Where In The Bible Do The Jews Reject The Trinity?

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LoAmmi

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Of course Judaism apparently evolved gradually from the religions of the Canaanites. Many of the stories and poems in the Bible existed earlier in the Ugarit religion. When Yahweh is "riding on the clouds" and so forth, He is essentially taking the position of Baal in the pantheon. And apparently the Canaanite gods changed roles and ranks in the pantheon depending on the locale and time period. The monotheists didn't become the majority in Judaism until they returned from exile. (At least that is my understanding from limited reading. I might have an inaccurate picture of it.)

Whenever I read that stuff, I find a lot more opinion than facts.
 
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cloudyday2

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Whenever I read that stuff, I find a lot more opinion than facts.

I guess it's the opinions of people who have looked at the clues that are available. As more clues are found, they change their opinions. It's the best we can do.
 
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smaneck

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I might not have seen the same thing.

The work I've seen was done by William Dever who was the head of the department where I got my master's degree. The book where he presents the evidence is entitled "Did God have a Wife?" Dever has an interesting history. He started out as a Congregational minister (never defrocked, merely unsuited as he put it once.) Then, in the course of his archaeological work he converted to Judaism which was his religion when I knew him. I think now he is more or less agnostic, but he is one of the leading biblical archaeologists in the world. As a graduate assistant my office was right next to where he used to lecture. The lectures were so good I could never hope to get anything done when he was in there.
 
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cloudyday2

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The work I've seen was done by William Dever who was the head of the department where I got my master's degree. The book where he presents the evidence is entitled "Did God have a Wife." Dever has an interesting history. He started out as a Congregational minister (never defrocked, merely unsuited as he put it once.) Then, in the course of his archaeological work he converted to Judaism which was his religion when I knew him. I think now he is more or less agnostic, but he is one of the leading biblical archaeologists in the world. As a graduate assistant my office was right next to where he used to lecture. The lectures were so good I could never hope to get anything done when he was in there.

That's neat that you knew Dever. I have seen his books on Amazon and they look interesting.

BTW: According to Wikipedia, Dever is criticized by his colleagues for being a "maximalist" (i.e. believing that iron age Israel actually existed). Apparently the mainstream view right now is that iron age Israel was a legend, because there is so little archaeological evidence that the people living in Israel were any different culturally from their neighbors. (At least that is my understanding.)

So my point is that Dever gives more credit to Biblical narrative than most of his peers, but even he says that Israeli culture evolved gradually from Canaanite culture.
A 2013 lecture by Dever on the Exodus is available on YouTube. He argues for existence of a historical Israel in the Iron Age, contrary to "revisionists" and "minimalists" such as Niels Peter Lemche. He concludes, however, in this lecture that in the much greater part the Exodus is a myth or "pseudo-history," and that the early Israelites were mostly indigenous Canaanites
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_G._Dever
 
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smaneck

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That's neat that you knew Dever. I have seen his books on Amazon and they look interesting.

BTW: According to Wikipedia, Dever is criticized by his colleague for being a "maximalist" (i.e. believing that iron age Israel actually existed). Apparently the mainstream view right now is that iron age Israel was a legend, because there is so little archaeological evidence that the people living in Israel were any different culturally from their neighbors. (At least that is my understanding.)

The "minimalist" take the position that nothing in the Bible can relied upon as history. A true 'maximalist' would assume that whatever is in the Bible is correct and go looking for it in archaeology. Dever cannot really be described as either one. I think it is true, that the Hebrew people were closely related to the Canaanites. The major difference is that the Hebrews start out as pastoral nomads whereas the Canaanites were largely settled. Also, the Canaanites appear to adopt iron technology sooner than the Hebrew people do. One thing in the biblical account which archaeology does not substantiate is the account of widespread genocide being committed against the Canaanites by the Hebrew people. I find that rather a relief, myself although it might be disturbing to biblical inerrantists. That being the case, I think we have to assume that both cultures assimilated to one another. As for the Exodus, I think there were at least some Hebrew people who immigrated to Egypt and later returned but they could not have been as numerous as the biblical account suggests. So presumably most of the later Israelites were originally Canaanites.
 
