• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Where is Christ and what is He doing?

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,689
6,107
Visit site
✟1,048,001.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
More specific meaning the high priest entered into the holy place daily appearing before the Lord.

But it says they were before the Lord in the courtyard too.

And is it more specific than this one?

Lev 16:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron, when they offered before the LORD, and died;
Lev 16:2 And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.

The priest was not allowed to go into the MHP anytime he wanted because he would die. Why would he die? Because he would be entering God's presence.


Can you show me the text?

Do you have more text other than the Hebrews quote?
Hebrews is one of the only places in the NT that speaks specifically of the fulfillment of the type, and it often shows contrast.

What will you sugguest next? Throw away the Old Testament?
No, I suggest that when the NT interprets the OT that we ought to go with the reality not the type.


Because the bible explicitly said it was patterned after the heavenly (would you ever try to make a fake $13 bill?). And Many saw visions of actual heavenly sanctuary scenes: Isaiah, Daniel, John. And lastly unlike you who gets paid to preach and uphold SDA doctrines but do not, I believe the writings of EGW to be the testimony of Jesus.
And that is what it comes down to?

EGW? Doctrinal statements?

And you wonder why I can't uphold that over the Bible?
 
Upvote 0
O

OntheDL

Guest
The priest was not allowed to go into the MHP anytime he wanted because he would die. Why would he die? Because he would be entering God's presence.
Nope. Because he would disobey God's specific command. Wages of sin is death.
Can you show me the text?
Does it matter? A text is going to change your mind?

No, I suggest that when the NT interprets the OT that we ought to go with the reality not the type.
The antitype never contradicts the type. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been the antitype.

And that is what it comes down to?

EGW? Doctrinal statements?

And you wonder why I can't uphold that over the Bible?
Of course it comes down to that. The spirit of prophecy is one of the two identifying characteristics of the remnant.

As an individual believer, you have every right to believe what you desire. But when you are paid by the tithe money from the church as you claimed, you forfeit that right. You must uphold what the church teaches officially. That's like I get paid by my employer, but I badmouth the company policy that makes them different. How long will I have a job when they find out?

You need to either sit down and bite your tongue or stop cashing your paychecks then you can say whatever you want. Is that fair?
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,689
6,107
Visit site
✟1,048,001.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Nope. Because he would disobey God's specific command. Wages of sin is death.

He gave the reason right in the text :)

And it says where God's presence is.

Does it matter? A text is going to change your mind?
Yes, a text matters. Do you have one?

The antitype never contradicts the type. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been the antitype.
So Jesus was from Levi?

Of course it comes down to that. The spirit of prophecy is one of the two identifying characteristics of the remnant.
But a prophet does not contradict the Bible. So perhaps you need to re-assess.

As an individual believer, you have every right to believe what you desire. But when you are paid by the tithe money from the church as you claimed, you forfeit that right. You must uphold what the church teaches officially. That's like I get paid by my employer, but I badmouth the company policy that makes them different. How long will I have a job when they find out?

You need to either sit down and bite your tongue or stop cashing your paychecks then you can say whatever you want. Is that fair?
Just like Luther did?

You want your current ministers to take the party line no matter what the study of the Scriptures says? Am I a minister of the Lord or of the conference?

I may indeed be minister of neither in the official capacity soon. But that does not change whether you have Scripture evidence or not.

If every minister said only what their church did, where would you be today?
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,689
6,107
Visit site
✟1,048,001.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And of Adventist doctrines are not based on one isolated text. There are other supporting evidence which had been shown to you in many previous discussions.

Can you show me the multiple texts that support the date 1844?

Not the judgment, just the date please.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,689
6,107
Visit site
✟1,048,001.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Actually the stakes are alot closer to the HP than the altar.



What direction would you say they are from the altar?


Can you show me the text?

Does it matter? A text is going to change your mind?


Please explain the following:

Lev 1:11 and he shall kill it on the north side of the altar before the LORD, and Aaron's sons the priests shall throw its blood against the sides of the altar.


It says it is to the north of the altar--before the Lord.

