Where in Revelation is a Rapture Mentioned?

sparow said:

As I understand the Rapture is a doctrine replacing the first resurrection; what the first and second coming means when Christ is always with us is a mystery. The first death that everyone dies is considered sleep, the second death is death and this is the death Christ refers to when telling the Pharisees they will not taste death until the see the kingdom come.

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May I say to you that in my understanding, The Rapture IS the 2nd phase First resurrection.

The 1st death in the Scriptures is the fact that "Death" is inherent in EVERY individual when he is born, this death is the "First" death!

Then in Rev 2:11, Rev 20:6 & 14, and Rev. 21:8, we see that the "Second Death" means permanent separation from God and being cast into a place called the "Lake of Fire".

Exactly correct just above above

The resurrection to the second death of a man's spirit will be displayed at the great white throne judgment .... all of them unbelievers from the beginning of human creation [Revelation 20:11-15]

None of these will be found in the Lord's book of life

leras said:

You will not find it anywhere because it just is not there. What people forget is that when John was called up to see what was going to happen, he saw what was happening in heaven and not on earth.

Jesus actually had two books with Him, the first gets opened to show why peoples names will not be found in the second book, which is opened in Chapter 20. The world as we know it ends with the sixth trumpet in chapter 6 : "And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind. And heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and the rich, and the chief captains, and the mighty, and every bondman and every freeman, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains; and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of his wrath is come; and who is able to stand?" (Rev 6:12-17)

Everything that happens after chapter six happens in heaven, or as Jesus referred to it on the cross, as Paradise. That is where he will sort the sheep from the goats, and then in chapter 20, the final judgment will be passed over the goats and they will be sent to forever pay for their sin.

There are a number of chapters 17 and 18 specifically, that shows what will happen to those people who formed part of the harlot, so they were sitting in church but following their own doctrine, and not the true gospel of Jesus as the perfect Lamb that did everything He had to when He was on earth. He does not have to come back to earth as we then make Him out to be a liar, as He said on the cross "It is finished". So he completed everything He had to do on earth.

Very quick take on my way of believing.

For those who wants to read my full take, download the book at http://www.shamaministries.org.za/boeke/The Revelation of John Revealed.pdf

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Well my friend, I did some reading of your production and I wish I could say that I agree with you but alas I can not.

You say that when believers die today that go to the Paradise side of Sheol.

I do not believe that to be correct. It is my understanding that when Christ ascended to heaven He took with Him those Old Test. saints who were in Paradise side of Sheol, but today, when a believer dies, his spirit goers to heaven because that is where Jesus is, not in Sheol.

You see, nobody could enter heaven until Jesus Rose from the dead, so all of the O.T. saints were held in the Paradise side of Sheol until that time when Jesus died on the cross for them.

During the three days that Jesus was in the grave, Jesus went down into Hell and preached to the prisoners there. Preaching to The O.T. saints, not the ones being punished on the other side of Hell, whose punishment was sealed for all of Eternity.

When Jesus came out of the grave, so did the O.T. saints, and all of the O.T. saints then entered heaven. This place was no longer needed and was done away with when we could enter Heaven directly. That they came out of the graves, shows that the O.T. saints came out of Paradise.

Ephesians 4:8.......
"Wherefore he saith, when he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men."

My comment

When a man dies his spirit is returned to his Maker [Ecclesiastes 12:7] .... and there is no awareness of time passing [Ecclesiastes 9:5]

No man has gone to heaven except the One who has come down from heaven [John 3:13]

The dead man will awake to either the first "type" of resurrection to immortality .... or to the second "type" .... the second death of his spirit

This is true of all men including Enoch, Elijah, and the token resurrection of a few at the Lord's resurrection for demonstration .... their spirits were returned as any man and they are waiting just the same

The common belief that there are humans in "heaven" and already made immortal is false

Here is the schedule for the "first" resurrections to immortality: the pre-trib for all of the dead in Christ and those living at the time, the post-trib for the martyrs of the tribulation and the Lord's two prophets

Straightshot said:

My comment

When a man dies his spirit is returned to his Maker [Ecclesiastes 12:7] .... and there is no awareness of time passing [Ecclesiastes 9:5]

No man has gone to heaven except the One who has come down from heaven [John 3:13]

The dead man will awake to either the first "type" of resurrection to immortality .... or to the second "type" .... the second death of his spirit

This is true of all men including Enoch, Elijah, and the token resurrection of a few at the Lord's resurrection for demonstration .... their spirits were returned as any man and they are waiting just the same

The common belief that there are humans in "heaven" and already made immortal is false

Here is the schedule for the "first" resurrections to immortality: the pre-trib for all of the dead in Christ and those living at the time, the post-trib for the martyrs of the tribulation and the Lord's two prophets

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Is Enoch a Human?
Is Elijah a Human?

