peremptory) terminus, i.e. (by implication) duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition):--eternity, ever(- lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.

Used 1 time in Daniel
YLT)
Daniel 12:
2 ‘And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during<5769>,
and some to reproaches — to abhorrence age-during<5769>.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse,
and those justifying the multitude as stars for age<5769> and perpetually<5703>

1st time used:

Exodus 15:18
Yahweh reigneth -- to the age<5769>, and for-ever<5703>!'

Last time used:

Habakkuk 3:6
He hath stood, and He measureth earth,
He hath seen, and He shaketh off nations,
And scatter themselves do mountains of antiquity<5703>,
Bowed have the hills of old<5769>, The ways of old<5769> are His.

This could be the greek equivalent:

166. aionios ahee-o'-nee-os from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

1st time used:

Matthew 18:8
'And if thy hand or thy foot doth cause thee to stumble,
cut them off and cast from thee;
it is good for thee to enter into the life lame or maimed,
rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast to the fire, the age-during/evelasting<166>.

Last time used:

Revelation 14:6
And I saw another Messenger flying in the mid-heaven/sky, having the age-during/everlasting<166> Gospel to preach unto them that settling<2521> on the land,
and to every nation, and kindred/tribe, and tongue, and people,

.

IMO, throughout some of the chapters in Daniel, there are time indicators, and that all of these are pretty much referring to the same periods of time. A few examples.

Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Daniel 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Daniel 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

The time of the end in all these passages can only lead to one thing ultimately----the end of the days(Daniel 12:13). There are not multiple times of the end in the book of Daniel, where some have already come and gone, and where some are yet to come. They all refer to the same time of the end.

DaDad · Aug 18, 2018

DaDad" said:
And so history fulfilled David Ben Gurion as the FIRST "anointed one" in 1931, and Yitzhak Rabin as the SECOND "anointed one" in 1995.

jgr said:
Being public figures, do you have credible media or other accounts or records of the occasions of their anointings?

Yeah, each of us do, in the desk file drawer along with OUR media accounts, and records of OUR anointings.
Thanks,
DaDad

Douggg · Aug 18, 2018

DavidPT said:
This is not entirely true though. There have been numerous of Daniel's people who have embraced the gospel, just not all of them though. That's not the same as saying none of them have. I'm not arguing for no gap then.

Or maybe it's just the way you put it that makes it sound like something you perhaps weren't meaning?

jgr said:
The remnant of Daniel's people embraced it, beginning at the birth of the Church, and continuing to this moment for each one who places his or her faith in Christ.

It is the remnant that will be saved (Romans 9:27).

The remnant has embraced the Gospel, and has been, is being, and will continue to be; saved.

Speaking in reference to Jerusalem..

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

DaDad · Aug 18, 2018

DavidPT said:
IMO, throughout some of the chapters in Daniel, there are time indicators, and that all of these are pretty much referring to the same periods of time. A few examples.
Daniel 8:17 ...
Daniel 8:19 ...
Daniel 10:14 ...
Daniel 11:40 ...
Daniel 12:4 ...
Daniel 12:9 ...
Daniel 12:13 ...
...They all refer to the same time of the end.

You're exactly correct. And ALL the evidence points to the era approximate to 1948. So why do the Commentators present ANCIENT fulfillments? Could it be that they NEEDED to show that THEY were the experts, and gave us LIES instead of the TRUE fulfillments?

Thanks,
DaDa

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 18, 2018

DaDad said:
You're exactly correct. And ALL the evidence points to the era approximate to 1948. So why do the Commentators present ANCIENT fulfillments? Could it be that they NEEDED to show that THEY were the experts, and gave us LIES instead of the TRUE fulfillments?

Thanks,
DaDa

Hogwash, and dispensationalist nonsense.......

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...athering-of-israel-in-bible-prophecy.7852172/
Was 1948 the Regathering of Israel in Bible Prophecy?

Eternally Grateful · Aug 18, 2018

Original Happy Camper said:
<<<<<All isreal will be saved>>>>
Literal Isreal or SPIRITUAL Isreal?