Now perhaps the altar was down a bit to the south. I will have to look that up. But they were killed to the north of it. And this is all just a verbal dance as this was in the courtyard and not in the holy place.

No one suggests they killed the animal in the holy place.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,689
6,107
Visit site
✟1,048,001.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Notice these texts, where “before the Lord” did not mean the holy place. Apparently the term is more flexible than thought.



(Exo 23:17) Three times in the year shall all your males appear before the Lord GOD.

(Lev 23:40) And you shall take on the first day the fruit of splendid trees, branches of palm trees and boughs of leafy trees and willows of the brook, and you shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.

(Lev 16:30) For on this day shall atonement be made for you to cleanse you. You shall be clean before the LORD from all your sins.



(Num 5:18) And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD and unbind the hair of the woman's head and place in her hands the grain offering of remembrance, which is the grain offering of jealousy. And in his hand the priest shall have the water of bitterness that brings the curse.

(Num 14:37) the men who brought up a bad report of the land--died by plague before the LORD.


(Num 15:15) For the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you, a statute forever throughout your generations. You and the sojourner shall be alike before the LORD.


It would appear that sentipente has a point.




The God of all the earth who does not live in houses made by man has a long reach.

In fact I see texts speaking of Him appearing above the ark, before the entrance to the tent of meeting, etc.

Hebrews says that Christ entered His presence into Heaven itself. And yet the Scriptures tell us that even the heavens don't contain Him. So that works for me.

We have direct access to a new and living way into God's presence, and have had it since Jesus ascension and ministration for us.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,689
6,107
Visit site
✟1,048,001.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Do you have more text other than the Hebrews quote?

The whole section in Hebrews shows that Jesus ascended to heaven and fulfilled the day of atonement type in a way that went beyond the OT description.

Here is my view on it which I posted once before. Feel free to comment:



Heb 9:1 Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness. 2 For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a second section called the Most Holy Place,
4 having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron's staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant. 5 Above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail. 6 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties, 7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.


The author begins with a review of the sanctuary service noting that only once per year did the High Priest go into the most holy.

This sets the stage for the whole comparison in the following verses. The Day of Atonement was the highpoint of the Jewish typology. The author’s whole thrust throughout the book is that Jesus is superior to Moses, to angels, His covenant is superior, He is the superior High Priest (which he is enlarging on now), and He is the superior sacrifice. He is superior in every way, and those who are considering falling away from Him, perhaps back to Judaism, in the face of persecution, are in great danger.

It would be completely illogical for him to raise the high point of the typology and then go on to conclude that Jesus did not actually fulfill it. He does show that Jesus fulfilled not only the highpoint, but the whole thing.

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. 13 For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

A. Christ entered ONCE for all into the holy places , SECURING ETERNAL REDEMPTION.

B. It mentions that Jesus is the High Priest, and entered in by means of His own blood, not that of goats and calves. The comparison is striking. The High Priest went in every year and offered things that could not really cleanse. Jesus entered in ONCE FOR ALL TIME with His own blood and bought eternal redemption.

C. The sprinkling of defiled persons, and ashes of a heifer is a reference to Numbers 19 and the procedure of cleansing after touching a dead body, etc. Jesus is seen as fulfilling this.

D. Exodus 24 relates the initial covenant agreement with the people which included the blood of bulls. It also blends this with the dedication of the sanctuary.

Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. 16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you." 21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. 22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. 23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.


The new covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ. Just as the first covenant involved blood so this one did too. Here everything is sprinkled. This is clearly a reference to the services of the inauguration of the covenant and the dedication of the temple.

Now if Christ fulfilled dedication that included entering the most holy place as Moses anointed all of the vessels.



Lev 8:10 Then Moses took the anointing oil and anointed the tabernacle and all that was in it, and consecrated them.


Therefore Davidson, Hasel, etc. take the view of the inauguration, admitting that Christ went into the Most Holy Place. There is no way to inaugurate it all and fulfill the type if not.

