Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

Major1 · Apr 3, 2018

keras said:
Heaven is not mentioned in this prophecy. Jesus has come from heaven, verse 16, to commence His Millennium reign.
There is no scripture that says God will take people to heaven. The 'rapture to heaven' theory is false teaching.

Now honestly, when the Bible says .....
"We will meet Him in the air, and we will be with Him forever more"........

You then do not understand that to be heaven?

I mean, does that really require a response from us who accept the fact from the Bible that God lives in heaven.

The Bible also says that NOW, today Jesus is at the right hand of God the Father.

So for some reason you can not understand that we will meet Jesus in the air.....
then go to be with Him where He is at????

John 14:1-4.............
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. "

Come on brother!

You can certainly refuse to accept the Rapture but you can do better than this argument to validate your choice.

Major1 · Apr 3, 2018

DavidPT said:
Since Zephaniah 1:14-18 has been brought up in this thread, let's examine that passage by comparing it with other passages.

Zephaniah 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Let's compare to the great tribulation, which for one is meaning the 42 months in Revelation 13.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Obviously the events recorded that occur within this 42 months per Revelation 13 can't be occurring during the time of the events recorded in Zephaniah 1:14-18.

That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress(Zephaniah 1:15)---and still referring to this same day---And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung(Zephaniah 1:17)---therefore can't possibly be taking place when the following is taking place instead----And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?(Revelation 13:4)---And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations(Revelation 13:7).

Like I have mentioned in the past, the wrath 1 Thessalonians 5 indicates that those of the day are not appointed to, it is not meaning the great tribulation, it's meaning the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord follows after the tribulation. Therefore Pretrib is based on a false premise from the get go, since that position typically claims the wrath one is not appointed to, it is meaning the wrath concerning the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This is the time period Zephaniah 1:14-18 has in view, what I have underlined above. The text indicates it follows after the tribulation of those days, the tribulation of those days obviously referring to this same 42 months recorded in Revelation 13.

Good comment!

Major1 · Apr 3, 2018

Kaon said:
It isn't found ANYWHERE that we don't have to follow God's commandments. Yet, I often hear of an "old law, and new law" a if God is a different God from the time of Noah.

We are expected to be obedient to God - that means we need to know His commandments and follow them. Faith without works is DEAD, and you can say you have faith and believe all day long - but the demons also believe! If you do not substantiate your faith by exercising obedience (such that you show you trust in God's promises when He says He will reward the righteous, and those who follow His commandments.)

But, there is no rapture. That is not how God operates. He will push and strengthen us instead of "removing" us.

My dear friend. God is the SAME today as He was in the days of Noah. But He works in a different way now than then.

Did you get saved by getting into a wooden boat with a bunch of animals or did you get saved in belief in the shed blood of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sin.

Hebrews 1:1-2 ...........
"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe."

YES we are to follow the commands of God but we are not saved by doing so.

NO ONE WAS EVER SAVED BY KEEPING THE LAW!!!!!!!!!

We are all saved by faith plus NOTHING.

Have you read Ephesians 2:8-9.......
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9not by works, so that no one can boast."

DID God say that?
Can God lie?

Since you are so very wrong of the works needed to be and stay saved, how can you now be so sure that there is not a Rapture. If I were you, I would stay of the internet and do some more Bible study my brother.

BABerean2 · Apr 3, 2018

Major1 said:
Agreed! As I have stated, we are saved by FAITH in the Lord Jesus and not by faith in the Rapture.

And then it is just as Biblically true that if a man has heard the Gospel and rejected Christ, he then will not be able to be saved after the Rapture.

Many of the proponents of your doctrine claim otherwise.
They claim a large number of modern Jews will be saved at the Second Coming of Christ.

If your statement above about nobody being saved after the the rapture is correct (and I agree with you), and the pretrib doctrine was correct, then how do you explain those under the blood in Revelation 12:11?
You are contradicting yourself.

"Indeed. Wrath and tribulation are two different words but that is hardly the point.

The "Wrath" of God will be seen during the last 3 & 1/2 years of the Tribulation period.

Romans 2:5 says...........
“But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed”."

First you turned the word "tribulation" into the word "wrath", and now you have turned the word "day" into "3 & 1/2 years", in Romans 2:5.