Since the context is isreal is blinded in part until the fullness of the gentiles has come (which means there will be a time the partial blindness of isreal is removd) there is only one option. And the words were spoken to the gentile church, which means it excuded them. Thus it must be physical, which is confirmed with all the OT prophesies concerning judah and isreal repening

Eternally Grateful · Aug 18, 2018

Original Happy Camper said:
This statement is not found in the KJV of the Bible.

PLease provide scripture for this statement

Can you show some more? I have no idea where his is quoted from..

All the scripture texts were copied from a nojv bible. So how can you say it is not there,

DaDad · Aug 18, 2018

DavidPT said:
...The first 49 years are part of the preparation for His anticipated coming when that time arrives, and not that He actually comes at the end of the 49 years, and then somehow shows up again some 434 years later ...

I'm reminded of the old song, She'll Be Com'in Round The Mountain, where we imagine some sweet young lass of a girl, only to find out that she's long past dead, and it's her casket that's pending arrival.

Have you ever heard of a "Reality Check"?

Thanks,
DaDad

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 18, 2018

Eternally Grateful said:
There is a problem with your timeline,

Essiah the prince was introduced to isreal as her king 7leteral days before he died, not 3.5 years.

Where is Essiah in the Bible?

Eternally Grateful · Aug 18, 2018

A71 said:
Yes I read it. You are very defensive.
Can you then explain how these things (below)
Will be accomplished, if they are not already accomplished?

to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

I answered your question over and over, i am not being defensive,

I answered your questions, whether you agree or not is not on me, nore does it matter, if hou think it is being defensive, i can not help it.

Now can you answer mine? Can you show me in the passage in leviticus, the passage in jeremiah, and the first part of daniel 9 where the gentile church is referenced. Or any gentile person at all?

I look forward to your answe.

DaDad · Aug 18, 2018

DavidPT said:
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

(whoso readeth, let him understand: )---if that is referring to the prophecies in the book of Daniel, how did Jesus expect anyone reading those prophecies to understand them if the words were still shut up? IMO Jesus began unsealing those prophecies once He came. So, if any of these commentators we see on the web, find in books, etc, if any of their interpretations included the fulfillment of these sealed prophecies before Christ even came, such as where some interpretations insert Antiochus into the texts, those interpretations couldn't possibly be correct since the words would have still been shut up until Jesus came in order to open up those words for understanding.

You presume that Jesus was talking to the 33AD generation. I propose that HE was speaking to our generation. Thus Jesus cites the Book of Daniel which presents "end time" prophecies.

Thanks,
DaDad

DaDad · Aug 18, 2018

DavidPT said:
It couldn't be meaning that though, since those words would have still been shut up during Antiochus' days. ...

Is there ANY CHANCE that people could cease taking verses out of context?

Daniel's account of the angel's words BEGIN AT CHAPTER 10. So to understand the context of Chapter 11, ONE MUST place the HISTORY at the evidence from 10:1. But to start at 10:1, one must resolve the HISTORY of 1:21, where Daniel DIED "in the FIRST YEAR of KING Cyrus". And then figure out that 10:1 PRE-DATED the conquest of Babylon by Cyrus, who was STILL ONLY KING over the Persians.

But who cares? It's much more fun to imagine than to research.

Thanks,
DaDad

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 18, 2018

DaDad said:
You presume that Jesus was talking to the 33AD generation. I propose that HE was speaking to our generation. Thus Jesus cites the Book of Daniel which presents "end time" prophecies.

Thanks,
DaDad

Every generation for the last 2000yrs reads the NT as speaking to their generation.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/this-generation-in-bible.8075362/#post-73003056
"This Generation" in Bible

Luke 11:
50
“that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of the generation, this one.
51
from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, who perished between the altar and the house;
yes, I say to you, It shall be required from the generation, this one.

Revelation 16:6
because blood of saints and prophets they did pour out,
and blood to them Thou didst give to drink, for they are worthy;'

Revelation 18:24
and in her blood of prophets and of saints was found,
and of all those who have been slain on the earth.