This of course goes against the traditional view, represented by the following quotes:


Sabbath, March 24th, 1849, we had a sweet, and very interesting meeting with the Brethren at Topsham, Me. The Holy Ghost was poured out upon us, and I was taken off in the Spirit to the City of the living God. There I was shown that the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, relating to the shut door, could not be separated, and that the time for the commandments of God to shine out, with all their importance, and for God's people to be tried on the Sabbath truth, was when the door was opened in the Most Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary, where the Ark is, containing the ten commandments. This door was not opened, until the mediation of Jesus was finished in the Holy Place of the Sanctuary in 1844. Then, Jesus rose up, and shut the door in the Holy Place, and opened the door in the Most Holy, and passed within the second vail, where he now stands by the Ark; and where the faith of Israel now reaches. {RH, August 1, 1849 par. 2}

The door was not opened until 1844, which is incompatible with an inauguration. which includes the most holy, as described in the type.


The enemies of the present truth have been trying to open the door of the holy place, that Jesus has shut, and to close the door of the most holy place, which He opened in 1844, where the ark is, containing the two tables of stone on which are written the ten commandments by the finger of Jehovah. {EW 43.1}


Here she describes it in terms of the open and shut doors. It was again not until 1844 that He entered, again, incompatible with the dedication pictured in Hebrews.

Ellen White is also in perfect accord with the statement of Hiram Edson in his account of the cornfield vision where the idea was first raised:

“Heaven seemed open to my view, and I saw distinctly and clearly, that instead of our High Priest coming out of the Most Holy of the heavenly sanctuary to come to this earth on the tenth day of the seventh month, at the end of the 2300 days, that he for the first time entered on that day the second apartment of that sanctuary; and that he had a work to perform in the Most Holy before coming to this earth.

Uriah Smith
http://www.adventistarchives.org/doc...-07/index.djvu
We are now prepared for the inquiry, Has the
cleansing of the Sanctuary commenced'?. It was told
Daniel,, "Unto two" thousand and three hundred days
then shall ,the Sanctuary be cleansed." Clearly
enough those days are in the past. Unless: there-
fore the words of the angel have failed, a work has
commenced called the cleansing of the Sanctuary
but there is no work either in the type or out of the
type, to which this expression ever has been, or ever
can be, applied, except to the entrance of the high
priest into the Most Holy place, and his ministration
while there. …
God's people are permitted to look
by an eye of faith, into the inner apartment of the
true Tabernacle : they there behold the ark of God,
and their attention is called at once to the law con-
tained within it ; and the fact that there is now a spe-
cial movement taking place in regard to that violated
law, is proof that the second apartment of the Sanc-
tuary has been opened, and the ark of the testament
is seen.

Just as EGW does Smith relates the moving of Jesus into the Most Holy place to the opening of a door which had previously been closed. Andross in replying to Ballenger seems to be the first one who used an inauguration theory.

So if the pioneers were so clear, why have many of our scholars, writing the official apologetics in the Daniel and Revelation series, admitted to Jesus entering into the MHP for a dedication? Because Hebrews is clear that all of the vessels were cleansed. They just hope to avoid the implication that there was also day of atonement imagery.


24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Now we begin to see clear day of atonement references:

A. Verse 25 makes it plain that Jesus paralleled and exceeded the day of atonement ritual. Once a year the High Priest would go into the holy places with blood not his own. But Christ did it once, going into God’s presence. This reference to the every year ministry is an allusion back to the first verses, outlining that this happenened on the day of atonement. The dedication is not in view here because it was carried out not by the high priest but by Moses, (the leader of the people, Jesus is both Priest and King), and it was not done every year.

It is the High Priest who Jesus is contrasted with, who had one distinct role, emphasized at the beginning of the chapter in the description of the earthly service.

He is contrasted with the YEARLY work, year after year, of the High priest. These are day of atonement references.

B. He appeared ONCE at the end of the ages to put away sin. There is no more applying of blood for atonement later.

C. He appeared in God’s presence. In the earthly type God made it clear where His presence was:
Exo 25:21 And you shall put the mercy seat on the top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the testimony that I shall give you. 22 There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel.

Lev 16:2 and the LORD said to Moses, "Tell Aaron your brother not to come at any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat that is on the ark, so that he may not die. For I will appear in the cloud over the mercy seat.