.

BABerean2 · Apr 3, 2018

Major1 said:
The Doctrine of Grace was in the Bible for 1500 years before Luther brought it out.

Have you ever read anything from the Early Church Fathers, like Irenaeus, who lived long before the time of Luther?
Luther became famous for standing up against the Papacy.
However, he was not the first person in the history of the Church to understand the doctrine of Grace.

Some of the Early Church Fathers also wrote about the resurrection of the Church in the link below.

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner

http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.

iamlamad · Apr 3, 2018

DavidPT said:
Since Zephaniah 1:14-18 has been brought up in this thread, let's examine that passage by comparing it with other passages.

Zephaniah 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Let's compare to the great tribulation, which for one is meaning the 42 months in Revelation 13.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Obviously the events recorded that occur within this 42 months per Revelation 13 can't be occurring during the time of the events recorded in Zephaniah 1:14-18.

That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress(Zephaniah 1:15)---and still referring to this same day---And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung(Zephaniah 1:17)---therefore can't possibly be taking place when the following is taking place instead----And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?(Revelation 13:4)---And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations(Revelation 13:7).

Like I have mentioned in the past, the wrath 1 Thessalonians 5 indicates that those of the day are not appointed to, it is not meaning the great tribulation, it's meaning the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord follows after the tribulation. Therefore Pretrib is based on a false premise from the get go, since that position typically claims the wrath one is not appointed to, it is meaning the wrath concerning the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This is the time period Zephaniah 1:14-18 has in view, what I have underlined above. The text indicates it follows after the tribulation of those days, the tribulation of those days obviously referring to this same 42 months recorded in Revelation 13.

Since you don't seem to think the "Day of the Lord" and the days of great tribulation will happen at the same time, please delineate for us, in Revelation, WHERE: what verses to what verses:
1. The Day of the Lord...beginning
2. The days of great tribualtion: beginning and ending

iamlamad · Apr 3, 2018

Major1 said:
Indeed. Wrath and tribulation are two different words but that is hardly the point.

The "Wrath" of God will be seen during the last 3 & 1/2 years of the Tribulation period.

Romans 2:5 says...........
“But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed”.

Jere. 30:23...........
"Behold the storm of the Lord! Wrath has gone forth, a whirling tempest; it will burst upon the head of the wicked."

Nahum 1:2................
"The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and wrathful; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies."

Rom 1:18..........
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth."

The Old Testament prophets often wrote of a day in the future, the "day of wrath" and that will be the Day of the Lord which will be Armageddon.

Zephaniah 1:14-15............
"The great day of the LORD is near- near and coming quickly. The cry on the day of the LORD is bitter; the Mighty Warrior shouts his battle cry. That day will be a day of wrath- a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness".

You then posted..........Rev 12:11----
" And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Then you said...........
In the verse above a person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.
You are very mistaken my dear friend. And they overcame him = continues the explanation concerning why Satan is thrown down from heaven to earth. The pronoun they refers to the brethren on earth.
The blood of the Lamb refers to the death of Jesus of course.. Because of the death of Jesus, the brethren conquered Satan. They believed that Jesus is Lord.

The church is NOT in view in chapter 12 as the WOMAN is the Nation of Israel.
If anything at all, the people in Rev. 12 in my opinion would then be the Old. Test. saints that Jesus took with Him on His assentation to heaven.

As far as when the Rapture was developed......it makes no difference at all.

The Doctrine of Grace was in the Bible for 1500 years before Luther brought it out.
If we follow your logic then the doctrine of Grace by which YOU are saved does not exist.

The Rapture was in the Bible for 2000 years and it was developed exactly at the time God wanted it to be.

"The "Wrath" of God will be seen during the last 3 & 1/2 years of the Tribulation period."
This is a true statement. But it does not tell the whole truth. John shows us that the Day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal, before the 70th week has started. Therefore the entire 70th week is wrath. Therefore each trumpet judgment will come with His wrath.

iamlamad · Apr 3, 2018

keras said:
Heaven is not mentioned in this prophecy. Jesus has come from heaven, verse 16, to commence His Millennium reign.
There is no scripture that says God will take people to heaven. The 'rapture to heaven' theory is false teaching.