Lamentations 4:13
Because of the sins of her prophets,
The iniquities of her priests,
Who are shedding in her midst the blood of the righteous,

A71 · Aug 18, 2018

I meant, You are being defensive when you accuse me of not reading your post.
That said I genuinely cannot see how you have explained Daniel 9:24

I am not sure what you are referencing in your question?
This?

Jeremiah 3
17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Eternally Grateful said:
I answered your question over and over, i am not being defensive,

I answered your questions, whether you agree or not is not on me, nore does it matter, if hou think it is being defensive, i can not help it.

Now can you answer mine? Can you show me in the passage in leviticus, the passage in jeremiah, and the first part of daniel 9 where the gentile church is referenced. Or any gentile person at all?

I look forward to your answe.

DavidPT · Aug 18, 2018

Douggg said:
Speaking in reference to Jerusalem..

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

In that context I have to wonder in which sense He was meaning 'see'? Not all of the time does see mean to see someone physically. I think in this verse 'eido' was used rather than 'optanomai.

eido
i'-do
a primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent optanomai - optanomai 3700 and oraw - horao 3708; properly, to see (literally or figuratively); by implication, (in the perfect tense only) to know:--be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot. Compare optanomai - optanomai 3700.

So maybe by saying, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord, that would be admitting that Jesus was who He claimed to be? Thus they then see Jesus the same way you and I presently do, IOW not physically then.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

I wonder if any of these, the fact they repented and were baptized, said in their hearts or even vocally, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord?

DavidPT · Aug 18, 2018

DaDad said:
Is there ANY CHANCE that people could cease taking verses out of context?

Daniel's account of the angel's words BEGIN AT CHAPTER 10. So to understand the context of Chapter 11, ONE MUST place the HISTORY at the evidence from 10:1. But to start at 10:1, one must resolve the HISTORY of 1:21, where Daniel DIED "in the FIRST YEAR of KING Cyrus". And then figure out that 10:1 PRE-DATED the conquest of Babylon by Cyrus, who was STILL ONLY KING over the Persians.

But who cares? It's much more fun to imagine than to research.

Thanks,
DaDad

Good points. I'm not certain how you yourself are reasoning these things in general, but I will briefly explain how I tend to. Daniel was given visions. Then he was given more visions as time went on. All of these visions connect. So via these visions, Daniel was able to get the bigger picture as time went on, since he was being provided with further info as these visions came to him. IOW like putting a puzzle together. Can't put a puzzle together without all of the parts first.

But a lot of folks, mainly because of commentaries they have read in the past, are convinced these commentators got all of these things correct, so if anyone even dare suggests Daniel 8 and 11, for example, contain events concerning endtimes, how dare one suggest that since that contradicts their favorite commentators. After all, how could these commentators have possibly been wrong? My guess is, the same way anyone can be wrong. None of us have perfect understanding of everything, including these commentators. Maybe these commentators aren't wrong about everything though, but whenever they ignore obvious time factors, and instead of placing those events in the right era of time, they instead place it where all it does is make nonsense out of the texts if they are assumed to be correct.

Eternally Grateful · Aug 18, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Are you saying that every person of Jewish bloodline will be saved?

.

I did not say it, God said at a time on earth (when the fullness if the gentiles has been completed) all who are alibe will repent. Thise are his words not mine.

Now all jews (israel)in all time,, no, we are saved by faith, any jew who rejected christ will nit be saved period

Erik Nelson · Aug 18, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
The Hebrew is really quite complex to me and so the best I can do is at least put up a rough word for word translation from an interlinear, including the strong's #.
One can use a lexicon/concordance to see where these words occur in the rest of the OT [and also the Greek equivalent of them.]
This is a favorite of mine, but there are many lexicon/concordances one get view online.