Num 7:89 And when Moses went into the tent of meeting to speak with the LORD, he heard the voice speaking to him from above the mercy seat that was on the ark of the testimony, from between the two cherubim; and it spoke to him.


These texts make it clear that God met with them above the mercy seat. Note also this text from Hebrews expressing a similar note:

Heb 4:14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Here we see reference again to the High Priest and we may approach him at the throne of grace which certainly seems a parallel idea to the mercy seat, where God said He would meet with them.

Moreover we have another text in Hebrews that relates to Christ’s Priestly ministry that also references cleansing:

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification ([FONT=&quot]καθαρισμὸν[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ποιησάμενος[/FONT]) for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Here we see the cleansing for sins offered in the past tense. There is no delayed second offering in 1844 to complete the atonement. This is the fulfillment of the ministration of blood in the day of atonement.

Heb 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sin? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sin every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins

Here again we have reference to the yearly sacrifices of blood and goats, another reference to the day of atonement. The old service was an annual reminder of sin, but Christ’s actually took away sin.

I am not the only one who sees these as day of atonement allusions either. Here is a quote from William Johnsson in the Daniel and Revelation committee work in his article "Day of Atonement Allusions". He lists 9:24, etc. as a passage among those that clearly allude to the day of atonement.

The context clearly points to a Day of Atonement allusion (high priest...yearly...blood [cf. 9:7]

Here he is again on 10:1-4

The specifications of "year after year" and "blood of bulls and goats" again indicate a Day of Atonement setting.

He then lists 8 other possible allusions which might point to the Day of Atonement.

Here is Alwyn Salom in his appendix article in the Daniel and Revelation committee series verse 12:

The characteristic service of the Day of Atonement here referred to (cf. vs 7), was located in the inner compartment of the earthly sanctuary.

And on 24:

The reference in the context of the Day of Atonement service of the earthly high priest is not to the outer compartment of the sanctuary.

Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.


Jesus offered for all time one sacrifice and then SAT DOWN at the right hand of God. His work of applying the blood was done. He now intercedes from God's right hand in our behalf. It is contrasted with the earthly priests who can never take away sins. The earthly priest never sat down because his work never was finished. But Christ’s work is finished.

Jesus by ONE sacrifice perfected those who are being sanctified.

It should be noted that we now have a reference to the daily, with every priest, not just the High Priest. So now we have had reference to the red heifer, the inauguration of covenant, the dedication of the temple, the yearly apex of the day of atonement with the high priest, yearly, blood of bulls and goats entering with blood not his own. All of the sacrifices are summed up here. Jesus OFFERED for all time one sacrifice. He ministered it once, then sat down.


While we emphasize the type and its fulfillment the whole text, like the rest of Hebrews, is actually a contrast. Just as Jesus was better than Moses and better than angels His ministration is better.

The old High Priest would die and needed to be replaced as we learned in an earlier chapter. But Jesus had an indestructible life. The old High Priest had to be from the tribe of Levi. But Jesus was from Judah, after the order of Melchizedek. He was Priest and King. In the old service the High Priest went through the same cycle every year entering only once per year (limited access), only with blood not his own, only with incense to shield him, and with everything perfect or he would be destroyed. But this High Priest entered not with blood of bulls and goats, and not over and over, but once, for all with his own blood. He did not enter only once and then withdraw quickly to repeat it the next year but SAT DOWN in God’s presence and has made a new way for us to have direct access to God . That was the very thing they did not have in the old system. Only the High Priest had access. But now we can come boldly before the throne of grace through the new and living way opened for us.

The very issue over τα αγια (ta hagia) also misses the contrast. The earthly is spelled out in terms of a two apartment sanctuary. But the limited access of the old sanctuary is not what is pictured in the heavently sanctuary. Instead we see that it is heaven itself:

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Here it emphasizes that Christ entered heaven itself to appear in the presence of God. For those who say that ta hagia ALWAYS means the holy place compartment, if the holy place is heaven itself....what is the most holy in your scheme? There is nothing else to be! Heaven is heaven and it is not divided into two compartments. That was an illustration. But the heavenly reality is not a two apartment building but heaven itself in God's presence. Christ entered there for us to present His sacrifice before the Holy God. We make a mistake when we interpret the fulfillment in light of the type. The book of Hebrews shows over and over again how the type was not the reality. The reality far transcends the type.