And I can say just the opposite: it is false teaching that at the rapture the Bride of Christ DON'T go to heaven. Whoever is pushing this false doctrine has not read John 14 with the intent of the Author.
FACT: Jesus will remain in heaven for the entire 70th week.
FACT: Jesus will come for His Bride before the 6th seal begins His Wrath.
FACT: Jesus will take His Bride to heaven, so they will not face His wrath.

BABerean2 · Apr 3, 2018

iamlamad said:
Therefore the entire 70th week is wrath.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon believers, based on the text above.

.

iamlamad · Apr 3, 2018

DavidPT said:
lol

And since you apparently are not looking to be in the GT, only one way that can be possible---the GT doesn't occur within your lifetime. Meaning that you literally physically die before this event ever occurs. Being raptured first doesn't count as something not occurring in your lifetime.

David, if you wish to remain behind and see the Beast, go right ahead! You can ignore God's "escape" plan, and remain behind if you wish. But those with FAITH in the scriptures BELIEVE in His escape, and will certainly take it, and rest out the 7 years in heaven. The Bride probably won't even think of you down here trying to hide from the Beast and His armies. The Bride will be too busy shouting and rejoicing along the streets of Gold.

iamlamad · Apr 3, 2018

Dig4truth said:
I believe I did put it the correct way.
The restrainer will be removed prior to the Great Tribulation and it is clear that Yeshua returns after the GT.

There's those pesky little verses that speaks about;

Rev 13:6-8 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. NASB

Saints who are written in the Book of Life are still on earth when the anti-messiah unleashes his fury on the world.

Sorry, but another pesky little verse you MISSED: it is only a REMNANT left on earth. Check the last verses of Rev. 12. Then go back and read again about the great crowd too large to number already in heaven before the week begins.

iamlamad · Apr 3, 2018

Dig4truth said:
Amen, even Yeshua prayed;

"I have given them your word, and the world hated them, because they do not belong to the world — just as I myself do not belong to the world. 15 I don’t ask you to take them out of the world, but to protect them from the Evil One. 16 They do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. John 17:14-16 CJB

Has He taken any out of the world during the entire church age past> No, of course not. This verse is not speaking of the end times, but the church age.

iamlamad · Apr 3, 2018

Dig4truth said:
v.1 But in connection with the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah and our gathering together to meet him..

v.3 For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed.. CJB

I would submit that the "rapture" is not in view but rather the resurrection. To put it another way, the only rapture is the one associated with the resurrection.

Dig, you are simply not digging deeply enough.

OF COURSE there is a resurrection associated with the rapture event, for it is written that the dead in Christ rise first.
Question: in 2 Thes. 2:3, part B, is the man of sin revealed at that time in Paul's argument?

iamlamad · Apr 3, 2018

Kaon said:
It isn't found ANYWHERE that we don't have to follow God's commandments. Yet, I often hear of an "old law, and new law" a if God is a different God from the time of Noah.

We are expected to be obedient to God - that means we need to know His commandments and follow them. Faith without works is DEAD, and you can say you have faith and believe all day long - but the demons also believe! If you do not substantiate your faith by exercising obedience (such that you show you trust in God's promises when He says He will reward the righteous, and those who follow His commandments.)

But, there is no rapture. That is not how God operates. He will push and strengthen us instead of "removing" us.

"But, there is no rapture"
You can be wrong if you choose, and it seems you have chosen. If you don't like what Paul wrote, then simply tear it out of your bible! But don't come on a public forum and deny what is written. You will be caught every time.

keras · Apr 3, 2018

Major1 said:
Now honestly, when the Bible says .....
"We will meet Him in the air, and we will be with Him forever more"........

You then do not understand that to be heaven?

I mean, does that really require a response from us who accept the fact from the Bible that God lives in heaven.

The Bible also says that NOW, today Jesus is at the right hand of God the Father.

So for some reason you can not understand that we will meet Jesus in the air.....
then go to be with Him where He is at????

John 14:1-4.............
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. "

Come on brother!

You can certainly refuse to accept the Rapture but you can do better than this argument to validate your choice.

Neither of your favorite Bible quotes above, say that Heaven is the destination. It is to 'where Jesus is' at the time. That is; after He has departed from heaven and come to the earth for His Mill reign.