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

And after<310 the sevens<620> sixty<8346 and two<8147>

shall be cut off<3772> anointed-one<4899>
3772 karath kaw-rath' a primitive root; to cut (off, down or asunder); by implication, to destroy or consume; specifically, to covenant (i.e. make an alliance or bargain, originally by cutting flesh and passing between the pieces):--
4899 mashiyach maw-shee'-akh from 4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically, the Messiah:--anointed, Messiah.

and there is nothing<369> to-him
and the city<5892>
369 'ayin ah'-yin as if from a primitive root meaning to be nothing or not exist; a non-entity; generally used as a negative particle:-
5892 `iyr eer or (in the plural) par {awr}; or ayar (Judges 10:4) {aw-yar'}; from 5782 a city

and the sanctuary<6944> he shall ruin<7843>
6944 qodesh ko'-desh from 6942; a sacred place or thing; rarely abstract, sanctity:--consecrated (thing), dedicated (thing), hallowed (thing), holiness, (X most) holy (X day, portion, thing), saint, sanctuary.
7843 shachath shaw-khath' a primitive root; to decay, i.e. (causatively) ruin (literally or figuratively):--batter, cast off, corrupt(-er, thing), destroy(-er, -uction), lose, mar, perish, spill, spoiler, X utterly, waste(-r).

people<5971> of ruler/chief<5057> the one-coming<935>
5971 `am am from 6004; a people (as a congregated unit); specifically, a tribe (as those of Israel);
5057 nagiyd naw-gheed' or nagid {naw-gheed'}; from 5046; a commander (as occupying the front), civil, military or religious; generally (abstractly, plural), honorable themes:--captain, chief, excellent thing, (chief) governor, leader, noble, prince, (chief) ruler.
935 bow' bo a primitive root; to go or come (in a wide variety of applications):--abide, apply, attain, X be, befall, + besiege, bring (forth, in, into, to pass),

and end-of-him<7093> in-overflowing<7858>
7093 qets kates contracted from 7112; an extremity; adverbially (with prepositional prefix) after:--+ after, (utmost) border, end, (in-)finite, X process.
7858 sheteph sheh'-tef or sheteph {shay'-tef}; from 7857; a deluge (literally or figuratively):--flood, outrageous, overflowing.

and until<5704> end<7093> war<4421>
5704 `ad ad properly, the same as 5703 (used as a preposition, adverb or conjunction; especially with a preposition); as far (or long, or much) as, whether of space (even unto) or time (during, while, until) or degree (equally with):
7093 qets kates contracted from 7112; an extremity; adverbially (with prepositional prefix) after:--+ after, (utmost) border, end, (in-)finite, X process.
4421 milchamah mil-khaw-maw' from 3898 (in the sense of fighting); a battle (i.e. the engagement); generally, war (i.e. warfare):--battle, fight(-ing), war((-rior)).

being decided<2782> ones being desolate<8074>.
2782 charats khaw-rats' a primitive root; properly, to point sharply, i.e. (literally) to wound; figuratively, to be alert, to decide:--bestir self, decide, decree, determine, maim, move.
8074 shamem shaw-mame' a primitive root; to stun (or intransitively, grow numb), i.e. devastate or (figuratively) stupefy (both usually in a passive sense):--make amazed, be astonied, (be an) astonish(-ment), (be, bring into, unto, lay, lie, make) desolate(-ion, places), be destitute, destroy (self), (lay, lie, make) waste, wonder.

What about this then?

And after the seven, sixty & two
shall be cut down the anointed one
and there is nothing to him

and the city
and the sanctuary [masc. noun] it shall corrupt

and people of the commander, the one besieging
to the end flooding in

and until the end, war

pointing & wounding the ones being amazed [desolated] [cp. Rev 17:8]

Eternally Grateful · Aug 18, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
Where is Essiah in the Bible?

Forgive me for a typo or autocorrect, my ipad does that alot

Messiah?

Where is the Evidence of a Gap in the 70 weeks of Dan 9?

Is there a "gap" in the 70 weeks of Daniel 9"

No

Yes

I don't know

Other

Fully fulfilled

Half complete Half Future

All Future

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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