Note this reference from the Daniel and Revelation committee in regards to the translation of ta hagia. These are our own denominational scholars who are tasked with defending the Adventist view:

The committee believes that ta hagia should be regarded as a general term that should be translated in most instances as “sanctuary” unless the context clearly indicates otherwise (such as in chapter 9:2, 3).

Jesus entered once for all into God's presence, and reigns with the Father on the throne. He intercedes for us from that throne.

Rom 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died--more than that, who was raised--who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Act 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.

Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God

1Pe 3:22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

It does show him standing up for Stephen, but still at God's right hand.

Act 7:55 But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
Act 7:56 And he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

The sitting down, completing the atoning application of blood, llustrates His finished work. He now is waiting for His enemies to be made His footstool, He is reigning with God.



Heb 10:16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,"
Heb 10:17 then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."
Heb 10:18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.


If the covenant was sealed by the death of Christ, and the covenant was that God would remember their sins no more, what more is to be done? where is there further "offereing for sin?"


Heb 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.

There is a new and living way to enter the holy places by the blood of Christ and we have access to the great Priest.


This idea of a completed offering of the sacrifice is not in accord with Adventist teaching that an additional ministration started in 1844.

Now the day of atonement in totality is not complete yet. Jesus has yet to exit the temple and greet the people. That happens at His coming. Nor has the final putting away of sinners happened yet. That happens at the great white throne judgment. But the offering of the blood of the sacrifice and the atonement made is done. Now the worshipers either accept it or not, just as in the type where they either availed themselves of the sacrifice or were “cut off.”
 
Upvote 0
O

OntheDL

Guest
He gave the reason right in the text :)

And it says where God's presence is.
Because God specified when the high priest can enter into the MHP. Apparently the shekinah, the glory of God wasn't the issue but when.

Yes, a text matters. Do you have one?
The bible is not explicit about the exact location of the stakes. But rabinical records showed the stakes and later the brass rings in Solomon's temple were on the opposite side of the laver. Thus on the north west of the altar. The point is that stakes were closer to the HP than the altar was.

So Jesus was from Levi?
Irrelevant. How does it prove your argument? Yes Jesus's priesthood is superior to the levitical priesthood. No arguments. However the HP and MHP ministries represented different stages of salvation. The high priest represented not only Jesus, but also common believers. That's the point you have missed.

But a prophet does not contradict the Bible. So perhaps you need to re-assess.
There are no contradictions. How can the same source contradict itself? Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

I have asked you where you pastor if indeed you are what you claim. I'd like to hear what the conference who employs you think and what the local churches who pay the tithe that goes to your checks think. So far I have not received this information from you.

If you so believe Ellen White was a false prophet as you have posted for the past year, you ought to have some guts and integrity to stand behind your statements.

Just like Luther did?
Luther nailed 95 thessis to the door of the catholic church. All you have done is making anonymous statements on the internet to undermind our believes.

You want your current ministers to take the party line no matter what the study of the Scriptures says? Am I a minister of the Lord or of the conference?
Of course, our denomination has stated believes. The recognition of EGW as a prophet is one them. You get paid for teaching these believes. If you don't agree which is fine with me, you need to refuse to take the paychecks.

I may indeed be minister of neither in the official capacity soon. But that does not change whether you have Scripture evidence or not.

If every minister said only what their church did, where would you be today?

Funny you should ask, these believes made us who we are today. And the early pioneers had the guts to leave their own original denominations.

When I learned the sabbath truth, the same week I left the Baptist church I was going to.
 
Upvote 0

NightEternal

Evangelical SDA
Apr 18, 2007
5,639
127
Toronto, Ontario
✟6,559.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
I have asked you where you pastor if indeed you are what you claim. I'd like to hear what the conference who employs you think and what the local churches who pay the tithe that goes to your checks think. So far I have not received this information from you.