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ChetSinger

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Here is an interesting book. I haven't read this, but the author is a professor.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Jewish-Gospels-Story-Christ/dp/1595588787

Boyarin claims that Christianity was simply a natural evolution of one of the many diverse strains of Judaism. He uses the trinity as an example of a belief that already existed in Judaism prior to Christianity. (I believe he said it was a two-part trinity instead of a three-part trinity.)

So maybe we can say Judaism rejected the trinity in the late 1st century and early 2nd century as Rabbinical Judaism became the only form of Judaism?
Thanks for that. It's findings seem in line with what I've found in this earlier book by rabbinical scholar Alan Segal:

http://www.amazon.com/Two-Powers-He...37952729&sr=8-1&keywords=two+powers+in+heaven

It makes a lot of sense to me. The apostles gave Jesus honor that was to be given to God only, yet they continued to consider themselves orthodox Jews. How was that possible? It was because the idea of a second physical manifestation of YHWH was already widespread and orthodox in the Judaism of the day.

There's a lot of related material consistent with this, too, such as the title "Word of the Lord" being used as a divine stand-in for YHWH in the Aramaic Targums, and then assigned by John to Jesus.

Cool stuff, imo.
 
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Robban

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Hi All.
As one of Jehovah's witnesses its no secret that we do not think the trinity to be scriptural. The Jews (for the most part) also reject this doctrine....
But my question is, when did the Jews first begin to reject it? Are there any recorded 'rejections' in the scriptures? Or are all the written objections by the Jews from a much later time?

Many Thanks in advance

At Sinai, in and with that all said as in one voice, "We will do and we will hear."

"You shall have no other gods......."

"Hear O Israel, G-d is our G-d, G-d is one."
 
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cloudyday2

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Thanks for that. It's findings seem in line with what I've found in this earlier book by rabbinical scholar Alan Segal:

http://www.amazon.com/Two-Powers-He...37952729&sr=8-1&keywords=two+powers+in+heaven

It makes a lot of sense to me. The apostles gave Jesus honor that was to be given to God only, yet they continued to consider themselves orthodox Jews. How was that possible? It was because the idea of a second physical manifestation of YHWH was already widespread and orthodox in the Judaism of the day.

There's a lot of related material consistent with this, too, such as the title "Word of the Lord" being used as a divine stand-in for YHWH in the Aramaic Targums, and then assigned by John to Jesus.

Cool stuff, imo.

Thanks, I added it to my wish list. :)
 
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ChetSinger

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Hi All.
As one of Jehovah's witnesses its no secret that we do not think the trinity to be scriptural. The Jews (for the most part) also reject this doctrine....
But my question is, when did the Jews first begin to reject it? Are there any recorded 'rejections' in the scriptures? Or are all the written objections by the Jews from a much later time?

Many Thanks in advance
Hello! I've read that a binitarian Godhead was considered orthodox in the Judaism of the second temple period.

It was declared heretical by the rabbis sometime during the second century, after the rise of Christianity.

There's an introduction to the subject here:

http://twopowersinheaven.com/

A bibliography of selected scholarly works on the subject is here:

http://twopowersinheaven.com/?page_id=16
 
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LoAmmi

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Hello! I've read that a binitarian Godhead was considered orthodox in the Judaism of the second temple period.

It was declared heretical by the rabbis sometime during the second century, after the rise of Christianity.

There's an introduction to the subject here:

http://twopowersinheaven.com/

A bibliography of selected scholarly works on the subject is here:

http://twopowersinheaven.com/?page_id=16

I find it fascinating that the Bibliography pretty much is all about Jesus and Christianity. I'd love to see this in sources that don't seem setup to defend Christianity.
 