But the main reason that I refute any 'rapture to heaven', is the many prophesies saying how the faithful people of God will be gathered into all of the holy Land before the Return and then in the Millennium, they will be His priests and rulers. Revelation 5:10, 20:6
Plus how we are exhorted to 'endure until the end'. Revelation 13:10, 14:12
The scriptures saying 'we are not appointed to God's wrath', that you rapture believers love to tout, is God's promise of protection; not removal.

Again: Where in Revelation is a rapture mentioned?
Answer: NOWHERE.

precepts · Apr 3, 2018

DavidPT said:
I am apparently failing to grasp how any of the above infers that the context of the book of Revelation's 1st resurrection is heaven.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The above is the first resurrection, meaning this----and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. When do they initially do that? Obviously after the time of the two beasts per Revelation 13 is already in the past, meaning the 42 months the beast is allowed to continue. and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---this obviously takes place during this same 42 months mentioned in Revelation 13. It would be during this 42 months that led to their martyrdom, the reward then being the first resurrection, meaning after the time of the 42 months in Revelation 13. Therefore the timing of the first resurrection is the 2nd coming of Christ. When Christ returns, His destination is Earth not heaven.

And I'm failing to grasp how you don't see the connection between what I said and Rev 20:4.

precepts · Apr 3, 2018

Christianity is overrun by antichrists:

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Jo 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

And a million and one interpretations equals a million antichrists.

drjean · Apr 3, 2018

The standard "Come UP Hither" Chapter 4 is considered to be representative of the taking UP of the believers (the church) prior to the tribulation. After that time no where is the church mentioned, as prior to that in Revelation. Each time after John is told to "come and see" instead.

It's important to compare Scripture with Scripture and there is plenty spelling out the timeline etc through out the OT prophecies and what Paul wrote as well.

precepts · Apr 3, 2018

drjean said:
The standard "Come UP Hither" Chapter 4 is considered to be representative of the taking UP of the believers (the church) prior to the tribulation. After that time no where is the church mentioned, as prior to that in Revelation. Each time after John is told to "come and see" instead.

It's important to compare Scripture with Scripture and there is plenty spelling out the timeline etc through out the OT prophecies and what Paul wrote as well.

Yet you're still embellishing the facts.

Kaon · Apr 3, 2018

Major1 said:
My dear friend. God is the SAME today as He was in the days of Noah. But He works in a different way now than then.

Did you get saved by getting into a wooden boat with a bunch of animals or did you get saved in belief in the shed blood of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sin.

Hebrews 1:1-2 ...........
"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe."

YES we are to follow the commands of God but we are not saved by doing so.

NO ONE WAS EVER SAVED BY KEEPING THE LAW!!!!!!!!!

We are all saved by faith plus NOTHING.

Have you read Ephesians 2:8-9.......
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9not by works, so that no one can boast."

DID God say that?
Can God lie?

Since you are so very wrong of the works needed to be and stay saved, how can you now be so sure that there is not a Rapture. If I were you, I would stay of the internet and do some more Bible study my brother.

No one is saved on obedience alone because we come from a demoted race of carnal beings - humans. We no longer have the title of "Son(s) of God" biologically (that includes Seth.)

I have not seen a proponent of obedience stipulate that obedience is a requirement for salvation. We know that Christ is the way, the Truth and the LIFE. Through Him we have life - not by the Law.

However, that doesn't mean we are given carte blanche to dismiss God's commandments as if He does not expect us to be obedient to Him. He is our Father; what Father would renege on their rules for their children? He has already softened His heart by giving us a chance at Life, and dying for us.

God said that He does NOT change - He does not "do things differently." In fact, prophecy, physics and mathematics given by God are a way to ascertain His signature. He told us everything, and He has told/shown us His commandments are not void. His commandments are followed by those who love Him - as His son (the Word of God) stated. If Christ was persecuted as He was, why does the Church believe a mass of us will be "raptured" from tribulation God tell us is refinement - to make us white as snow/pure silver/pure gold?

If any entity contradicts God, it is a liar.

If you are under the impression that God wants your obedience as an "oblation" for Salvation, then you are still missing it. You should want to be obedient to your Father.

Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

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