Where is the American Indian that died in 1312?

[lared]

Where is the American Indian that died in 1312 and never heard a word about Jesus, the Bible, or anything Judeo-Christian?

Please identify your religion and which God you worship and explain where this person is.

 

[Serapha]

Where is the American Indian that died in 1312 and never heard a word about Jesus, the Bible, or anything Judeo-Christian?

Please identify your religion and which God you worship and explain where this person is.

Hi there!



If one were to believe the Word of God were truth, one would realize that the proposal you make, just isn't possible.


Please read Romans chapter 1 and 2 where it discusses the invisible qualities of God.



~serapha~



(BTW... since it is an "unorthodox" forum, then the statement might be made that he was a Jaredite, or a descendent of Lehi or one of his brothers, and they, of course, were aware of the plan of salvation described in the book of mormon since they beleive that Jesus came to the Americas.)

 

[Serapha]

oh, wait! wait! wait!

I forgot...

Please identify your religion and which God you worship and explain where this person is.

My religion is "Christian" and my God is the great "I AM".


~serapha~

 

[blessedbe]

Where is the American Indian that died in 1312 and never heard a word about Jesus, the Bible, or anything Judeo-Christian?

Please identify your religion and which God you worship and explain where this person is.

I believe that God will do what He will. It doesn't matter to us, it matters to God, and since God didn't tell us what He would do with those people, we don't know.

What do you think about it?

Revelation does say this though, 20:13; "and the sea gave up the dead witch were in it, and death and Hades ga e up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds."

Before this verse, it spoke of the books being opened, and the book of life being opened, and those in the book of life being judged, which would be Christians, but then it goes into verse 13, which indicates to me that there is a judgemnt also for the ones not written in the book of life, a judgement based on their deeds. I think this covers those that have never heard of the Gospel, those that never had a chance to reject it.

But, I don't really know. I know that I don't worry about it. God is just, and he will do what is just. I do know that!!

 

[Visage of Glory]

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

God, the Eternal Father

He is in spirit prison and is being given the opportunity to accept the glorious Gospel.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Liberal Christian.

The Trinity.

That's for God to decide.

 

[usetheforce]

It is interesting that from most Christians you hear "It is for God to decide" in reference to those who are dead as to what their fate will be.
Yet, they do not give the same leeway, respect, and consideration to those on the earth "currently" who don't know, understand, or believe the same as they.
What's more, such a statement is a non-Biblical one. What happened to proving all things by the Bible?

By the way, with Romans 1 & 2 it is one thing for man to have the Light of Christ within them and to lead their lives accordingly by His Spirit, but it is another to Absolutely KNOW what His Gospel is and then to live their lives accordingly.
Thus, man only acts on what he Feels AND Knows.... If you are getting a less Perfect Knowledge, one cannot be Judged the same as one who has or has access to such knowledge, thus half of the equation is missing, and thus it doesn't apply to the question at hand but is a misinterpretation.

Notice also what it says in Romans 1:

11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift•, to the end ye may be established;

12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

You see, this clearly states that Paul is Imparting something EXTRA that others in the world may not have.
Thus, according to the words of the Lords ancient Apostle himself, there IS more that man will be judged by.

Also, the rest of Romans 1 talks about how those who in the world CAN see His Power, that they "corrupt" truth to like unto themselves.
Thus, if one is corrupting what is True in whatever form, they do not Really Know what is true. They will be Judged for their actions and thoughts, but they cannot be judged by the same standard as those who actually Know.

In Romans 2:1 Paul condemns those who Judge another, for they do the same and hence are also condemned.
Thus, one should not use Romans 1 & 2 to Judge those who know not the Christ.
Romans 2:6 make clear that God will Judge man according to his "Deeds", not by what they didn't know.
Romans 2:14-16 demonstrates that there ARE Righteous who have not the Law, and thus are also justified and will be judged accordingly.
And verse 29 makes clear that those who live the Law in the Heart are Jews, not simply those who are Jews (i.e. Christians) by name.

 

[Beoga]

Christian
Trinity
Hell

 

[Wrigley]

Christian
Trinity
Hell

Brevity is always best.

 

[Der Alte]

Where is the American Indian that died in 1312 and never heard a word about Jesus, the Bible, or anything Judeo-Christian?

Please identify your religion and which God you worship and explain where this person is.

That’s easy!

Rom 4:15 For the law brings wrath, because where there is no law there is no transgression either.

Rom 5:13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world, but there is no accounting for sin when there is no law.

Rom 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse.​

 

[Dark_Lite]

It is interesting that from most Christians you hear "It is for God to decide" in reference to those who are dead as to what their fate will be.
Yet, they do not give the same leeway, respect, and consideration to those on the earth "currently" who don't know, understand, or believe the same as they.

And where on Earth did you get that my statement applies to only dead people?

 

[covenant914]

Christian

Heaven.

All will be saved.

 

[mawuvi]

All will be saved.

Where did you get this? The scriptures say the opposite. In the Bible it makes it clear that in the end it would be like in the days of Noah only a few would be saved, that is only those on the narrow road. Everyone else on the broad road that includes the billions is a gonner

 

[covenant914]

Well...

1 Tim. 2: 3. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Psalms 22:27. All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.

Isaiah 25:6. On this mountain the Lord of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of fat things, a feast of wine on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wine on the lees well refined. 7. And he will destroy on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations. 8. He will swallow up death for ever, and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth; for the Lord has spoken.