If you so believe Ellen White was a false prophet as you have posted for the past year, you ought to have some guts and integrity to stand behind your statements.

Of course, our denomination has stated believes. The recognition of EGW as a prophet is one them. You get paid for teaching these believes. If you don't agree which is fine with me, you need to refuse to take the paychecks.


Why don't you just back off of him already and stick to the issues? You are interjecting a theological discussion with questions and demands of a personal nature.

It's not enough you imply Tall is lying about his profession, you cast about ridiculous ultimatums and expect him to comply.

Tall has no obligation to tell you anything about where he pastors or the identity of his churches. Why, so you can cause trouble for him and his family? You are deluded if you think he would do such a thing. :doh:

I am a tithe paying member of the church and I have no problems whatsoever with Tall's questions.

This is why our church does not have a congregational system where the church membership calls the shots and leads the pastor about by the ear: To avoid power trips and financially driven attempts at clergy control from people like you. When that money left your hand and went into the tithe plate, it was no longer yours. In the SDA system you do not pay Tall, the conference does.

Why don't you help him work through these questions instead of demanding his resignation?

http://www.christianforums.com/t5426833-hard-to-watch-this-happen.html

God will look after Tall and lead where He desires without 'help' from you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sophia7
Upvote 0

JonMiller

Senior Veteran
Jun 6, 2007
7,165
195
✟30,831.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Tall has said that he might step down from being a pastor as a result of these positions. I think that he recognises that this is not a thing to jump into, and so is discussing things and waiting and making sure he is sure before he leaves his profession.

JM
 
Upvote 0

sentipente

Senior Contributor
Jul 17, 2007
11,651
4,492
Silver Sprint, MD
✟54,142.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Politics
US-Others
Tall has said that he might step down from being a pastor as a result of these positions.
Why should he step down unless he feels a need to preach against what he still questions. I once knew a Conference Ministerial Director who no longer subscribed to the Investigative Judgement. Don't ask; Don't tell. Life must always contain questions. Only death answers all questions.
 
Upvote 0
O

OntheDL

Guest
OntheDL, you are obviously unaware of the number of Adventist pastors who suddenly become aware of the problems with our theology the moment they get off the conference pay roll.
Suddenly? Did you miss what has been taught in the SDA colleges and schools? If this was prophecized by Ellen White as the omega apostasy, there'd been an alpha, right?
 
Upvote 0
O

OntheDL

Guest
Why should he step down unless he feels a need to preach against what he still questions. I once knew a Conference Ministerial Director who no longer subscribed to the Investigative Judgement. Don't ask; Don't tell. Life must always contain questions. Only death answers all questions.

That's the problem. Conference leaders will never publicly speak out against Ellen White's testimony because they know the SDA people who pay tithe still recognize its authority.
 
Upvote 0

Adventist Dissident

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2006
5,389
524
Parts Unknown
✟520,432.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Suddenly? Did you miss what has been taught in the SDA colleges and schools? If this was prophecized by Ellen White as the omega apostasy, there'd been an alpha, right?

this is such Brain washing. Ellen white when she wrote about the "Alpha of Apostasy" was writing against those who were questioning her authority. A.T. Jones, E.J. Waggoner, A.F. Ballenger, E.S. Ballenger, D.M. Canwright , J.H. Kellogg a number of minister and a number of Doctors.

Ellen white knew that if people found out she was not inspired they would then question, find the flaws and leave.
 
Upvote 0

tall73

Sophia7's husband
Site Supporter
Sep 23, 2005
32,689
6,107
Visit site
✟1,048,001.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Because God specified when the high priest can enter into the MHP. Apparently the shekinah, the glory of God wasn't the issue but when.


I don't agree with you, but for the moment let's just take the important part of what you said. The shekinah glory was there.

Thanks, that kind of makes the point doesn't it?

The bible is not explicit about the exact location of the stakes. But rabinical records showed the stakes and later the brass rings in Solomon's temple were on the opposite side of the laver. Thus on the north west of the altar. The point is that stakes were closer to the HP than the altar was.