What the Scriptures says is that the "spirts" of humans are in heaven. There bodies are in the grave until 1 Thess. 4:17 which is part of that 1st Resurrection which is the Rapture. Then the dead in Christ will be raised and united with their spirt and forever more will be with the Lord.

Major1 said:

All I or anyone else can do is quote the Scriptures for you.

up to you to do the study, reading the Word and praying that the Holy Spirit will teach you and guide you into all truth.

If you reject what I am saying to you, or make light of it, that is on you and not me my dear friend.

With all due respect to you, what I have said is actually very basic Bible teaching. IT seems to me that you have either not tried to learn this stuff or have actively rejected the teaching of the Scripture.

I will again endeavor to show you Bible 101.

At the consummation of the First Resurrection there are three companies of believers who will have been raised at different times. I am saying 3 "stages" so as to make it more understandable for you.

(1) When our Lord was crucified on the Cross, we read in Matthew 27:51-52.........
“And, behold the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose”.

Obviously that is after the crucifixion and if "and many bodies of the saints which slept arose" does not mean a resurrection will you then please enlighten all of us on the meaning of that verse.

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Lazarus have been resurrected by Jesus few years before Jesus' crucifixion ---does that mean that Lazarus have received an immortal body (?)... and that he have physically ascended to heaven with Jesus when Jesus have ascended to Heaven ?
There is no mention in the Bible that the -many saints- that have been physically resurrected Matthew 27:51-52.........have ascended to Heaven with Jesus ...if you can find a Bible verse saying that they have ascended in their resurrected body in Heaven then show us that verse...By doing so you will be able to prove your point.
Jesus have descended to Sheol to preach the Gospel to the SPIRITS /SOULS who where there ....The SOULS of them in Sheol [the OT believers]who have accepted Jesus Have ascended to Heaven with Jesus ....none of those OT Saints in Sheol have ascended to Heaven in a resurrected immortal physical body.

Major1 said:

(2) There is the second stage of the First Resurrection which is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16........
“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".

Again, if this is not another resurrection, then please tell us that it is.

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That resurrection will happen UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS 1 Thessalonians 4:15.Jesus tell us about His Coming in Matthew 24:29-31Jesus will be visible in the clouds ---we will meet Jesus in the clouds in the air....1 Thessalonians 4:17

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain UNTO the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Nobody will go to heaven after the resurrection .We will reign with Jesus here on the Earth.

Major1 said:

(3) The third and final stage of the First Resurrection occurs about seven years after the resurrection of saints at Christ’s coming at the rapture. “Those resurrected near the close of the seven years’ period of the tribulation are the multitude of believers who were led to the truth through the witness of the 144,000.” Because they would not receive the mark of the beast in their hands and foreheads, they were martyred. These are brought forth from the dead at the end of the Tribulation just before Christ comes to earth to reign for one thousand years.

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Revelation 20:4-6
Blessed are those who are part of the first resurrection.
That is not a ''third'' stage ....that is the same resurrection mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 .....it happen after the 42 months reign of the Beast ...Unto the coming of Jesus 1 Thessalonians 4:15 /Matthew 24:29-31

Major1 said:

Is Enoch a Human?
Is Elijah a Human?

What the Scriptures says is that the "spirts" of humans are in heaven. There bodies are in the grave until 1 Thess. 4:17 which is part of that 1st Resurrection which is the Rapture. Then the dead in Christ will be raised and united with their spirt and forever more will be with the Lord.

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Enoch's body is not on in the grave, neither is Elijah's.
Where does the scripture say that God causes a human to exist without a body?
What you are talking about here is a Greek interpretation that does not reflect the Jewish nature of scripture.

"What the Scriptures says is that the "spirts" of humans are in heaven. There bodies are in the grave until 1 Thess. 4:17 which is part of that 1st Resurrection which is the Rapture. Then the dead in Christ will be raised and united with their spirt and forever more will be with the Lord."


My comment

Heaven is a state of existence .... the state of immortality

No man has obtained this level yet

A man's spirit is returned to the Lord from whence it came and held for future disposition

And a man's temporary flesh and blood body is turned to dust shortly after he dies

The Lord will awake a believer's spirit for resurrection and the believer will be fashioned a new imperishable body for eternity

Straightshot said:

"What the Scriptures says is that the "spirts" of humans are in heaven. There bodies are in the grave until 1 Thess. 4:17 which is part of that 1st Resurrection which is the Rapture. Then the dead in Christ will be raised and united with their spirt and forever more will be with the Lord."