That's enough for now. God is a God of love. Anything else you read in the Bible is of man. What can deny God's will?

 

[mawuvi]

Well...

1 Tim. 2: 3. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Well as you can see this is simply a wish on the part of the Saviour that all men might be saved. You see a similar wish or desire expressed by both God and Abraham before God destroys Sodom and Gomorrah
Gen. 18: 20 - 32.
It is the desire that all be saved but according to Christ himself this is not what would happen as majority of mankind would not seize the opportunity. Only those on the narrow road would be saved. These are the saviours own words unless you are saying Christ is lying.

Psalms 22:27. All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.

There is nothing in this verse that says all (including those on the broad road) would be saved. If you notice the verse is saying people would would remember and turn to the Lord. It is not saying everybody, clearly it is talking about those with a disposition to worship God.
The verse you quoted is confirmed and outlined in Matt. 24:14 where Christ says the good news of the kingdom would be preached to the ends of the earth as a witnes before the end comes. This means towards the end God would reach out to all of mankind and those whose heart is rightfully inclined to God would turn onto the narrow road of true worship before the end comes.

Isaiah 25:6. On this mountain the Lord of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of fat things, a feast of wine on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wine on the lees well refined. 7. And he will destroy on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations. 8. He will swallow up death for ever, and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth; for the Lord has spoken.

That's enough for now. God is a God of love. Anything else you read in the Bible is of man. What can deny God's will?

Again nothing here in these verses indicates that all (including those on the broad road) would be saved. As you are quoting Isaiah look at what God say at Isaiah 65:17. The verse you quoted is talking about what God would do after all those on the broad road has been destroyed. It is talking about a new Earth.

AS you can see the Bibles is quite consistent NOT EVERYONE would be saved.

Matt. 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

LDS

God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit

Awaiting judgement, just as all those who have lived and died.

 

[blessedbe]

Where did you get this? The scriptures say the opposite. In the Bible it makes it clear that in the end it would be like in the days of Noah only a few would be saved, that is only those on the narrow road. Everyone else on the broad road that includes the billions is a gonner

I'd take Covenant's God over yours anyday! And you claim that I make God out to be evil because I claim He planned the fall of man.......the God you describe created man who reject Him and the vast majority will go to hell for eternity for it, and He lets it happen! I personally think God is bigger and greater than that!

I don't think Covenant914 is saying that anyone on the broad road gets saved without some sort of punishment first. Those of us who "gladly choose Him now" will have the greatest treasures in heaven. It's not like he/she is saying that when we die, God just welcomes all into heaven no matter what!!! That's absurd, obviously.....I think what Covenant's saying is that God is a God of Love, and if He desires ALL to be saved, then somehow HE will accomplish it.

 

[covenant914]

Thanks blessedbe. I do not rule out the possibility of punishment - just the eternal part.

I do not think that free will ends when the human body dies. We can never truly be separated from God (where is God not?). The separation experienced in Hell is simply an illusion - but an effective one.

The experience of separation from God here on Earth motivates a person to suicide (absence of hope, absence of Love, etc.); the psychic pain of Hell will be much worth.

I don't think it will take many seconds of Hell for the souls to choose (free will) God's eternal love.

All will be saved.

 

[GodsWatchman]

That’s easy!

Rom 4:15 For the law brings wrath, because where there is no law there is no transgression either.

Rom 5:13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world, but there is no accounting for sin when there is no law.

Rom 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse.​

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

___________________________________________________


I think that should do it. Yes - the Bible is quite clear in the matter. I don't care WHO you are or WHERE you are - You are BORN IN SIN.

You cannot escape this. And if you attempt to "squirm" around and come up with ways for God to save "a couple" of those that never heard the Word - then you are attempting to provide ANOTHER WAY. ANOTHER PATH !

I submit to you this simple solution from God:

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Not everyone will enter the Kingdom NOW - But IN DUE TIME ...

Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Of course God isn't going to "Torchure" this man any more than anyone else. The torment is in the realization of your life here - its what you take with you ...

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss (torment): but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Give the Glory to Christ for the FINISHED work on the Cross and the Grace and Mercy of God - and put away all this sillyness of "torment/torchure/eternalArmTwisting" ...

Instead, be as your Master and desire MERCY and not SACRIFICE.

Get an in depth discussion on this Good News right here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t674654

 

[mawuvi]

I'd take Covenant's God over yours anyday! And you claim that I make God out to be evil because I claim He planned the fall of man.......the God you describe created man who reject Him and the vast majority will go to hell for eternity for it, and He lets it happen! I personally think God is bigger and greater than that!

I don't think Covenant914 is saying that anyone on the broad road gets saved without some sort of punishment first. Those of us who "gladly choose Him now" will have the greatest treasures in heaven. It's not like he/she is saying that when we die, God just welcomes all into heaven no matter what!!! That's absurd, obviously.....I think what Covenant's saying is that God is a God of Love, and if He desires ALL to be saved, then somehow HE will accomplish it.

Can you show any scripture to back up any of these claims? Can you show where God says he punishes those on the broad road before he would save them. One thing I avoid as much as possible in Bible discussions is personal opinions so if there is a scripture to back up these claims by all means I would look at them otherwise they become personal opinions and is moot.

Finally I have never ever said ANYWHERE God punishes people in a hell for eternity so I don't understand why you attribute that to me in your post. You are reading too much into what I said. If you have seen me make this claim of eternal torment anywhere kindly cut and paste it