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cloudyday2

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I find it fascinating that the Bibliography pretty much is all about Jesus and Christianity. I'd love to see this in sources that don't seem setup to defend Christianity.

Here is an article about another scholar criticizing Boyarin's book ( https://kavvanah.wordpress.com/2012/05/30/peter-schafer-responds-to-daniel-boyarin/ ). What is interesting to me is that both scholars agree that binitarianism was accepted in Judaism before the time of Jesus. Their argument is over whether trinitarianism was also accepted. I assume that both of these scholars are experts on Judaism. The last sentence says regarding binitarianism that "for the reader familiar with the scholarship this notion does not come as a shattering innovation."
The Jewish Gospels: The Story of the Jewish Christ By Daniel Boyarin
The most recent voice in this chorus is Daniel Boyarin… announced with great fanfare, that the evolving Christology of the New Testament and the early Church—that is, the idea of Jesus being essentially divine and human, the divine-human Messiah and Son of his Father in heaven—is deeply engrained in the Jewish tradition that preceded the New Testament. Theologians would call this idea “binitarianism,” that is, the notion of two divine figures of equal substance and power, mostly an older and a younger God (or Father and Son).

But for Boyarin this extraordinary claim is not enough. He lets himself be gladly carried away by the assertion that even what theologians call the Trinity (the notion of three divine figures, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) was present among the Jews well before Jesus made his appearance. It is worth quoting this even more audacious claim:

Fortunately, Boyarin forgets about the Holy Spirit and the Trinitarian claim, and focuses instead on the binitarian idea of two divine powers as part and parcel of the pre-Christian Jewish tradition. It must be said at the start that for the reader familiar with the scholarship this notion does not come as a shattering innovation.
 
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LoAmmi

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ChetSinger

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I find it fascinating that the Bibliography pretty much is all about Jesus and Christianity. I'd love to see this in sources that don't seem setup to defend Christianity.
Daniel Boyarin is a Jewish scholar, as was Alan Segal. Dr. Segal doesn't defend Christianity in his book; he just reports on the writings and beliefs of the time.
 
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LoAmmi

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Daniel Boyarin is a Jewish scholar, as was Alan Segal. Dr. Segal doesn't defend Christianity in his book; he just reports on the writings and beliefs of the time.

I commented on the bibliography. I'd have to read the books but I'm sure I wouldn't be convinced. I fail to see why Christians claiming something would have necessarily meant Jews had to reject it. It would be pretty easy to continue with a two powers thing but say Jesus was but a man and all other claims were wrong. It isn't like we stopped believing in G-d because Christians claimed Jesus was G-d.
 
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ChetSinger

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QUOTE="LoAmmi, post: 68370782, member: 304002"]I commented on the bibliography. I'd have to read the books but I'm sure I wouldn't be convinced. I fail to see why Christians claiming something would have necessarily meant Jews had to reject it. It would be pretty easy to continue with a two powers thing but say Jesus was but a man and all other claims were wrong. It isn't like we stopped believing in G-d because Christians claimed Jesus was G-d.[/QUOTE]
Well, it was accepted, and then it wasn't. Why? Dr. Segal suspected the rise of Christianity may have had something to do with it.

Btw, Jesus applied this belief to himself during his trial and it's what got him killed. If you read the account of it, he claims to be the cloud-walking Son of Man from Daniel 7. That passage was one of the foundational scriptures behind the Two Powers in Heaven belief and his claim to it got him immediately convicted of blasphemy and sent to be executed.
 
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LoAmmi

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Btw, Jesus applied this belief to himself during his trial and it's what got him killed. If you read the account of it, he claims to be the cloud-walking Son of Man from Daniel 7. That passage was one of the foundational scriptures behind the Two Powers in Heaven belief and his claim to it got him immediately convicted of blasphemy and sent to be executed.

Wouldn't be blasphemy but I'm not getting into it.
 
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