My comment

Heaven is a state of existence .... the state of immortality

No man has obtained this level yet

A man's spirit is returned to the Lord from whence it came and held for future disposition

And a man's temporary flesh and blood body is turned to dust shortly after he dies

The Lord will awake a believer's spirit for resurrection and the believer will be fashioned a new imperishable body for eternity

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Here the timing of that event...UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD>

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain UNTO the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


Jesus tell us about HIS COMING IN THE CLOUDS in Matthew 24:29-31.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Major1 said:

May I say to you that in my understanding, The Rapture IS the 2nd phase First resurrection.

The 1st death in the Scriptures is the fact that "Death" is inherent in EVERY individual when he is born, this death is the "First" death!

Then in Rev 2:11, Rev 20:6 & 14, and Rev. 21:8, we see that the "Second Death" means permanent separation from God and being cast into a place called the "Lake of Fire".

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Well so far you version of the first and second appears OK but the second phase seems to be extra-Biblical.

Anguspure said:

Enoch's body is not on in the grave, neither is Elijah's.
Where does the scripture say that God causes a human to exist without a body?
What you are talking about here is a Greek interpretation that does not reflect the Jewish nature of scripture.

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Correct! That is exactly my point. To be in heaven, both had to receive glorified bodies just as Jesus did.

Enoch and Elijah had human bodies which means their body and spirit went to heaven at the same time.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 gives you the answer in Scripture.........

"and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it".

Death results in the separation of the body and the soul. Our bodies go to the grave and our spirits go to the Lord. The separation continues until the resurrection.

John 5:28-29.......... “Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment”.

Right now the souls of believers who have died are in heaven. At the Rapture, their bodies will be resurrected and joined to their spirits, and they will enjoy the eternal perfection of body and soul.

sparow said:

Well so far you version of the first and second appears OK but the second phase seems to be extra-Biblical.

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Really? I think that when you investigate it, you will find it to be totally Biblical.

Riberra said:

Lazarus have been resurrected by Jesus few years before Jesus' crucifixion ---does that mean that Lazarus have received an immortal body (?)... and that he have physically ascended to heaven with Jesus when Jesus have ascended to Heaven ?
There is no mention in the Bible that the -many saints- that have been physically resurrected Matthew 27:51-52.........have ascended to Heaven with Jesus ...if you can find a Bible verse saying that they have ascended in their resurrected body in Heaven then show us that verse...By doing so you will be able to prove your point.
Jesus have descended to Sheol to preach the Gospel to the SPIRITS /SOULS who where there ....The SOULS of them in Sheol [the OT believers]who have accepted Jesus Have ascended to Heaven with Jesus ....none of those OT Saints in Sheol have ascended to Heaven in a resurrected immortal physical body.


That resurrection will happen UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS 1 Thessalonians 4:15.Jesus tell us about His Coming in Matthew 24:29-31Jesus will be visible in the clouds ---we will meet Jesus in the clouds in the air....1 Thessalonians 4:17

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain UNTO the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Nobody will go to heaven after the resurrection .We will reign with Jesus here on the Earth.


Revelation 20:4-6
Blessed are those who are part of the first resurrection.
That is not a ''third'' stage ....that is the same resurrection mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 .....it happen after the 42 months reign of the Beast ...Unto the coming of Jesus 1 Thessalonians 4:15 /Matthew 24:29-31

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Surely you know that Lazarus was risen by Christ but then he did die some years later. At his death his spirit went to be with the Lord in heaven as does all believers. His body remains in the grave waiting on the Rapture. You do not seem to know the event that happened to Lazarus my friend. Resurrection refers to putting on a new, glorified body, while re-animation, or resuscitation, mean raising the person in the old, mortal body in which they died. Lazarus was not "resurrected" in the sense that he received a glorified body.

I agree with you that New Test. saints have not be resurrected. That event is the Rapture which you quoted in 1 Thess. 4:15 and I agree with it and you.

Some where you have misunderstood me. I did not say and did not mean to infer the Old Test. saints received a body and went to heaven.

Their "spirits" which were in the "Paradise" side of Sheol were taken by Jesus to heaven when He assended and that is recorded in Ephesians 4:8-9.......
"Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men. Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things."

"Captivity" were the Old Test. saints. "Captive" means heaven.

Now, today there is no one in the Paradise side of Sheol as the spirits of the saved go to be with the Lord Jesus in heaven.

When Jesus told us what happened to the rich man and Lazarus after they died, there was no mention of a holding period or an interval of time between their death and their destination. Lazarus lived in poverty and want while the rich man lived in splendor and plenty but when they died, they went separate ways.

In Luke 16:22-24 Jesus said............
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.”