So you don't have a text, I provided one that said north, not north west, and now you are taking rabbinical sources over the Bible? Why did you ask if a text mattered to me when it doesn't to you?

Again, you have no text. Nor did you address the texts I posted which clearly showed that "before the Lord" did not refer only to the holy place, or even right in front of it, so this whole stakes issue is only a distraction.

Irrelevant. How does it prove your argument? Yes Jesus's priesthood is superior to the levitical priesthood. No arguments. However the HP and MHP ministries represented different stages of salvation. The high priest represented not only Jesus, but also common believers. That's the point you have missed.

It is quite relevant to the argument. In the type it was a Levite. in the reality it was not. A reason was given.

The same is true here. It says He entered not a two-compartment tent, as the type would indicate, but heaven itself. Unlike your stakes argument I do have a text. But you don't want to believe it.

There are no contradictions. How can the same source contradict itself? Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

Sorry, assumes facts not in evidence, that they are from the same source.


Now, since the post from here on out turns to personal matters, why did you not address the Hebrews post?


I have asked you where you pastor if indeed you are what you claim. I'd like to hear what the conference who employs you think and what the local churches who pay the tithe that goes to your checks think. So far I have not received this information from you.

I will leave if I can't resolve the issues, as alreadys stated. But I am not on your timetable to do that.

If you so believe Ellen White was a false prophet as you have posted for the past year, you ought to have some guts and integrity to stand behind your statements.

See above. I am not on your timetable to make any decisions, nor will I ever decide to take EGW statements in place of biblical evidence for a claim that must be shared with non-adventists because they do not accept her authority.

Also, you yourself accept the new view of the daily which EGW condemned. Any reason?

You also admitted once already, unless you have changed your view, that Christ went int to the MHP to innaugurate, which does not agree with EGW's statements.

Care to explain?

Luther nailed 95 thessis to the door of the catholic church. All you have done is making anonymous statements on the internet to undermind our believes.


Actually I have entered into dialogue on those beliefs with the hope of reconciling my issues. This is a board for discussion, not a place to simply sign off on the 28 and call it a day. And Luther was also looking for public dialogue by posting something for a debate. He did not at that time think that he would eventually be removed over the issue.

The larger point is that I will not just cease to study something because we have a belief on it already.



Of course, our denomination has stated believes. The recognition of EGW as a prophet is one them. You get paid for teaching these believes. If you don't agree which is fine with me, you need to refuse to take the paychecks.

Funny you should ask, these believes made us who we are today. And the early pioneers had the guts to leave their own original denominations.

When I learned the sabbath truth, the same week I left the Baptist church I was going to.

A. Not all left. Some were put out, just as Luther was.

B. Who said I am not leaving? I have been clear for some time that I may have to. Just because you made a one week decision doesn't mean I have to. I prefer to study out things thoroughly before making life commitments and unsettling many people. If you were thoroughly convinced after one week, good for you. But I won't accept your timetable just because it is what you think I should do.


Now, if you really want the best for your church and your tithe dollar then show me where the Bible upholds your view. That would solve my problem and yours.
 
Upvote 0

freeindeed2

In Christ We Are FREE!
Feb 1, 2007
31,130
20,046
56
A mile high.
✟87,197.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Actually I have entered into dialogue on those beliefs with the hope of reconciling my issues. This is a board for discussion, not a place to simply sign off on the 28 and call it a day. And Luther was also looking for public dialogue by posting something for a debate. He did not at that time think that he would eventually be removed over the issue.
It seems to be increasingly difficult for open discussion to actually take place here.

The larger point is that I will not just cease to study something because we have a belief on it already.
Very admirable, Tall. An example all would do well to follow.

Who said I am not leaving? I have been clear for some time that I may have to. Just because you made a one week decision doesn't mean I have to. I prefer to study out things thoroughly before making life commitments and unsettling many people. If you were thoroughly convinced after one week, good for you. But I won't accept your timetable just because it is what you think I should do.
Absolutely. God bless as you continue in your study.
 
Upvote 0