The wicked lost are still in the "Torments" side of Sheol and will be there until the 2nd Resurrection which is the resurrection unto death. All of the lost in Torments will have their bodies resurrected and reunited with their spirits and will be cast into the lake of fire.

Now then, the opposite is just as true. When Stephen was stoned for proclaiming the gospel, he sees the Lord, Jesus Christ standing at the right hand of God in heaven.

Acts 7:55-60 says..............
“But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul. While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he died”

Riberra said:

Here the timing of that event...UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD>

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain UNTO the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


Jesus tell us about HIS COMING IN THE CLOUDS in Matthew 24:29-31.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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This is a common mistake. Some times it is on purpose when someone wants to reject the Rapture and then MAKE THE SCRIPTURES SAY WHAT THEY WANT THEM TO SAY.

I have learned over the years to accept the Bible as it is written and do not try to explain it, just believe it.

When we read the quote you posted from Matthew 24:29-31 what we see clearly written is...........
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days.....................".

What is in view in Matthew 24:29-31 my brother is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, which IS NOT WHAT WE SEE IN 1 Thess. 4:17.

1 Thess. 4:17 is the Rapture which is 7 years before the 2nd Coming of Christ.

Major1 said:

Correct! That is exactly my point. To be in heaven, both had to receive glorified bodies just as Jesus did.

Enoch and Elijah had human bodies which means their body and spirit went to heaven at the same time.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 gives you the answer in Scripture.........

"and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it".

Death results in the separation of the body and the soul. Our bodies go to the grave and our spirits go to the Lord. The separation continues until the resurrection.

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The way I see it is that the nephesh returns to God, the same nephesh that God breathes into Adam at His creation. The word used says nothing about human consciousness being preserved after death apart from post ressurection in a ressurection body.

As a result I am of the opinion that a person who is asleep (as in dead), is in fact dead. The persons "name" is remembered by God, which in the broadest of terms is the same as soul, and it is only when God calls us from the grave at the end of the age that concious existence is resumed.

John 5:28-29.......... “Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment”.

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Right now the souls of believers who have died are in heaven. At the Rapture, their bodies will be resurrected and joined to their spirits, and they will enjoy the eternal perfection of body and soul.

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I see no floaty diembodied spirit thing going on in the Bible as far as human beings are concerned.

This is informative: www.robertwr.com/resurrection.pdf

Major1 said:

Surely you know that Lazarus was risen by Christ but then he did die some years later. At his death his spirit went to be with the Lord in heaven as does all believers. His body remains in the grave waiting on the Rapture. You do not seem to know the event that happened to Lazarus my friend. Resurrection refers to putting on a new, glorified body, while re-animation, or resuscitation, mean raising the person in the old, mortal body in which they died. Lazarus was not "resurrected" in the sense that he received a glorified body.

I agree with you that New Test. saints have not be resurrected. That event is the Rapture which you quoted in 1 Thess. 4:15 and I agree with it and you.

Some where you have misunderstood me. I did not say and did not mean to infer the Old Test. saints received a body and went to heaven.

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Thus you admit that this have nothing to do with what you call ''the first phase'' of the resurrection to immortality mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6 .At this point only Jesus have been raised to immortality.

Major1 said:

Surely you know that Lazarus was risen by Christ but then he did die some years later. At his death his spirit went to be with the Lord in heaven as does all believers. His body remains in the grave waiting on the Rapture. You do not seem to know the event that happened to Lazarus my friend. Resurrection refers to putting on a new, glorified body, while re-animation, or resuscitation, mean raising the person in the old, mortal body in which they died. Lazarus was not "resurrected" in the sense that he received a glorified body.

I agree with you that New Test. saints have not be resurrected. That event is the Rapture which you quoted in 1 Thess. 4:15 and I agree with it and you.

Some where you have misunderstood me. I did not say and did not mean to infer the Old Test. saints received a bodyand went to heaven.

Click to expand...

Thus you admit that this have nothing to do with what you call ''the first phase'' of the resurrection to immortality mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6 .

Major1 said:

This is a common mistake. Some times it is on purpose when someone wants to reject the Rapture and then MAKE THE SCRIPTURES SAY WHAT THEY WANT THEM TO SAY.

I have learned over the years to accept the Bible as it is written and do not try to explain it, just believe it.

When we read the quote you posted from Matthew 24:29-31 what we see clearly written is...........
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days.....................".

What is in view in Matthew 24:29-31 my brother is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, which IS NOT WHAT WE SEE IN 1 Thess. 4:17.

1 Thess. 4:17 is the Rapture which is 7 years before the 2nd Coming of Christ.

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Do you know what the sentence UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD means ?Hint, it surely does not mean BEFORE His Coming.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain UNTO the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.